Waltz and Dukat

[Jbarney]

Watched Waltz for the first time in years tonight and just had the thought that this was the episode where I thought Dukat's greatness as a character started to dry up. I liked the aspect of him going insane, and the performance in the show was really good. But after Waltz, I think there is really only one other episode where I found the progression of the character was at all insteresting. Just wonder what others think.

 

[Navaros]

Dukat absolutely stopped being interesting as of his fubaring at the end of Waltz. That is because one-dimensional caricatures are never interesting (rather, they are silly cartoons), and that's what the writers turned Dukat into.

JC points it out very well in this interview.

http://www.geocities.com/combsfan/nexusinterview.html

N: I have heard that Marc Alaimo always claimed that Dukat is a good guy deep in his heart. Is there anything like this that is true for Weyoun?

JC: That was an ongoing battle with Marc and Ira. Ira kept saying: C’mon! You’re kidding! I think really that any good actor who has a role whether a villainous role or not, will try to find anything to make the character more multidimensional and not just be one thing. So that’s what Marc was trying to do. What I was trying to do…it’s not so easy to just say he’s bad or he’s good and that’s all. You wanna play all the colors

N: And that’s why “Waltz” was done?

JC: That’s why “Waltz” was done,… right! And they changed the ending of “Waltz”!

N: Ah, how was that?

JC: I don’t recall! But there was an ending shot and then they changed it, to make him less sympathetic.

They should have left the other ending intact and put it on-screen instead, and likewise not fubared Dukat in any of the post-Waltz episodes either.

 

[Thor Damar]

Does anyone know what the first ending of Waltz would have played out for Dukat?

 

[Too Much Fun]

I've been agreeing with this a lot lately. I keep mentioning how as I watch the final episodes of the series, what disappoints me most is the way Dukat is played in them. I can't stand Dukat since he went insane. He has become completely lame and irritating to watch, whereas before he was one of the most interesting characters. Now I just roll my eyes and sigh with annoyance whenever his scenes with Kai Winn come up.

 

[Jono]

Personally I enjoyed the Dukat going over the edge and working with Pah-Wraiths.

 

[Anwar]

Yeah, me too. It was fitting that Dukat ultimately became the Anti-Emissary since he was Sisko's opposite throughout the series.

As for how it "Derailed" him, going insane was perfectly justified from all he went through over the series and those feelings he held towards the Bajorans and such were ALWAYS there. Just that after losing Ziyal and his position he had no reason to hide his true nature underneath that mask of his.

 

[Too Much Fun]

I'm not saying it didn't make sense for him to go insane, I just personally believe it made him a much less fun character to watch. Actually what annoys me more about his scenes with Winn is how contrived they seem in forcing Winn to remain a villain against all logic. It keeps becoming more and more obvious how stupid it is of her to continue consorting with Dukat and yet she continues to, even when she's actually told who he really is!

But Dukat's fanaticism over the Pah Wraiths is annoying too. I liked him more when he would brag about himself and his pride in himself and his race rather just blabbering about how great some (most of the time) unseen group of bad guys are.

He went from being an intriguingly crafty, arrogant, unpredictable dictator with a deliciously twisted morality about himself and his actions to nothing more than a cipher for some evil spirits that were never as interesting as he used to be.

There was a lot to him before, he wasn't just a mean person. His feelings for his daughter and Kira made him someone with conflicts with himself, so that watching him, you never knew what he would think or do next.

Once he went all religious zealot, all he ever did was praise his new evil leaders. He was basically reduced to those spirits' bitch. Part of the problem is also that the whole concept of Pah Wraiths strikes me as silly, although I did think the episode where Miss O'Brien got possessed by one was rivetingly disturbing and infuriating.

 

[Thestral]

Yeah, me too. It was fitting that Dukat ultimately became the Anti-Emissary since he was Sisko's opposite throughout the series.

As for how it "Derailed" him, going insane was perfectly justified from all he went through over the series and those feelings he held towards the Bajorans and such were ALWAYS there. Just that after losing Ziyal and his position he had no reason to hide his true nature underneath that mask of his.

I agree with this. It's painful to see what's become of Dukat, but it's fitting.

