The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

[Anticitizen]

And to do that you need the precise position of the Narada and the ship to arrive at the percise time the Narada exits which would be pretty hard to get EXACTLY right, and it would have to be exactly or it wouldn't work.

That's open to pure speculation (for both of us). Nero was able to somehow calculate where Spock was going to show up, even though Nero went through the wormhole first - and I would venture a guess that Spock, the Vulcan scientist, is smarter than a Romulan miner.

Or he could have made peace with the fact that THERE IS NO WAY IN HELL HE COULD PULL IT OFF, and that trying could cause MORE DAMAGE to the timeline instead of fixing it.

Whether he could pull it off or not is also speculative. I still maintain that it's out of character for him not to try. He doubted he could built a tricorder interface device out of stone knives and bearskins in order to save the future, but pulled it off anyway.

As for causing more damage to the timeline... the planet Vulcan, 47 Klingon warships and six (or seven? don't recall) Starfleet ships have been destroyed... hard to muck things up worse than that. Not to mention the possible future that's now been created... one possibility is a rapid militarization of the Federation and the Klingon and Romulan empires... or the Romulans deciding to attack when they discover the Federation has been weakened by Nero's attack (and is in fact now missing one of its key planets and all its resources).

If it were me, Earth had been destroyed, and I had Spock's intelligence and capabilities... you bet your britches I'd be slingshotting around the nearest star/heading to the Guardian of Forever ASAP.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

As for causing more damage to the timeline... the planet Vulcan, 47 Klingon warships and six (or seven? don't recall) Starfleet ships have been destroyed... hard to muck things up worse than that. Not to mention the possible future that's now been created... one possibility is a rapid militarization of the Federation and the Klingon and Romulan empires... or the Romulans deciding to attack when they discover the Federation has been weakened by Nero's attack (and is in fact now missing one of its key planets and all its resources).

If it were me, Earth had been destroyed, and I had Spock's intelligence and capabilities... you bet your britches I'd be slingshotting around the nearest star/heading to the Guardian of Forever ASAP.

Then you would be one arrogant person to dictate how the lives of god knows how many people should turn out, I mean yes Spock normally tries to "fix" the timeline but he may have realized that there is know way of knowing what trying to fix it will do, yes it could return to normal or it could cause the Kelvin to be lost with all hands including James T. Kirk that would pretty much fuck things up, or Nero could get away to Romulan space without the damage the Kelvin inflicted by ramming it.

Plus even if the old timeline is erased then the Prime universe still exists unless it never occured to the people complaning about the history change can't accept the fact that according to Star Trek's own multiverse rules there must exist a universe exactly the same as the prime universe EXCEPT that Spock and Nero were not pulled into the black hole.

 

[Anticitizen]

As for causing more damage to the timeline... the planet Vulcan, 47 Klingon warships and six (or seven? don't recall) Starfleet ships have been destroyed... hard to muck things up worse than that. Not to mention the possible future that's now been created... one possibility is a rapid militarization of the Federation and the Klingon and Romulan empires... or the Romulans deciding to attack when they discover the Federation has been weakened by Nero's attack (and is in fact now missing one of its key planets and all its resources).

If it were me, Earth had been destroyed, and I had Spock's intelligence and capabilities... you bet your britches I'd be slingshotting around the nearest star/heading to the Guardian of Forever ASAP.

Then you would be one arrogant person to dictate how the lives of god knows how many people should turn out, I mean yes Spock normally tries to "fix" the timeline but he may have realized that there is know way of knowing what trying to fix it will do, yes it could return to normal or it could cause the Kelvin to be lost with all hands including James T. Kirk that would pretty much fuck things up, or Nero could get away to Romulan space without the damage the Kelvin inflicted by ramming it.

Plus even if the old timeline is erased then the Prime universe still exists unless it never occured to the people complaning about the history change can't accept the fact that according to Star Trek's own multiverse rules there must exist a universe exactly the same as the prime universe EXCEPT that Spock and Nero were not pulled into the black hole.

Commas are your friend.

There's no real evidence that this timeline exists alongside the old one, but we've been over this already.

I'm not suggesting that they do what I'm talking about in the next film. I think it would be silly to do so. I'm just saying it's something Spock would do, given his behavior in prior Trek. That's part of what makes the whole time travel aspect of the film somewhat detracting in my opinion.

