Circle trilogy only great if you care about what happens to Bajor?

[TheGodBen]

Nana Visitor and Marc Alaimo did have excellent chemistry, and the writers exploited this to good effect in season four especially, I thought, and occasionally later on, though they were wise enough to realize that they could not take this relationship very far toward actual romance.

Apparently Ira Behr did want to put Kira into a romantic situation with Dukat but Visitor vehemently opposed him for months and said she would refuse to do it because Kira would never get involved with "Hitler". Eventually Behr settled for Dukat sleeping with Kira's mother during the occupation, and thus Wrongs Darker Than Death or Night was born. I have to agree with Visitor on that, Kira sleeping with Dukat would have been all wrong.

 

[JustKate]

^ On sooooooo many levels.

 

[flemm]

Apparently Ira Behr did want to put Kira into a romantic situation with Dukat but Visitor vehemently opposed him for months and said she would refuse to do it because Kira would never get involved with "Hitler". Eventually Behr settled for Dukat sleeping with Kira's mother during the occupation, and thus Wrongs Darker Than Death or Night was born. I have to agree with Visitor on that, Kira sleeping with Dukat would have been all wrong.

Yeah, you can tell the writers are toying with the idea in season four, at which point Dukat's character is going through a fairly mellow and even semi-heroic phase, battling the Klingons.

Nana Visitor was absolutely right, though, it would have been a huge mistake, especially considering how Dukat's character went on to develop. I suppose the character might have had a more redemptive arc had he become involved with Kira, but regardless I much prefer that this was avoided.

Wrongs Darker Than Death or Night was fine, though. It just added another layer of creepyness to Dukat's obsession with the Bajorans and Kira in particular. Also, it allowed Kira to suffer some more, just to be sure she had enough pain and sorrow to overcome on her way to WYLB

 

[startrekwatcher]

The whole Dukat/Kira dynamic actually had its birth in "The Maquis II" according to Alaimo when he decided on his own to cast a glance towards Kira while they were in the runabout. Alaimo really lobbied for that romance and the writers toyed with it.

 

[flemm]

The whole Dukat/Kira dynamic actually had its birth in "The Maquis II" according to Alaimo when he decided on his own to cast a glance towards Kira while they were in the runabout. Alaimo really lobbied for that romance and the writers toyed with it.

Interesting, I had never heard that. Sounds similar to how Odo's unrequited love was first suggested to the writers by Rene Auberjonois' decision to play a scene that way in some early episode, I think during the Kira/Bareil romance.

 

[DevilEyes]

The whole Dukat/Kira dynamic actually had its birth in "The Maquis II" according to Alaimo when he decided on his own to cast a glance towards Kira while they were in the runabout. Alaimo really lobbied for that romance and the writers toyed with it.

Interesting, I had never heard that. Sounds similar to how Odo's unrequited love was first suggested to the writers by Rene Auberjonois' decision to play a scene that way in some early episode, I think during the Kira/Bareil romance.

Visitor was definitely right, getting involved with Dukat would be so out of character for Kira, it would be throwing away her intergrity. I am more surprised that, as far as I've heard, both Visitor and Auberjonois were against Kira and Odo getting together. What were their reasons?

 

[TheGodBen]

Interesting, I had never heard that. Sounds similar to how Odo's unrequited love was first suggested to the writers by Rene Auberjonois' decision to play a scene that way in some early episode, I think during the Kira/Bareil romance.

I think you're referring to the scene in The Collaborator where Kira first admits to Odo that she loves Bariel and Odo gives a shocked/pained expression, something Gary Holland (the co-writer) said was not in the script and he was pleasantly surprised by it.

And I can understand Visitor and Auberjonois not wanting Kira and Odo getting together, some of the most poignant love stories out there are those which are not consummated. I'm very torn on the issue, on the one hand I liked them getting together and on the other hand it might have been a sweeter tale had it not happened.

 

[Captrek]

And I can understand Visitor and Auberjonois not wanting Kira and Odo getting together, some of the most poignant love stories out there are those which are not consummated. I'm very torn on the issue, on the one hand I liked them getting together and on the other hand it might have been a sweeter tale had it not happened.

I wasn’t a big fan of that romance either.

TV writers like to do that, I guess. Fans like it. Go to a forum for just about any popular TV series and you’ll find users with banners in their signatures proclaiming their desire for Character X and Character Y to get together. Hence we get nonsensical pairings like Troi+Worf, Jadzia+Worf, Torres+Paris, Chakotay+Seven, Spock+Uhura... and Odo+Kira.

Odo had often indicated a complete inability to understand, if not outright disdain for, “the human need to couple.” Naturally. Our drive for sex and partnership is a product of hundreds of millions of years of evolution in a world where sexual reproduction and parenting were the way to ensure the survival of one’s genes. Shapeshifters don’t reproduce sexually, and there’s no indication that they had ancestors who did, so where would such a drive come from in Odo? Shapeshifters don’t even have sexually erogenous zones that can be physically stimulated by a solid.

