Opinions on Chakotay & Seven

[teya]

I doubt that I've learned my lesson. The title of the thread is "Opinions on Chakotay & Seven," and that is what I posted. When I post THE truth, I'll be sure to let you know by cutting it with baby powder and handing out McDonald's bendy straws.

So, in other words, when you say "the truth is" you don't really mean it.

Thanks for that clarification, professor!

As I said, it's been years since I took a lit course. I'm not really up on what's going on in liberal arts academia these days.

 

[AuntKate]

I doubt that I've learned my lesson. The title of the thread is "Opinions on Chakotay & Seven," and that is what I posted. When I post THE truth, I'll be sure to let you know by cutting it with baby powder and handing out McDonald's bendy straws.

So, in other words, when you say "the truth is" you don't really mean it.

Thanks for that clarification, professor!

As I said, it's been years since I took a lit course. I'm not really up on what's going on in liberal arts academia these days.

When I say "the truth is," I mean the truth as I see it, based on my interpretation of what I saw on the screen. You may have interpreted the scene differently and therefore not agree with me. Suit yourself. I believe the term you use is YMMV.

There is no right or wrong interpretation of literature or any other art form. There are some that are more easily defended than others and some that are more accepted than others. That I have chosen a more easily defended/accepted interpretation is serendipity, don't you think?

No one knows THE truth, except you apparently.

 

[Guy Gardener]

It's in my belly, and you know how it got there. So what ever it sounds like, it smells like snot and bile.

She practically rapes Kim, then sidebars romance for 2 years?

Was that possibly the first time she failed at succeeding in some task she put her mind to?

Scar tissue.

Are all men, potential romances rated/judged against Kim rejecting her?

 

[teya]

That I have chosen a more easily defended/accepted interpretation is serendipity, don't you think?

If your interpretation is more easily defended then you've not done a particularly good job.

For how long have we debated this? I've yet to find you've made a point I can agree with.

No one knows THE truth, except you apparently.

Again, Professor, since "Endgame" aired, I have been the one arguing that there are different realities for each and every ship and no ship.

You're the one who insists that anything that doesn't fit your qualifications as "adult" or "mature" or "relationship" or "equality" isn't. And you keep proclaiming it as "the truth."

And all those things have been countered, quite easily.

I've never called anything in this argument "the truth"--not even my opinion.

 

[AuntKate]

I'm not upset that you continue to disagree with me, Teya, because I'm not trying to convince you or anyone else that my opinion is right. I'm simply stating my opinion--something that I have every right to do. Nor have I said that my opinion means that you or anyone else are wrong for thinking differently. I've explained that when I said "reality" or "truth" that it was mine alone. In fact, I have repeatedly stated that others might interpret the situation differently. Although I have my preferences, I have no personal investment in any Star Trek relationship one way or the other.

The problem is that you refuse to listen. I have said that your opinion, and anyone else's, has as much validity as mine, yet you continue to hang onto your interpretation of what I said, actually one or two words, to the point of harassment. I'm beginning to think that you don't like me.

And I am sure that everyone else is as tired of this pointless debate as I am.

 

[teya]

The problem is that you refuse to listen.

Getting personal, aren't you? If you have nothing vested in this, then why do you care whether I understand or agree with your opinion on "the truth"?

It seems that what the problem really is is that you have to have the last word.

And now I'll let you have it, since you seem to want it so badly.

 

[AuntKate]

The problem is that you refuse to listen.

Getting personal, aren't you? If you have nothing vested in this, then why do you care whether I understand or agree with your opinion on "the truth"?

It seems that what the problem really is is that you have to have the last word.

And now I'll let you have it, since you seem to want it so badly.

Methinks you got personal first, but then that's my opinion, not necessarily the truth.

 

[kimc]

And I am sure that everyone else is as tired of this pointless debate as I am.

Amen to that! Reading the past several posts has been like watching a Swedish film without subtitles. I suggest a break - put each other on Ignore if you need to. Thanks!

 

[exodus]

Wow, that's a door left wide open!

 

[kimc]

Wow, that's a door left wide open!

** slams door **

Back to topic already...

 

[Da'an]

I just thought of something.

In Unity, Chakotay was hooked up to a mini-collective, he has personal, first-hand experience of what it's like to be part of a collective and so he would be slightly more able to understand and appreciate what Seven's life had been like as a Borg.

This could have potentially tipped the balance in his favor as Seven regarding him as a compatible and suitable life companion.

It's the only thing I can think of that would explain the logic behind such a seemingly mis-matched couple.

(If anyone else had raised this point that in the previous 21 pages of thread, sorry for not reading that far back. )

 

[Brit]

The Choices were bloody limited.