As for putting Baby Kirk in danger, etc, you could distract the Kelvin with a phone distress call beforehand... none of this is the point, however.

 

[trevanian]

As for causing more damage to the timeline... the planet Vulcan, 47 Klingon warships and six (or seven? don't recall) Starfleet ships have been destroyed... hard to muck things up worse than that. Not to mention the possible future that's now been created... one possibility is a rapid militarization of the Federation and the Klingon and Romulan empires... or the Romulans deciding to attack when they discover the Federation has been weakened by Nero's attack (and is in fact now missing one of its key planets and all its resources).

If it were me, Earth had been destroyed, and I had Spock's intelligence and capabilities... you bet your britches I'd be slingshotting around the nearest star/heading to the Guardian of Forever ASAP.

Then you would be one arrogant person to dictate how the lives of god knows how many people should turn out, I mean yes Spock normally tries to "fix" the timeline but he may have realized that there is know way of knowing what trying to fix it will do, yes it could return to normal or it could cause the Kelvin to be lost with all hands including James T. Kirk that would pretty much fuck things up, or Nero could get away to Romulan space without the damage the Kelvin inflicted by ramming it.
.

To me this way you are arguing the point really speaks to how weak the premise of the pic must be, that it all hinges on 'idiot plotting' requiring a major character to be inactive in the exact kind of situation he would NEVER be inactive.

If SubPrimeSpock is really a changed character with age, one content to live with the new timeline or however you describe it (I'm not wanting to hear the quantum universes thing, that is TNG much more than TOS and I don't give a crap about TNG), then the movie should have been about what changed his perspective, which is a huge switch from the character I know of.

And anybody messing with time would have to be that 'arrogant' ... or perhaps another word would be in order there. Maybe if the situation was a Jewish person who could do something back in time that would might save 6 million jews from camp deaths and the like ... would he be arrogant to risk however many other millions? Prob'ly, but that wouldn't invalidate his choice in the slightest.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

As for causing more damage to the timeline... the planet Vulcan, 47 Klingon warships and six (or seven? don't recall) Starfleet ships have been destroyed... hard to muck things up worse than that. Not to mention the possible future that's now been created... one possibility is a rapid militarization of the Federation and the Klingon and Romulan empires... or the Romulans deciding to attack when they discover the Federation has been weakened by Nero's attack (and is in fact now missing one of its key planets and all its resources).

If it were me, Earth had been destroyed, and I had Spock's intelligence and capabilities... you bet your britches I'd be slingshotting around the nearest star/heading to the Guardian of Forever ASAP.

Then you would be one arrogant person to dictate how the lives of god knows how many people should turn out, I mean yes Spock normally tries to "fix" the timeline but he may have realized that there is know way of knowing what trying to fix it will do, yes it could return to normal or it could cause the Kelvin to be lost with all hands including James T. Kirk that would pretty much fuck things up, or Nero could get away to Romulan space without the damage the Kelvin inflicted by ramming it.

Plus even if the old timeline is erased then the Prime universe still exists unless it never occured to the people complaning about the history change can't accept the fact that according to Star Trek's own multiverse rules there must exist a universe exactly the same as the prime universe EXCEPT that Spock and Nero were not pulled into the black hole.

Commas are your friend.

There's no real evidence that this timeline exists alongside the old one, but we've been over this already.

I'm not suggesting that they do what I'm talking about in the next film. I think it would be silly to do so. I'm just saying it's something Spock would do, given his behavior in prior Trek. That's part of what makes the whole time travel aspect of the film somewhat detracting in my opinion.

As for putting Baby Kirk in danger, etc, you could distract the Kelvin with a phone distress call beforehand... none of this is the point, however.

I'm not saying the old timeline wasn't erased I'm saying it still exists as a quantum reality where Spock and Nero DON'T go back in time were you paying attention to Parallels?

Oh trevanian and Anticitizen as to the it would be in character for Spock Prime to fix the timeline argument well the timeline wasn't exactly right at the end of Yesteryear and yet Spock wasn't trying to bend over backwards to save his poor sehlat, so there is a slight precedence here.