I’m currently rewatching the series. Through the first two seasons, it is well established that these two characters deeply care for and respect each other. In “The Search, Part II” the relationship started to develop as something really special. From this point on, I think the writers should have gradually developed the relationship into something like what Picard and Guinan shared, a deep bond that is “beyond friendship, beyond family,” but in no way sexual or romantic. I think that would have been more believable, more interesting, and more compelling than the heavily overused “take a popular female character and a popular male character, tease the audience for a few years by giving one of them an unrequited love for the other, then make them a happy couple” formula we end up getting.

 

[Tulaberry whine]

I don't understand how people can view the Bajorans as - of all things - whiney. Yes, they had just driven a spiteful occupier off of their home world and with literally nothing left but their anger, grieving and trauma had turned on each other, but this has happened time and again in human history. Of course, it is rarely reported on in the media or even taught in schools because it usually doesn't fit in well with the narrative of successful wars or liberation (the happily ever after bit). I thought this was a great (and brave) place to start with the Bajorans.

Now if the writers of DS9 were going to be honest to the premise of the show the scars of the occupation could not just be papered over with a 'very special episode'. Consequently, the Bajorans were at various points shown to be angry, resentful, petty and traumatised - I still can't think of an episode where they come across as 'whiney', feel free to point some out.

(Of course, when I watch an episode like Ensign Ro I'm not thinking the leader of the refugee camp (who doesn't even have enough blankets for the people in his camp) is 'whiney' because he's critical of the Federation for not doing anything to help.)

My suspicion is because the character of Kira - the main Bajoran on the show - was not conventional, a stereotypical victim and sympathetic, many people in turn were not sympathetic towards the Bajorans as a race.

 

[DevilEyes]

And I can understand Visitor and Auberjonois not wanting Kira and Odo getting together, some of the most poignant love stories out there are those which are not consummated. I'm very torn on the issue, on the one hand I liked them getting together and on the other hand it might have been a sweeter tale had it not happened.

I wasn’t a big fan of that romance either.

TV writers like to do that, I guess. Fans like it. Go to a forum for just about any popular TV series and you’ll find users with banners in their signatures proclaiming their desire for Character X and Character Y to get together. Hence we get nonsensical pairings like Troi+Worf, Jadzia+Worf, Torres+Paris, Chakotay+Seven, Spock+Uhura... and Odo+Kira.

Leaving Kira and Odo aside for a moment, what exactly is "nonsensical" about Spock and Uhura?

It's interesting, to say the least, that you have listed most of the interspecies relationships in Star Trek.

I guess by that logic, Spock is a nonsensical creature by himself, since his existance is based on a "nonsensical" marriage of Sarek and Amanda.

Odo had often indicated a complete inability to understand, if not outright disdain for, “the human need to couple.” Naturally. Our drive for sex and partnership is a product of hundreds of millions of years of evolution in a world where sexual reproduction and parenting were the way to ensure the survival of one’s genes. Shapeshifters don’t reproduce sexually, and there’s no indication that they had ancestors who did, so where would such a drive come from in Odo?

From watching humanoids and learning about them? The essential characteristic of shapeshifters is, after all, that they can imitate everytihng they see.

Shapeshifters don’t even have sexually erogenous zones that can be physically stimulated by a solid.

It has been established that they have the ability to shapeshift into anything and even feel like the thing they have turned into.

 

[flemm]

I think you're referring to the scene in The Collaborator where Kira first admits to Odo that she loves Bariel and Odo gives a shocked/pained expression, something Gary Holland (the co-writer) said was not in the script and he was pleasantly surprised by it.

Yes, that sounds right. Thank you! I guess I must have originally seen that comment on a DVD extra or something of that nature.

And I can understand Visitor and Auberjonois not wanting Kira and Odo getting together, some of the most poignant love stories out there are those which are not consummated. I'm very torn on the issue, on the one hand I liked them getting together and on the other hand it might have been a sweeter tale had it not happened.

I had mixed feelings initially and can understand why the actors would have as well. Sometimes a fully consumated relationship lacks dramatic tension, which leads to soap opera style twists and turns to generate interest. I thought this was the case with the Dax/Worf/Bashir subplot toward the end, for example.

As for Kira and Odo, His Way was okay romantic comedy, with some good character stuff for Odo, but not enough to convince me that having them get together was the right idea. It was Chimera that really sold me on their relationship, and the Kira/Odo material in the final arc certainly brought it home in style.

 

[Captrek]

It's interesting, to say the least, that you have listed most of the interspecies relationships in Star Trek.

Actually, I listed most of the ongoing romances begun in serial Trek, period. The fact that most of those relationships are interspecies has nothing to do with why they don’t work.

