The Fist Fights in TOS -- Good or Bad?

[Christopher]

What I found most unrealistic about the fight between Kirk and Khan was how both of them kept changing into completely different people every time the camera switched to a long shot.

To be fair, the resolution and average size of TV sets in the 1960s was lower than it is today, so the stuntman substitutions weren't as obvious. Heck, I grew up in the '70s watching Star Trek on a 13" black and white screen, often with fuzzy and unstable images. (Remember horizontal and vertical hold? How the picture would "flip" if the knob wasn't set just right, because the TV wasn't quite synchronized with the signal? Or was that before your time?) If you'd asked me back then whether it was the actors or their stunt doubles in the long shots, I probably couldn't have told you. It would've been easier for someone with a 25" color TV, say, but still, the image wouldn't have been as sharp as you get on a DVD, even without high-def.

 

[L1A1 Rocker]

I'm not sure realism was ever the point of TOS. Things like the Gorn fight are absolutely fantastic because they're so absurd. They go full circle!

Actually, yes, realism was exactly the point. Roddenberry's whole goal was to create a series that treated science fiction in a serious, adult manner and brought the same naturalism to a series set in the future as you'd find on any cop, lawyer, or doctor show of the period. But realism is relative, and what constituted realism by '60s TV standards seems more staged and artificial to today's more savvy audiences. And admittedly TOS drifted somewhat away from that initial naturalism over the course of its run.

This is what a properly placed "neck chop" (commonly referred to as a ridge hand) will get you:

http://www.gorillafights.com/fightvideos/707/karate-instructor-vs.-pimp.html

Ohh, I feel a little unclean that I watched that. I only did it in the name of science. It looked like the effect was to temporarily incapacitate the opponent and leave him unable to move normally for some moments. I'd imagine it could cause some neck and spinal damage and require hospitalization. And clearly it doesn't induce unconsciousness except maybe for a few short moments; the opponent is more dazed and immobilized. I assume the mechanism of injury/incapacitation is the mechanical shock from such a sharp blow.

Plus it has to be delivered in the right place, I assume. The '60s TV-hero action chop tends to be directed all over the place, and any impact around the neck, shoulders, or upper back will cause instant and prolonged unconsciousness in the target. It's also often a very quick, down-and-up chop rather than the decisive wham on that video -- though Kirk himself tended to go for more of a two-handed hammer strike a lot of the time, so at least it looked like it had some force to it, more than Peter Graves' technique on Mission: Impossible, say.

LOL! The science behind it is to make a sharp strike on the coritid(sp?) artery forcing too much blood into the brain. The result is temporary incapacitation. You basically pass out from a head rush. Very rarely are there any lasting affects.

 

[L1A1 Rocker]

Another "manover" in H to H in TOS that I see often is the simultanious "ear strike". This is actually in the military H2H combat manual of the time. The theroy is to simultaniously strike both ears with the palms of the hands. The desired affect is to create an overpressure of the ear canal and rupture the inner ear infecting intince pain. While the theory is sound, the practice was most often unsuccessful.

 

[Christopher]

LOL! The science behind it is to make a sharp strike on the coritid(sp?) artery forcing too much blood into the brain. The result is temporary incapacitation. You basically pass out from a head rush. Very rarely are there any lasting affects.

Okay, so it's more of a fluidic overpressure shock. I actually used to assume it was about cutting off the blood flow, but I guess it doesn't do that for enough time. Passing out from too much blood pressure -- that's kind of like blacking out from excessive g-forces, I suppose. Glad to hear there are few lasting effects.

So there's some basis in reality to the "Kirk chop" after all -- it just isn't usually depicted quite right. It's rarely to the carotid, and it tends to knock people out considerably longer than it would in real life.

Another "manover" in H to H in TOS that I see often is the simultanious "ear strike". This is actually in the military H2H combat manual of the time. The theroy is to simultaniously strike both ears with the palms of the hands. The desired affect is to create an overpressure of the ear canal and rupture the inner ear infecting intince pain. While the theory is sound, the practice was most often unsuccessful.

Good to know. I've often wondered about that.