I'm not saying it didn't make sense for him to go insane, I just personally believe it made him a much less fun character to watch. Actually what annoys me more about his scenes with Winn is how contrived they seem in forcing Winn to remain a villain against all logic. It keeps becoming more and more obvious how stupid it is of her to continue consorting with Dukat and yet she continues to, even when she's actually told who he really is!

But Dukat's fanaticism over the Pah Wraiths is annoying too. I liked him more when he would brag about himself and his pride in himself and his race rather just blabbering about how great some (most of the time) unseen group of bad guys are.

He went from being an intriguingly crafty, arrogant, unpredictable dictator with a deliciously twisted morality about himself and his actions to nothing more than a cipher for some evil spirits that were never as interesting as he used to be.

There was a lot to him before, he wasn't just a mean person. His feelings for his daughter and Kira made him someone with conflicts with himself, so that watching him, you never knew what he would think or do next.

Once he went all religious zealot, all he ever did was praise his new evil leaders. He was basically reduced to those spirits' bitch. Part of the problem is also that the whole concept of Pah Wraiths strikes me as silly, although I did think the episode where Miss O'Brien got possessed by one was rivetingly disturbing and infuriating.

There was a lot to him before. But the Gul Dukat we all know and love died along with Ziyal in Sacrifice of Angels. After that, he had no reason to pretend anymore, and the demon was allowed full play. Had Ziyal lived, maybe Behr could've been wrong, maybe she could have helped him graft that mask of gentility and kindness onto his heart, make it no longer a mask. But Damar killed that just as surely as he killed Ziyal, and all that was left was a hate-filled, vengeful husk of a man.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Dukat's going insane...I don't object to it like a lot of people do. To me, it seemed like a tragic fall in an almost Shakespearian sense. Was it larger than life? Oh, yeah. And yet...it seemed like karma. He sold his soul and got what he deserved for it.

(Admittedly a redemption angle would've also been interesting--yet I suspect it would've gotten just as much if not MORE bitching from the fans, even if he had an experience as extreme as the real-life Road to Damascus incident.)

 

[indranee]

There was a lot to him before. But the Gul Dukat we all know and love died along with Ziyal in Sacrifice of Angels. After that, he had no reason to pretend anymore, and the demon was allowed full play. Had Ziyal lived, maybe Behr could've been wrong, maybe she could have helped him graft that mask of gentility and kindness onto his heart, make it no longer a mask. But Damar killed that just as surely as he killed Ziyal, and all that was left was a hate-filled, vengeful husk of a man.

I believe they should have killed him after SoA

I hated, hated, HATED, with pure malice, Sisko's line in Waltz: he is pure evil.

if nothing else, that was revisionist writing on the part of TPTB.

 

[Thor Damar]

^ Yeah, that kind of black/White fallacy were people are either good guys or pure evil I find too simplistic in my personal view. That kind of thinking is more of a help than a hindrance.

 

[Thestral]

There was a lot to him before. But the Gul Dukat we all know and love died along with Ziyal in Sacrifice of Angels. After that, he had no reason to pretend anymore, and the demon was allowed full play. Had Ziyal lived, maybe Behr could've been wrong, maybe she could have helped him graft that mask of gentility and kindness onto his heart, make it no longer a mask. But Damar killed that just as surely as he killed Ziyal, and all that was left was a hate-filled, vengeful husk of a man.

I believe they should have killed him after SoA

I hated, hated, HATED, with pure malice, Sisko's line in Waltz: he is pure evil.

if nothing else, that was revisionist writing on the part of TPTB.

Two possibilities here. One, this is Sisko's belief, and we're not beholden to agree. Remember, this is the man who used biogenic weapons against Maquis settlements without Starfleet orders, and the man who was an accomplice (at best) to a double-murder in order to get the Romulans on the Federation's side of the war. Sisko has a demonstrable problem in demonizing his enemy, as we can see in Eddington, Picard/Locutus, and Solok, and now in Dukat.

The other possibility is that Sisko's right, in stating that he is - present tense - evil. Not that he was evil, he is evil. It's not revisionist writing if the implication is that losing Ziyal (and his empire) drove him over the edge and ripped away forever the mask he'd been wearing. It's unfortunate in that it's painting a psychotic, insane person as evil, but that's one commonly-accepted belief, and the nature of evil is a debate for another thread.