Odo had often indicated a complete inability to understand, if not outright disdain for, “the human need to couple.” Naturally. Our drive for sex and partnership is a product of hundreds of millions of years of evolution in a world where sexual reproduction and parenting were the way to ensure the survival of one’s genes. Shapeshifters don’t reproduce sexually, and there’s no indication that they had ancestors who did, so where would such a drive come from in Odo?

From watching humanoids and learning about them? The essential characteristic of shapeshifters is, after all, that they can imitate everytihng they see.

I can buy that coming from Data or the EMH, both of whom long to be more like the humans who surround them. But not from Odo, who has expressed nothing but contempt for that aspect of humanity. It makes sense that a shapeshifter could mimic a human suffering the pain of an unrequited romantic love, but it doesn’t make sense that Odo would do so.

Odo could also learn to eat and drink if he wanted to, but he didn’t. Every time he was offered food or drink, he told the offerer, with a combination of hostility and pride, that he does not eat or drink. He doesn’t want to learn to copy that human behavior. But he wants to act like a lovesick puppy?

 

[flemm]

Odo could also learn to eat and drink if he wanted to, but he didn’t. Every time he was offered food or drink, he told the offerer, with a combination of hostility and pride, that he does not eat or drink. He doesn’t want to learn to copy that human behavior. But he wants to act like a lovesick puppy?

This is a paradox of Odo's character from early on. Necessary Evil explores it in depth. Odo liked to think he was above petty human concerns and bickering, able to objectively analyse them. Where Kira was concerned, however, he was blind.

Odo's all too blatant contempt for human relationships is largely a façade. Partly it is sincere of course, since he would like to truly be aloof and above it all. Partly it is cultivated to fool others, partly to fool himself.

In Odo's dealings with the female changeling, the complete oneness of the Link is compared favorably to the relatively incomplete and unsatisfying couplings of "solids," so the why of Odo's love for Kira is dealt with directly on more than one occasion. There is no immediate or easy answer.

As for the how of Odo's physical relationship with Kira, it must have seemed like a difficult problem for the writers. It had to be dealt with, but how to do it tastefully? Chimera is the masterful answer to both the how and the why. In the end, Kira and Odo's relationship is about love transcending physical form and appearance: "I want to know you... the way you really are." And later in season 7: "It doesn't matter what you look like."

Early on, Odo would have been too insecure, too fearful, to love fully and to expose himself in that way. Kira was too wounded, too needy to be capable of such generosity. These characters evolve through their relationship with one another, which is a sure sign that the relationship has worked from a dramatic point of view imo.

 

[DevilEyes]

It's interesting, to say the least, that you have listed most of the interspecies relationships in Star Trek.

Actually, I listed most of the ongoing romances begun in serial Trek, period. The fact that most of those relationships are interspecies has nothing to do with why they don’t work.

Spock and Uhura have barely started to have a relationship, so I fail to see how you could already know that it "doesn't work". Jadzia/Worf worked just fine and was quite interesting, IMO, with their different personalities and views. The reason why Worf and Troi didn't work is because it came after years and years of Riker/Troi will-they-won't-they, and because Worf and Troi didn't have as much chemistry (and how long did W/T even last? I'd hardly even call it an ongoing romance). I haven't watched much of Voyager (though I am starting to watch it from the beginning now, so this will change) so I can't say anything about Torres/Paris or Chakotay/Seven, but from what I've heard, wasn't the problem people had with Chakotay/Seven similar to Worf/Troi, it happened suddenly after years of Chakotay/Janeway will-they-won't-they?

I thought Kira/Odo were dealt with very well in season 7 - it certainly wasn't a case of a cheesy "they got together and then they were happy ever after".

In any case, I would much rather see Trek writers have the balls to write ongoing relationships between characters in a mature way, rather than fall back on the tired old cliche of disposable one-episode love interests, or the endless will-they-won't-they relationships that never go anywhere, even though the characters are flirting in every single episode, and there is not really a single good reason why those two just don't get together and get it done with. I always found that annoying in TNG, it makes the show look childish. (Riker/Troi are the best example of how far-fetched the whole thing is, 7 seasons of the show and they can't get together, but when the movies came, the writers decided to have them married - and the only reason for that was obviously that weren't contstrained by the format of a series anymore, so they decided to get it finally done with.)

I can buy that coming from Data or the EMH, both of whom long to be more like the humans who surround them. But not from Odo, who has expressed nothing but contempt for that aspect of humanity. It makes sense that a shapeshifter could mimic a human suffering the pain of an unrequited romantic love, but it doesn’t make sense that Odo would do so.

Odo could also learn to eat and drink if he wanted to, but he didn’t. Every time he was offered food or drink, he told the offerer, with a combination of hostility and pride, that he does not eat or drink. He doesn’t want to learn to copy that human behavior. But he wants to act like a lovesick puppy?