 

[AtoZ]

I always saw the fisticuffs in TOS as a result of the "aesthetic" of the time period. Many Western films had barroom fights and characters duking it out, so I tend to see the same thing on Trek as an attempt to live up to a certain expectation of the audience (kind of like how some shows nowadays *have* to have a shaky cam).

You are exactly correct. The fight scenes in TOS are typical of the other TV fight scenes of the day.

Typical, and done better. At least Shatner looked like he could throw a punch with some leverage behind it as opposed to merely throwing some arm. Having been in the boxing game a long time I can spot an arm punch with my eyes closed. Actors do it all of the time. Shat pulls it off not too too bad, all things considered.

Besides, it's the drop kick he's known for.

 

[Candlelight]

Another "manover" in H to H in TOS that I see often is the simultanious "ear strike". This is actually in the military H2H combat manual of the time. The theroy is to simultaniously strike both ears with the palms of the hands. The desired affect is to create an overpressure of the ear canal and rupture the inner ear infecting intince pain. While the theory is sound, the practice was most often unsuccessful.

Which was later banned by the BBC. Thus episode 102 of Blake's 7 was released edited after Avon did exactly that to a security guard.

This is the best fight scene ever:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSHCNTELFI8

Watch at the 20" mark as Kirk uses his ass to knock out the Andorian!

 

[Navaros]

TOS fist fights are great.

Every single Trek show to follow has had fist fights which are 100% every bit as hokey and unbelievable as the TOS fist fights are.

It's dirty pool how TOS gets a bad rap for this but the other equally-bad-in-this-regard Trek shows get a free pass.

Furthermore, unlike the other Trek shows, TOS has epic dread music to go with its fist fights, which makes the TOS fist fights the best by far out of of all Trek.

Additionally, you can actually see what is going on in the TOS fist fights, unlike in the shakycam-ruined Abrams' Trek.

 

[Maurice]

Here´s an example of Western fight that is much quicker than the one in Arena. I guess it is also filmed in the Californian desert (or somewhere nearby).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzVRlRCwowQa

That link doesn't work.

 

[L1A1 Rocker]

Another "manover" in H to H in TOS that I see often is the simultanious "ear strike". This is actually in the military H2H combat manual of the time. The theroy is to simultaniously strike both ears with the palms of the hands. The desired affect is to create an overpressure of the ear canal and rupture the inner ear infecting intince pain. While the theory is sound, the practice was most often unsuccessful.

Which was later banned by the BBC. Thus episode 102 of Blake's 7 was released edited after Avon did exactly that to a security guard.

Damn, I did not know that. Is the scene in the DVD's that are currently avalible?

 

[Ssosmcin]

The fights on Trek were actually really good compared to some of the stuff on TV at the time. As mentioned above, Shatner could throw a stage punch exceptionally well and it looked powerful enough. Obviously, some fights are better than others, but if you watch most other shows of the period, a lot of them are done with even more obvious stunt doubles than Trek, like The Fugitive or Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea.

Voyage had some god-awful stunt doubles, but Richard Basehart had an amazing punch. David Hedison was lame, he has a pussy-punch.

Back on Trek, Tomorrow is Yesterday is a really good fight. No double for Shatner and he's a lot of fun to watch. The dust ups between Kirk and Ron Tracey in Omega Glory are cool too. Morgan Woodward had a dynamic fighting style.

The trouble with TV fights is the outright fantasy of them. You ever punch a guy in the face? Most often you'd break your own hand on his jaw.

Later Treks, particularly DS9, had a very standardized approach to fights. I guess this was the only way to have the actors do them often, but they are slow as hell. Watch Kira during any fight: jab in the gut - pause - right to the face - pause - neck chop - pause - open palm to the face - guy falls. It's the pauses.

Oh, and take it from me, the Kirk flying kick only works of your opponent doesn't step aside while you're in mid-air. Learned that the hard way in Elementary School.

 

[Steve67]

I don't mind the fights, but I can say that the Kirk stuntman singlehandedly ruins "Court Martial" for me in what is to me an otherwise excellent episode. I can't say that about any other episode, so maybe I need to revise my opinion!