 

[Anticitizen]

I'm not saying the old timeline wasn't erased I'm saying it still exists as a quantum reality where Spock and Nero DON'T go back in time were you paying attention to Parallels?

Oh trevanian and Anticitizen as to the it would be in character for Spock Prime to fix the timeline argument well the timeline wasn't exactly right at the end of Yesteryear and yet Spock wasn't trying to bend over backwards to save his poor sehlat, so there is a slight precedence here.

Parallels - deals with alternate realities similar to the Mirror Universe, not time travel.

Yesteryear - ain't canon.

On the side of the fence where there is one timeline that gets changed, we have Operation: Earth, Tomorrow is Yesterday, City on the Edge of Forever, Yesterday's Enterprise, First Contact (the film), Trials and Tribble-ations, Endgame, etc etc etc.

 

[Ovation]

On the side of the fence where there is one timeline that gets changed, we have Operation: Earth, Tomorrow is Yesterday, City on the Edge of Forever

perhaps

, Yesterday's Enterprise, First Contact (the film),

Nope and nope.

Trials and Tribble-ations,

Perhaps.

Endgame,

Nope.

etc etc etc.

I'm sure there are other examples of "unfixed" timelines in there too.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

I'm not saying the old timeline wasn't erased I'm saying it still exists as a quantum reality where Spock and Nero DON'T go back in time were you paying attention to Parallels?

Oh trevanian and Anticitizen as to the it would be in character for Spock Prime to fix the timeline argument well the timeline wasn't exactly right at the end of Yesteryear and yet Spock wasn't trying to bend over backwards to save his poor sehlat, so there is a slight precedence here.

Parallels - deals with alternate realities similar to the Mirror Universe, not time travel.

I WASN'T talking about time travel I was talking about alternate realities, like the alternate reality which is exactly like and is for all intents and purposes the Prime universe except that Spock and Nero weren't pulled into the black hole and as such DID NOT go back in time.

 

[Anticitizen]

On the side of the fence where there is one timeline that gets changed, we have Operation: Earth, Tomorrow is Yesterday, City on the Edge of Forever

perhaps

, Yesterday's Enterprise, First Contact (the film),

Nope and nope.

Perhaps.

Endgame,

Nope.

etc etc etc.

I'm sure there are other examples of "unfixed" timelines in there too.

What do you mean? I wasn't arguing whether they were properly fixed 100% or not, I was saying these episodes argue for one timeline, not multiples co-existing. If going back in time didn't effect the future, but instead simply branched off to another, 'parallel' timeline, then there's be no point in doing it.

I WASN'T talking about time travel I was talking about alternate realities, like the alternate reality which is exactly like and is for all intents and purposes the Prime universe except that Spock and Nero weren't pulled into the black hole and as such DID NOT go back in time.

Then I'm afraid I don't see the point you're trying to make, because Spock and Nero obviously did go back in time...

 

[Hartzilla2007]

h
I WASN'T talking about time travel I was talking about alternate realities, like the alternate reality which is exactly like and is for all intents and purposes the Prime universe except that Spock and Nero weren't pulled into the black hole and as such DID NOT go back in time.

Then I'm afraid I don't see the point you're trying to make, because Spock and Nero obviously did go back in time...

Yes in the universe that Trek XI takes place in, but in another universe in the Trek multiverse they didn't.

It's like this you come up to a fork in the road, in one universe you go right in another universe the branches off of yours you go left and both the universe where you go right and the newly created one where you go left both continue on their merry little ways both continuing to existing.

Now knowing this and the fact that Trek has shown that this is the case in the existance of alternate realities in their multiverse we now apply this factor to NuTrek, for this pupose I will refer to one universe as Abrams 1 and Abrams 2 to avoid confusion.

Now

In the universe I am refering to as Abrams 1, in the year 2387 the Hobus star's supernova is threatening the universe. Spock Prime prevents this by detonating a drop of red matter in the star and thus causing a black hole that destroys said star, after this Spock and Nero the pissed off Romulan get pulled into the black hole and wind up in the past which is altered by Nero.

Now for the mind blowing part.

In the universe I'm calling Abrams 2 an alternate reality the branches off from Abrams 1, Spock Prime destroys Hobus, he and Nero are not pulled into the black hole and do NOT go back in time and Nero does NOT fuck up the time line.