Chakotay? Big shoulders. Practically Inoffensive.
Tuvok? Married.
Tom? Married.
Neelix? Legged it and engaged or married by that point.
Kim? A child who doesn't even know how to please himself god forbid someone else. And look at the numbers. He's a slut. Chakotay might be weighed down by a similar number of dalliances, but his slut coefficient is 1/2 that of Kim since he's twice the babies age.
Icheb? Only Physically younger than Kim. Sure he had bigger balls too, but no fluff on them.
Cremman X? Someone we haven't seen in ten years or have never seen and in either case have absolutely no emotional investment in? That's cheating.

So Robotgirl was either robbing the cradle or being the baby being robbed from some cradle?

The problem is that most of you are only looking at “senior staff.” That doesn’t work for finding Seven a compatible partner any more than it works for finding Harry Kim a compatible character. They have the same problem, and that is an imbalance of experience.

Once you get past just looking at the senior staff there are lots of parings. Seven’s list could include (although not consist entirely of the following.)

Ayala (who fic writers have given the first name Michael, unless it’s M/M slash and then his first name would be Gregory. I like Michael better.)

Walter Baxter
Freddy Bristow
Mortimer Harren
William McKenzie
Kashimuro Nozawa
Lieutenant Rollins
Ensign Vorik
Pablo Baytart
Doug Bronowski

And that is just a partial listing. There could be even more if I had included Maquis or females on the list.

Brit

 

[exodus]

I just thought of something.

In Unity, Chakotay was hooked up to a mini-collective, he has personal, first-hand experience of what it's like to be part of a collective and so he would be slightly more able to understand and appreciate what Seven's life had been like as a Borg.

This could have potentially tipped the balance in his favor as Seven regarding him as a compatible and suitable life companion.

It's the only thing I can think of that would explain the logic behind such a seemingly mis-matched couple.

(If anyone else had raised this point that in the previous 21 pages of thread, sorry for not reading that far back. )

Excellent point added to the debate.

 

[AuntKate]

And I am sure that everyone else is as tired of this pointless debate as I am.

Amen to that! Reading the past several posts has been like watching a Swedish film without subtitles. I suggest a break - put each other on Ignore if you need to. Thanks!

Gladly. You're welcome.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I just thought of something.

In Unity, Chakotay was hooked up to a mini-collective, he has personal, first-hand experience of what it's like to be part of a collective and so he would be slightly more able to understand and appreciate what Seven's life had been like as a Borg.

This could have potentially tipped the balance in his favor as Seven regarding him as a compatible and suitable life companion.

It's the only thing I can think of that would explain the logic behind such a seemingly mis-matched couple.

(If anyone else had raised this point that in the previous 21 pages of thread, sorry for not reading that far back. )

Peyote.

Chakotay ritualistically and religiously uses technology to replicate the shared experience on the "astralplane" previously said to have been created by shamans with their semi-legal desert crack, that is if telepathy/communing had not been impossible in the given universe of our story, rather than psychedelic drugs making people imaginative and giggly like the previous generations of practitioners of his faith had done, that in actuality them all "getting baked" was something more akin to kicking these native Americans up the evolutionary ladder momentarily, not that we have any poof one way or the other considering their "gods" were probably left over stories about visitations from the Preservers hearding people away from meteor strikes, but this 24th Century Indian's forefathers had got by by getting wasted and then babbling about being "one conciousness" with their skyfathers and "animal spirit guides", which just wasn't enough for a modern man who wanted empirical demonstrations (Worf got Khaless to appear to him just by sweating really hard. Now that's FAITH!) that spirit guides were wandering about between all their heads, meanwhile Chuckles who just said no to drugs, because drugs are bad had to one up and reup the old guard by mail ordering a backwired psychotricorder machine which creates a hive mind between a small number of people where they can rgwn use to commune in a virtually real environment for real which is what the Indians from the Ancient West never did do but bullshitted that they did do when they did claim to be invested in their religion, so really Chakotay was shitting on his faith by resetting the foundations of how his people communed since the lie of what was achieved is more real than the truth pf what really happened just like Shannon Janeway deserves a Punch in the Mouth from lying that she was an astronaut, or whosoever began the inspiration source which launched Kathy into Space.

So he was all already all about being Borg-lite, well before the "healing link" Riley used to fix him up and then still in a state of shared sensation with about 5 other free Borg, they all shared a sex act in which Riley and Chakotay were the prime movers... Well, considering where the film cut out, others might have joined in physically while sharing the effects of the experience... Wow. Chakotay would be able to feel himself inside her from her perspective, which really begs the question about no mater how many bodies were involved, considering the shared intellectuality taking note, that this could have as easily been masturbation as much as an orgy.