Love, especially unrequited love, is not a simple matter of a biological urge, like eating or drinking, and it does not depend on erogenous zones. He might not have felt sexual desire the way humanoids feel it, but he loved her, and I think could naturally feel a desire to be as close as possible to her, to be intimate with her n any way possible. He might not have thought about it at first - and it is not surprising that Kira never thought Odo would have such thoughts or desires - but seeing her relationship with Bareil and realizing that Kira loved him might have made him jealous, might have made him want to be able to be that close to her.

In Odo's dealings with the female changeling, the complete oneness of the Link is compared favorably to the relatively incomplete and unsatisfying couplings of "solids," so the why of Odo's love for Kira is dealt with directly on more than one occasion. There is no immediate or easy answer.

As for the how of Odo's physical relationship with Kira, it must have seemed like a difficult problem for the writers. It had to be dealt with, but how to do it tastefully? Chimera is the masterful answer to both the how and the why. In the end, Kira and Odo's relationship is about love transcending physical form and appearance: "I want to know you... the way you really are." And later in season 7: "It doesn't matter what you look like."

It has been shown unambiguously that shapeshifters are capable of having sex solids-style when they're in a humanoid form (Odo with the woman he fell in love with in Simple Investigation, Odo and the Female Changeling in the 6 season episode in which she thanks him for showing her what solids intimacy is like and compares it unfavourably with the great link), so I don't see the problem with how.

Odo's misanthropy was always partly a mask. After all, he's spent his whole life with the 'solids' and his only real friendships were with them. Naturally, he had a desire to find out more about his own people, but when he did, he was torn about that, too, since they turned out to be what they turned out to be.

There is a very telling moment in one of the episodes (I can't remember for sure but I think it might have been the finale of season 6 when Jadzia and Worf were concerned if they could have children together; I think it might have been during a conversation with Bashir about the subject) that Odo had a very sad/painful look, which revealed that he was concerned that Kira might want a child one day, something he would never be able to give her. There is no indication that Kira ever thought about this or that she even wanted children, but Odo has obviously had thoughts and fears about this. Maybe it even figured in his final decision to leave her and go to the Great Link.

 

[TheGodBen]

As for Kira and Odo, His Way was okay romantic comedy, with some good character stuff for Odo, but not enough to convince me that having them get together was the right idea. It was Chimera that really sold me on their relationship, and the Kira/Odo material in the final arc certainly brought it home in style.

Definitely, I'm not a big fan of His Way but Chimera and Taking Into The Wind fully justified getting the two of them together, and having Odo leave the show in his tux was very sweet. They still could have done some good stuff if they had chosen to keep them apart, but I'm happy with what we got.

 

[flemm]

It has been shown unambiguously that shapeshifters are capable of having sex solids-style when they're in a humanoid form (Odo with the woman he fell in love with in Simple Investigation, Odo and the Female Changeling in the 6 season episode in which she thanks him for showing her what solids intimacy is like and compares it unfavourably with the great link), so I don't see the problem with how.

Agreed as to the question of the changelings ability to experience solid-style intimacy, however that wasn't really the how I was addressing. The unanswered question was more: how can this be fully satisfying for Odo when he is mimicing a behavior that does not come naturally to him, especially when compared to the full connection of the Link? How could his relationship with Kira be fully realized when he cannot be himself with her?

The writers could have just avoided the question, or taken the easy way out by implying or stating that Odo's mimicking of humanoid behavior became so perfect that it was fully satisfying for him (even though we know that Odo has never been able to perfectly mimic even the facial expression of solids). Thankfully the writers did not take the easy way out, and the result was Chimera.

Even here, I don't think the solution to the problem of how do you actually show a deeper form of intimacy between Odo and Kira was obvious to the writers. On a DVD extra, I believe, it is mentioned that the original thought was that Odo would turn into a liquid at the end of Chimera, and that Kira would in effect sink slowly into him. Yuck. And LoL. Anyway, the transcendant experience at the end of Chimera was certainly a creative and very satisfying solution.

 

[DevilEyes]

I've just come across these comments from Nana Visitor quoted in this article about why she didn't want Kira and Odo to get together, and why she later changed her mind:

Actually, Visitor disapproved of the romance story at first; "I'd love to prove, even on TV--even if it's not true!--that men and women can be friends without any kind of involvement," but later felt it was good to make a statement about differences which make no difference (Green "DS9 Denizen" 4-5). She also said, "My favorite aspect of the romance is that we started as friends and it was a mature relationship with understanding and lots of space for each person to be their own person" ("Nana Visitor" 5). And the resolution fit: "I don't want this love story to have a happy ending. I don't want us to be 'Mr. & Mrs. Cleaver' of the station!" ("Love Trek" 1).