In conclusion becuase a newly created universe branches off from the Prime universe inwhich Spock and Nero DON'T go back in time, the Prime Universe still exists and we can stop arguing about it.

This can also explain why Spock Prime doesn't try to restore the timeline becuase in the century since his last trip through time he picked he read up on quantum realities and how they are formed and figured his old timeline is still around in some form and figured trying to fix it probably wasn't worth the trouble since in some form IT STILL EXISTS.

Another possible theory is that since preventing the changes Nero inacted would be problematic at best and IMPOSSIBLE at worst and decided to affect damage control to the timeline ie possibly taking steps to make sure Kirk is the Enterprise's captain and finding a new home for the Vulcans to try to get the timeline at least close to its original state.

 

[trevanian]

Oh trevanian and Anticitizen as to the it would be in character for Spock Prime to fix the timeline argument well the timeline wasn't exactly right at the end of Yesteryear and yet Spock wasn't trying to bend over backwards to save his poor sehlat, so there is a slight precedence here.

That was a PERSONAL loss, not a universe-changing one. HUGE difference. needs of the many, you know ...

 

[Anticitizen]

h
I WASN'T talking about time travel I was talking about alternate realities, like the alternate reality which is exactly like and is for all intents and purposes the Prime universe except that Spock and Nero weren't pulled into the black hole and as such DID NOT go back in time.

Then I'm afraid I don't see the point you're trying to make, because Spock and Nero obviously did go back in time...

Yes in the universe that Trek XI takes place in, but in another universe in the Trek multiverse they didn't.

It's like this you come up to a fork in the road, in one universe you go right in another universe the branches off of yours you go left and both the universe where you go right and the newly created one where you go left both continue of their merry little ways both continuing to existing.

Now knowing this and the fact that Trek has shown that this is the case in the existance of alternate realities in their multiverse we now apply this factor to NuTrek, for this pupose I will refer to one universe as Abrams 1 and Abrams 2 to avoid confusion.

Now

In the universe I am refering to as Abrams 1, in the year 2387 the Hobus star's supernova is threatening the universe. Spock Prime prevents this by detonating a drop of red matter in the star and thus causing a black hole that destroys said star, after this Spock and Nero the pissed off Romulan get pulled into the black hole and wind up in the past which is altered by Nero.

Now for the mind blowing part.

In the universe I'm calling Abrams 2 an alternate reality the branches off from Abrams 1, Spock Prime destroys Hobus, he and Nero are not pulled into the black hole and do NOT go back in time and Nero does NOT fuck up the time line.

In conclusion becuase a newly created universe branches off from the Prime universe inwhich Spock and Nero DON'T go back in time, the Prime Universe still exists and we can stop arguing about it.

That's all very interesting, but the movie suggests none of this.

This can also explain why Spock Prime doesn't try to restore the timeline becuase in the century since his last trip through time he picked he read up on quantum realities and how they are formed and figured his old timeline is still around in some form and figured trying to fix it probably wasn't worth the trouble since in some form IT STILL EXISTS.

Then why do anything?

Ah, well, I can put off washing the dishes then, because in an alternate reality, I already have. Or at least used paper plates.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Then I'm afraid I don't see the point you're trying to make, because Spock and Nero obviously did go back in time...

Yes in the universe that Trek XI takes place in, but in another universe in the Trek multiverse they didn't.

It's like this you come up to a fork in the road, in one universe you go right in another universe the branches off of yours you go left and both the universe where you go right and the newly created one where you go left both continue of their merry little ways both continuing to existing.

Now knowing this and the fact that Trek has shown that this is the case in the existance of alternate realities in their multiverse we now apply this factor to NuTrek, for this pupose I will refer to one universe as Abrams 1 and Abrams 2 to avoid confusion.

Now

In the universe I am refering to as Abrams 1, in the year 2387 the Hobus star's supernova is threatening the universe. Spock Prime prevents this by detonating a drop of red matter in the star and thus causing a black hole that destroys said star, after this Spock and Nero the pissed off Romulan get pulled into the black hole and wind up in the past which is altered by Nero.

Now for the mind blowing part.