But with all this on tap, the sexualidiosyncraticgynmastic possibilities, it's a low down dirty shame that I don't expect nothing but one on one vanilla and missionary on a bed with the lights off and no talking from those two once they decide to get busy.

Sex might = Borg to Chakotay, but he was already a into hive minds well befor these blonde ladies tried to lead him up the garden path.

The problem is that most of you are only looking at “senior staff.” That doesn’t work for finding Seven a compatible partner any more than it works for finding Harry Kim a compatible character. They have the same problem, and that is an imbalance of experience.

Once you get past just looking at the senior staff there are lots of parings. Seven’s list could include (although not consist entirely of the following.)

Ayala (who fic writers have given the first name Michael, unless it’s M/M slash and then his first name would be Gregory. I like Michael better.)

Walter Baxter
Freddy Bristow
Mortimer Harren
William McKenzie
Kashimuro Nozawa
Lieutenant Rollins
Ensign Vorik
Pablo Baytart
Doug Bronowski

And that is just a partial listing. There could be even more if I had included Maquis or females on the list.

Brit

What a nice list of "Crewman X" you have there.

They could have used anyone and i would have been happy, even Chakotay, if they just would have shown us how the relationship built up from nothing into something like they did with Tom and B'Elanna.

 

[Brit]

The lack of a childhood with the Borg would be reason enough for Seven’s lack of experience, but there is one more factor. Seven had an emotion damper, so her view of the world and the emotional impact of social interactions, let alone learning to relate to people as friends or even potential lovers was muted if not outright filtered. That had to add to her emotional immaturity.

I don’t think it is realistic to think she could catch up to someone as mature as Chakotay in only four years without said filtering, let alone with it. I cannot suspend my disbelief on that one.

Brit

 

[AuntKate]

The lack of a childhood with the Borg would be reason enough for Seven’s lack of experience, but there is one more factor. Seven had an emotion damper, so her view of the world and the emotional impact of social interactions, let alone learning to relate to people as friends or even potential lovers was muted if not outright filtered. That had to add to her emotional immaturity.

I don’t think it is realistic to think she could catch up to someone as mature as Chakotay in only four years without said filtering, let alone with it. I cannot suspend my disbelief on that one.

Brit

Excellent point. Another factor is the impact of the dampener's removal. There is an assumption that this is a good thing, that she will be experiencing nothing but "good" emotions. However, she would also be experiencing bad or negative emotions with more clarity and depth than ever before. The removal of the dampener would be a double-edged sword.

 

[Brit]

The lack of a childhood with the Borg would be reason enough for Seven’s lack of experience, but there is one more factor. Seven had an emotion damper, so her view of the world and the emotional impact of social interactions, let alone learning to relate to people as friends or even potential lovers was muted if not outright filtered. That had to add to her emotional immaturity.

I don’t think it is realistic to think she could catch up to someone as mature as Chakotay in only four years without said filtering, let alone with it. I cannot suspend my disbelief on that one.

Brit

Excellent point. Another factor is the impact of the dampener's removal. There is an assumption that this is a good thing, that she will be experiencing nothing but "good" emotions. However, she would also be experiencing bad or negative emotions with more clarity and depth than ever before. The removal of the dampener would be a double-edged sword.

My daughter (FYI who has a BS in Biology and several hours toward a MS in Neurobiology) says that the dampener would have had to be turned off in stages, a little at a time to avoid psychotic reactions.

Brit

 

[Da'an]

What if Seven had been Vulcan, not Human?

 

[exodus]

The lack of a childhood with the Borg would be reason enough for Seven’s lack of experience, but there is one more factor. Seven had an emotion damper, so her view of the world and the emotional impact of social interactions, let alone learning to relate to people as friends or even potential lovers was muted if not outright filtered. That had to add to her emotional immaturity.

I don’t think it is realistic to think she could catch up to someone as mature as Chakotay in only four years without said filtering, let alone with it. I cannot suspend my disbelief on that one.

Brit

Excellent point. Another factor is the impact of the dampener's removal. There is an assumption that this is a good thing, that she will be experiencing nothing but "good" emotions. However, she would also be experiencing bad or negative emotions with more clarity and depth than ever before. The removal of the dampener would be a double-edged sword.

My daughter (FYI who has a BS in Biology and several hours toward a MS in Neurobiology) says that the dampener would have had to be turned off in stages, a little at a time to avoid psychotic reactions.

Brit

I'm hoping you worded this wrong.

I'm wondering how many case studies your daughter has done on people with emotional dampners?