I would agree about killing him after SoA, except that I thought Covenant was a very good episode, and the intentionally-mythic Emissary/Anti-Emissary plot started in TotP was a good idea, if somewhat flawed in execution.

^ Yeah, that kind of black/White fallacy were people are either good guys or pure evil I find too simplistic in my personal view. That kind of thinking is more of a help than a hindrance.

It's simplistic, but it can in rare cases happen, although by the time a person gets to "pure evil" I would say they effectively stop being human (or in this case, Cardassian).

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Kestrel--"Covenant" freaked the hell out of me. I don't care what anybody else says about it...Mr. Alaimo DEFINITELY did his homework when it came to "how cult leaders act." It was damn convincing!

And that point you raise about him ceasing to be a true, fully-nuanced Cardassian--that's definitely what happened to him when the Pah-Wraith took over his body.

And yet I don't think it was anywhere near as inappropriate as a lot of people seem to think it is. Does anybody here remember the punishment, in Dante's vision of Hell, for traitors? And Dukat was most definitely a traitor to his people, selling them into the hands of the Dominion...

 

[Thor Damar]

Kestrel--"Covenant" freaked the hell out of me. I don't care what anybody else says about it...Mr. Alaimo DEFINITELY did his homework when it came to "how cult leaders act." It was damn convincing!

And that point you raise about him ceasing to be a true, fully-nuanced Cardassian--that's definitely what happened to him when the Pah-Wraith took over his body.

And yet I don't think it was anywhere near as inappropriate as a lot of people seem to think it is. Does anybody here remember the punishment, in Dante's vision of Hell, for traitors? And Dukat was most definitely a traitor to his people, selling them into the hands of the Dominion...

The punishment is to be frozen in ice for all eternity and to be gnawed upon by Satan.
(I'm a lapsed Catholic so I remember this stuff...)

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Also--your soul gets pulled out of your body at the moment of betrayal, and replaced by a demon.

See any applications of that here?

 

[Thor Damar]

Also--your soul gets pulled out of your body at the moment of betrayal, and replaced by a demon.

See any applications of that here?

Ah, how could I forget that. That's an interesting perspective to say the least...

And talking of Hell's punishment just think what would await Weyoun...

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Actually, I wonder about that with Weyoun. What WOULD the theological status be, of someone genetically unable to be responsible for his own actions?

 

[DevilEyes]

Actually, I wonder about that with Weyoun. What WOULD the theological status be, of someone genetically unable to be responsible for his own actions?

But Weyoun (either of them) never betrayed who they believed in, did they? They stayed true to their gods right to the end.

Which is, of course, not always a good thing...

 

[Thor Damar]

Actually, I wonder about that with Weyoun. What WOULD the theological status be, of someone genetically unable to be responsible for his own actions?

But Weyoun (either of them) never betrayed who they believed in, did they? They stayed true to their gods right to the end.

Which is, of course, not always a good thing...

I was thinking in terms of his duplicity and being an accessory to genocide. And there was about 8 Weyouns (we only saw four of 'em onscreen).

 

[DevilEyes]

Actually, I wonder about that with Weyoun. What WOULD the theological status be, of someone genetically unable to be responsible for his own actions?

But Weyoun (either of them) never betrayed who they believed in, did they? They stayed true to their gods right to the end.

Which is, of course, not always a good thing...

I was thinking in terms of his duplicity and being an accessory to genocide. And there was about 8 Weyouns (we only saw four of 'em onscreen).

I thought you were still refering to betrayal. Which is a relative thing, anyway, as Garak said... (points to signature).

As far as I remember, while most of the Weyouns were loyal to the Founders and never questioned any of the orders, the one that actually developed independent thought and morality (I think he was Weyoun 6?) still choose to believe in Odo as his God... So, Vorta are actually capable of thinking for themselves and developing conscience. Even though they still need to look up to Founders for orders. Weyoun 6 exchanged one sets of gods for another god of his own choosing, but he still proved that Vortae were not all the same and could make different choices.