In the universe I'm calling Abrams 2 an alternate reality the branches off from Abrams 1, Spock Prime destroys Hobus, he and Nero are not pulled into the black hole and do NOT go back in time and Nero does NOT fuck up the time line.

In conclusion becuase a newly created universe branches off from the Prime universe inwhich Spock and Nero DON'T go back in time, the Prime Universe still exists and we can stop arguing about it.

That's all very interesting, but the movie suggests none of this.

Nothing except the rules handed down by previous incarnations of Trek that your argument in the case of time travel need to have occured to have an argument.

This can also explain why Spock Prime doesn't try to restore the timeline becuase in the century since his last trip through time he picked he read up on quantum realities and how they are formed and figured his old timeline is still around in some form and figured trying to fix it probably wasn't worth the trouble since in some form IT STILL EXISTS.

Then why do anything?

Ah, well, I can put off washing the dishes then, because in an alternate reality, I already have. Or at least used paper plates.

Becuase Spock is not a total bastard who only helps people if it's good for his universe hence my other theory about damage control in place of trying to do something he does not have the equipment to pull off.

 

[archeryguy1701]

How many episodes did Spock actually express a desire/ need to go back and fix messed up timelines? Just because Spock has been involved with crews that would fix the timeline when given the chance doesn't mean that he would actually do it when given an opportunity to do so on his own. I'm failing to see how this is Spock doing something out of character.

Also, there is just as much Star Trek evidence to support parallel timelines as there is to support one replacable timeline. Any episode where people come from the future to fix timeline screwups... if the timeline got replaced, then they should have been erased and never realise that there was a problem. Carpenter Street from Enterprise- humanity from anytime after the Xindi arrived in the past should have ceased to exist because as soon as the Xindi arrived, they should have changed the timeline, which would have prevented anyone from being alive enough to go back in time to stop them. At this point, there is no real way to argue which way or theory is right, because Star Trek has supported both of them, even at the exact same time!

 

[trevanian]

How many episodes did Spock actually express a desire/ need to go back and fix messed up timelines? Just because Spock has been involved with crews that would fix the timeline when given the chance doesn't mean that he would actually do it when given an opportunity to do so on his own. I'm failing to see how this is Spock doing something out of character.

If Spock hasn't learned the value of the decisions made in those past instances (whether he participated in the decision-making process or not), then he isn't even the sum of his parts, and he probably wouldn't have invested himself so in all the reunification crap, which on the surface is probably as illogical as 'fixing' a timestream, since vulcs and roms split apart by choice, and forcing or arranging a reconciliation would be inflicting his own vision on two cultures.

And the first time that time travel was brought up on TREK, it was Spock who expressed mild interest in exploring it, ("we CAN go back in time") while Kirk was the cautious one ("We may risk it someday" or words to that effect, at the end of NAKED TIME.)

 

[archeryguy1701]

How many episodes did Spock actually express a desire/ need to go back and fix messed up timelines? Just because Spock has been involved with crews that would fix the timeline when given the chance doesn't mean that he would actually do it when given an opportunity to do so on his own. I'm failing to see how this is Spock doing something out of character.

If Spock hasn't learned the value of the decisions made in those past instances (whether he participated in the decision-making process or not), then he isn't even the sum of his parts, and he probably wouldn't have invested himself so in all the reunification crap, which on the surface is probably as illogical as 'fixing' a timestream, since vulcs and roms split apart by choice, and forcing or arranging a reconciliation would be inflicting his own vision on two cultures.

Was there any value in those past decisions? Why should Spock be the one to decide that his timeline is more right than the one that is currently existing? What if the "real" timeline is just the result of some other future person screwing up and creating it? Then Spock would be going back in time to restore a timeline that wasn't meant to be in the first place. If Spock follows the ideology of "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one", then he is forced to ask who is more important: the single life that remembers the way that things used to be or the trillions of lives that have now taken a new course. Who is he to say that they have no right to live their new lives?

And the first time that time travel was brought up on TREK, it was Spock who expressed mild interest in exploring it, ("we CAN go back in time") while Kirk was the cautious one ("We may risk it someday" or words to that effect, at the end of NAKED TIME.)

So what you're saying is that it was Spock who initially was OK with going back in time and jacking things up?

