The Master and The War Chief - Why can't they be the same guy?

[Chaos Descending]

Of course, I don't have a particular preference towards either interpretation, but viewing Gallifrey Base it seems that some people are violently opposed to the idea that they might be the same guy.

Can anyone explain to me why they absolutely MUST NOT be the same Time Lord?

Feel free to argue evidence from any of the various novel ranges, but be aware that I don't accept any of it as canonical from a TV series standpoint.

Cheers.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

I think part of it comes from the fact that in The War Games The Doctor doesn't seem to know or recognize The War Chief as anyone beyond being a Time Lord, whereas it's established during The Third Doctor era (particularly in Terror of the Autons and The Sea Devils) that The Doctor has known The Master for a long time.

 

[Chaos Descending]

That's a great point.

Even in Terror of the Autons when the Doctor is warned by the well-attired Time Lord about the Master, the Doctor was clearly familiar with him, but considered him to be fairly harmless. I wonder if the original intent was for the Master to be a more deadly incarnation of the Monk? Based on the Third Doctor's initial assessment, it would follow.

Of course, I do NOT think that the Monk was the Master.

 

[Chaos Descending]

Wait a minute... how long has it been since you have seen The War Games? It's been awhile for me but I seen to remember at least one of the two, The War Chief or The Doctor, recognizing the other personally.

I might well be wrong.

 

[The]

I've always thought that maybe The Monk and The Master are the same person...

 

[Chaos Descending]

I've always thought that maybe The Monk and The Master are the same person...

I think there's less likely of this than of the War Chief and the Master being the same person.

 

[The]

^Why?

 

[Chaos Descending]

A couple reasons.

For one, the Monk wasn't particularly bright. In fact, he was sort of a dopey buffoon, whereas the Master is a genius, a true rival to the Doctor. Second, the Master and the Doctor attended the Academy together. The Doctor and the Monk were completely unacquainted with each other.

 

[The]

Hmmm. I've always been able to get around that in my head for some reason. But, I can understand your reasoning. I always wondered what happened to the guy, though. He was the first recurring Time Lord nemesis for The Doctor, wasn't he? He appeared twice, right?

 

[Chaos Descending]

Yes, he was in The Time Meddler and The Dalek's Masterplan.

Of course, the fluid nature of continuity in Doctor Who being what it is, I'd never be surprised if future producers of the series reveal that the Master, the Monk, AND the War Chief were all the same guy.

 

[Blamo]

The Master is the Rani

*runs*

Okay seriously, I was going to write this one off, but it's certainly not impossible.

Given it was over a decade and a half since I've seen it, I'm going to have to wait until I get my hands on the DVD before I can really formulate an opinion.

Hmm

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Wait a minute... how long has it been since you have seen The War Games? It's been awhile for me but I seen to remember at least one of the two, The War Chief or The Doctor, recognizing the other personally.

I might well be wrong.

It's been at least a year now, so I couldn't swear to it, but I don't think you recall correctly. They recognized each other as fellow Time Lords, but that was it.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

Hmmm. I've always been able to get around that in my head for some reason. But, I can understand your reasoning. I always wondered what happened to the guy, though. He was the first recurring Time Lord nemesis for The Doctor, wasn't he? He appeared twice, right?

And it's unlikely we'll see him; The Monk is a character that's off-limits right now. I know of two Short Trips stories that either didn't happen or were drastically altered because Dennis Spooner's estate refused permission for the character's use.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Hmmm. I've always been able to get around that in my head for some reason. But, I can understand your reasoning. I always wondered what happened to the guy, though. He was the first recurring Time Lord nemesis for The Doctor, wasn't he? He appeared twice, right?

And it's unlikely we'll see him; The Monk is a character that's off-limits right now. I know of two Short Trips stories that either didn't happen or were drastically altered because Dennis Spooner's estate refused permission for the character's use.

There goes the rumors about Patrick Stewart playing him in one of the specials or series 5.

 

[The]

So, the character isn't owned by the BBC?

 

[Allyn Gibson]

And it's unlikely we'll see him; The Monk is a character that's off-limits right now. I know of two Short Trips stories that either didn't happen or were drastically altered because Dennis Spooner's estate refused permission for the character's use.

There goes the rumors about Patrick Stewart playing him in one of the specials or series 5.

I've no doubt that BBC Wales can pony up a lot more money than Big Finish can. If RTD wants to use the Monk, it would happen.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

And it's unlikely we'll see him; The Monk is a character that's off-limits right now. I know of two Short Trips stories that either didn't happen or were drastically altered because Dennis Spooner's estate refused permission for the character's use.

There goes the rumors about Patrick Stewart playing him in one of the specials or series 5.

I've no doubt that BBC Wales can pony up a lot more money than Big Finish can. If RTD wants to use the Monk, it would happen.

And just like that, the rumors return to life!

In all seriousness, I would love to see the Monk return, Patrick Stewart or not.

 

[Chaos Descending]

I think of the Monk as the Harry Mudd of Doctor Who.

He should never, EVER, be a "serious" threat. More of an amusing and irritating nuisance.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

So, the character isn't owned by the BBC?

Lots of Doctor Who characters and concepts aren't owned by the BBC. Copyright works differently in the UK than it does in the US.

When you write a Star Trek story, all the toys from every episode are in the box for you to use, because Paramount owns it all, lock stock and barrel. When you write a Doctor Who story, there are things that are off-limits because the BBC doesn't have free rein to use them.

There goes the rumors about Patrick Stewart playing him in one of the specials or series 5.

I've no doubt that BBC Wales can pony up a lot more money than Big Finish can. If RTD wants to use the Monk, it would happen.

And just like that, the rumors return to life!

In all seriousness, I would love to see the Monk return, Patrick Stewart or not.

From what I'm given to understand by several UK sources, Timothy Dalton is portraying the character that Stewart would have played in the specials. Dalton's schedule was free, while Stewart was booked for Waiting for Godot with Sir Ian McKellan.

I tend to doubt that character is the Monk.

 

[captcalhoun]

EMH is right, The Doctor and the War Chief don't recognise one another at first. WC seems to know of the Doctor, commenting at one stage about him having regenerated (altered his appearance or whatever), but neither exhibits the kind of familiarity of doc and master.