 

[Christopher]

Oh, and take it from me, the Kirk flying kick only works of your opponent doesn't step aside while you're in mid-air. Learned that the hard way in Elementary School.

I had a better grade-school experience with Shatner emulation, though it was in high school. Well, marginally better. Some bullies were harrassing a friend of mine and one of them trying to steal his ball, so I ran down the hall and jumped on the guy's back, intending to knock him down. However, he was considerably bigger than I was, so he hardly budged. Plan B: I clung to him and tried to trip him. Which failed because it's hard to trip someone who's standing still. Nonetheless, he reached back to swat at this annoying little pest on his back, so my friend's ball was saved. Remembering Starfleet rules of engagement (never use more force than necessary to achieve your goal), I stopped my attack and let go -- however, my feet were off the ground, so I fell backward.

Not only was I falling, but I realized on the way down that the bully would be mad at me and I might have to defend myself. So I asked myself what Captain Kirk would do. To my own amazement, I managed to turn my backward fall into a pretty smooth backward somersault and come up into a fighting stance. It must've looked pretty intimidating, since the bullies fled -- which is good, since if they'd called my bluff, I would've been completely useless in an actual fight. But I'd saved my friend's ball and I'd handled myself in a way I could be proud of.

Of course, as the bullies were running away, my friend angrily threw the ball at the closing door behind them -- whereupon it bounced right into their hands and we never saw it again. There's a lesson there...

 

[Navaros]

Watch Kira during any fight: jab in the gut - pause - right to the face - pause - neck chop - pause - open palm to the face - guy falls. It's the pauses.

You forgot to mention modern Treks' fights signature move: the hero grabs his or her own wrist and then boffs the bad guy like that, which always bestows mystical powers unto the wrist-grabbing hero which results in a TKO every single time. Kira has done this plenty of times, as have most if not all of the other modern Trek good guys when they get into fights.

 

[Basil]

All Hollywood fistfights are pretty silly when compared to the real things, which aren't choreographed, graceful, or lengthy. Shows of the 60s had the added problem of limiting the violence to something more stagy, in part so that kids might not have too real a blueprint to copy. And then, as now, not everyone equated "real" with "entertaining." TOS fights are pretty good, especially when you consider the censorship of the day.

 

[Christopher]

All Hollywood fistfights are pretty silly when compared to the real things, which aren't choreographed, graceful, or lengthy.

Same with swordfights. Most real swordfights are over in a few seconds, because the combatants are actually aiming for each other, unlike stage and film swordfighters, who instead aim for each other's swords. (This is why real swordfighters use shields.)

 

[T'Bonz]

What always made me snort in derision when it came to watching TV fights (most, not just Trek) was this:

3 guys vs. our hero.

All would "take turns" rotating in and out to fight the hero. One would get his ass kicked, and only then would another come in and fight. But never, never, would all three fight at the same time. It was always one against one, not three against one.

In real life, if three guys were fighting Kirk, all three would come at him at once and team up if possible. The fight would probably end up with two of them holding Kirk while the third beat the $*#@ out of him.

 

[Doug Otte]

I had a better grade-school experience with Shatner emulation...

Hilarious story, and well told...thanks!
Doug

 

[Christopher]

What always made me snort in derision when it came to watching TV fights (most, not just Trek) was this:

3 guys vs. our hero.

All would "take turns" rotating in and out to fight the hero. One would get his ass kicked, and only then would another come in and fight. But never, never, would all three fight at the same time. It was always one against one, not three against one.

Ahh, yes, Mook Chivalry.

 

[T'Bonz]

Ahh, yes, Mook Chivalry.

That's great.

 

[Middle Earther]

Having been bullied in school, I always liked it when Kirk "beat the tar" out of Finnegan in "Shore Leave." I just rewatched it and I think it does a good job of showing a "realistic" fight. I just paste a particular bullies face on F in my imagination.

The most unrealistic hit, IMO, was actually done by McCoy when he was all crazy from the drug in "City on the Edge of Forever." Although, in my youth, I fantasized about doing that double wack on the back and puttting someone out. Almost as neat as a neck pinch.