 

[number6]

It's not like Spock had a choice. His ship got pulled into a black hole he created in trying to contain the supernova. He was immediately captured by Nero, who by that time had already drastically altered the timeline they're both now in.

He captured Spock, took the ship with the Red Matter, marroned him on a planet and destroyed Vulcan. Since he's now stuck in this alternate timeline/reality and in the past, I am not sure how easy it would be for Spock to use 23rd century tech to get back to his own time and reality or fix what Nero did. Young Spock destroyed the Jellyfish and the remaining red matter in his attempt to destroy Nero's ship. I don't think it's as simple as people would think.

 

[trevanian]

Was there any value in those past decisions? Why should Spock be the one to decide that his timeline is more right than the one that is currently existing? What if the "real" timeline is just the result of some other future person screwing up and creating it? Then Spock would be going back in time to restore a timeline that wasn't meant to be in the first place.

Usually, he's the guy who just KNOWS.

Look at TVH (if you must, I prefer not to.) They actually rewrote the figure out about the whales thing so that Kirk makes the declaration about prepping for time travel, but Spock is the guy who figures everything out and basically leaves Kirk with only a declaration to make.

In the novels (which apparently affected the screenwriters signficantly, so it could constitute more of an argument than usual for those who keep waving the CANON around), Spock's part in time travel seems to be the guy who knows or figures it out too. I'm thinking ENTROPY EFFECT and KILLING TIME, though there are tons more I'm sure.

Your points are fine for philosophy, and for a non-franchise storytelling, I'd go so far as to think them commendable (think how much a little bit more of this would have helped THE FINAL COUNTDOWN.) But for TREK, it's a wrong call, because we've seen it different ... and not just as a plot point, but when things mattered, as evidenced upthread.

 

[Ovation]

What do you mean? I wasn't arguing whether they were properly fixed 100% or not, I was saying these episodes argue for one timeline, not multiples co-existing. If going back in time didn't effect the future, but instead simply branched off to another, 'parallel' timeline, then there's be no point in doing it.

Not all of your examples actually support "one timeline". Here is the best summation of what I mean that I've found (I didn't write it but I find it makes the most sense--it is not the most "natural" way of viewing the time travel stories in Trek but if one examines them closely enough, it is the most logical).

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Was there any value in those past decisions? Why should Spock be the one to decide that his timeline is more right than the one that is currently existing? What if the "real" timeline is just the result of some other future person screwing up and creating it? Then Spock would be going back in time to restore a timeline that wasn't meant to be in the first place.

Usually, he's the guy who just KNOWS.

Look at TVH (if you must, I prefer not to.) They actually rewrote the figure out about the whales thing so that Kirk makes the declaration about prepping for time travel, but Spock is the guy who figures everything out and basically leaves Kirk with only a declaration to make.

In the novels (which apparently affected the screenwriters signficantly, so it could constitute more of an argument than usual for those who keep waving the CANON around), Spock's part in time travel seems to be the guy who knows or figures it out too. I'm thinking ENTROPY EFFECT and KILLING TIME, though there are tons more I'm sure.

Your points are fine for philosophy, and for a non-franchise storytelling, I'd go so far as to think them commendable (think how much a little bit more of this would have helped THE FINAL COUNTDOWN.) But for TREK, it's a wrong call, because we've seen it different ... and not just as a plot point, but when things mattered, as evidenced upthread.

Except that by using novel examples you open the door for my counter agument using the Crucible trilogy.

You see in the Spock Crucible book Spock reviews some of his trips
through time and concludes that he has altered the timeline in the past.

An example he gives is Yesteryear (which for the purposes of this novel happened). Spock points out that after returning froma trip through the Guardian of Forever he finds himself in a timeline where he dies as a kid and an Andorian named Thelin takes his place in the grand scheme of things.

Spock figures out that the only reason he gets to live to adulthood his to go back in time and alter history to make it happen not correct history since the only way he can live is through the use of time travel.

Now he does this and he goes over the aftermath, which is that his sehlat died earlier then it should have and Thelin gets blown up at a future date all so that he could exist through time tampering.

The other example he gives is interestingly enough Star Trek IV where their trip to pick up some whales alters things in that they had to use time travel to get them so things didn't go as they would have gone with the proper flow of histoy and there no way of knowing how things would have otherwise turned out.