LOL California English...
Dooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooood... The "H" in "whoa" is actually pronounced in California.
Did Uhura have a double entandre?
- Thread starter jhouston6
- Start date
LOL California English...
Dooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooood... The "H" in "whoa" is actually pronounced in California.
I agree with both of you completely. It seems like something had been going on between them, and they were aware of each other's feelings, but it was an unfulfilled attraction, not an established relationship. Maybe they had shared a moment when they kissed awkwardly, maybe there had been something tentative going on between them, but whatever happened, I don't believe it was an established, regular relationship. Not only it wouldn't have made sense for Spock ot have been so emotionally open, but the whole story of the movie would lose significance and poignancy if that were the case. The story works if it was only Nero's destruction of Vulcan, the death of Spock's mother and the emotional strain Spock was under (and, of course, his conversation with his father) that made all the difference and made Spock more open to expressing his feelings and having a relationship with a human woman. If he had already been having a regular relationship before, then it would seem as if he didn't really go through a real emotional journey in the movie.
that's fine, but in standard american english, the pronunciation is identical, at least according to webster.
You, like, got a problem with that? That's, like, totally not cool, dude. Gag me with a spoon.
Comas eso sombrero, muchacho.
"Eat that hat, boy?"
You, like, got a problem with that? That's, like, totally not cool, dude. Gag me with a spoon.
Comas eso sombrero, muchacho.
"Eat that hat, boy?"
His avatar is wearing a sombrero. It's a random joke. I could have used muchacho, chico, mijo, hombre, etc... And achieve the same bit of humor. Also the fact that in San Diego, Mexican Spanish or Spanglish is our second language. Spanish is as So.Cal as Valspeak is. Sort of the two kinds of speaking that So.Cal is known for. Also, "eat your hat" is [English-language] slang.
I guess I could have also said "Kawabunga, dude! Tubular!", but I was already overdoing my '80s quota with "Gag me with a spoon."
He made a joke about my mention of "California English".
I've never pronounced aural and oral the same. It appears to be an alternate pronunciation (both used), but "awr-uhl" is the one I've always heard.
It's probably like "toh-may-to" and "toh-mah-to".
Yes, Uhura has a double-entrande to match Spocks bifurcated... oh, nevermind!
What You Said.
Spock is just barely functioning and hanging on by his fingernails when he leaves the bridge. Unless they were already together, I just can't see Uhura going after Spock into the turbolift and touching him.
Also, Spock's body language and expression when he says he didn't want to give the appearance of favoritism? He's not thinking about mentor to student favoritism.
A deeper connection, definitely; a mutually recognized but unfulfilled or barely fulfilled attraction, probably; some kind of tentative relationship, possibly. But a full, regular romantic relationship? No way. It is unlikely for someone as emotionally repressed as Spock was; and if it that were the case, it would pretty much ruin the whole story and character development for Spock in the movie. What emotional journey is he undergoing during the movie, and what's the point of the crucial conversation with his father, if Spock had already been able to be so emotionally open to have a steady relationship with a human woman, to begin with?
LeahBoBo
Commander
90%?
I sincerely hope not. I'd hate to think the average film goer is that...dumb. From the first time I heard it, I thought she meant aural. It never occurred to me to think otherwise considering the entire context of her conversation. And I am still convinced there was physical contact between them beforehand.
LeahBoBo
Commander
If you think Spock is as emotionally repressed as you suggest, then your argument makes sense. But if you don't think so, it is not hard to believe at all that Spock is engaged in a regular romantic relationship. Spock is not emotionally repressed. He showed full blown anger as a child and a lesser degree of anger when rejecting the VSA. He showed irritation when Kirk cheated on the Kobayashi Maru. He showed concern for his mother's feelings when he was considering purging himself of human emotion. He showed worry and concern when he was heading off the bridge to collect his parents from Vulcan, and even in the midst of that, he stopped to explain to Uhura why he had to go himself, which he would not have done if she were merely a member of the crew. All of this suggests to me that Spock would allow his attraction to a human woman to follow the natural course on a planet where he is alone and not bound by strict Vulcan ways.
Why? Spock's relationship with Uhura was extremely private until he had been battered by catastrophic losses and his father's confession. Because he was emotionally open to his lover didn't mean he was comfortable with or open to all the other emotions humans have to deal with. It did not mean he wanted others to see him as one who needed the closeness and warmth of a romantic relationship. By the time he and Kirk decided to invade the Narada, Spock had the freedom to show emotions like love and friendship.
The thing that I accepted right off the bat about nuSpock, that others seem unwilling to do, is that he is not uberVulcan like TOS Spock. He has not rejected his human-half. His father didn't insist that he follow the Vulcan path or reject him when he didn't. I don't think nuSpock will ever evolve into the Spock we knew because I think he will honor his mother's memory by holding his human half close.
In standard English English too. I had always assumed that people who pronounced them differently were going by their own readings without paying attention to everyone else, but I think differences in local accents make more sense.
TOS Spock also showed irritation - many times, in fact (with Uhura when she chastized him for his lack of emotion in Mantrap; with McCoy in practically every episode), amused curiosity (at finding Kirk in a weird situation with Dr Ellen Noel, at crew's reactions to Mudd's women, at McCoy getting chosen to be the 'dad' to the child in "Friday's Child", and lots of other times - usually it is shown with a raised eyebrow...), worry and concern (about Kirk's life in "The Devil in the Dark", in "Amok Time" etc.), he was uncomfortable (when Uhura asked him to tell her she was beautiful, or when McCoy told him to take a baby in his arms) or embarrassed at having shown 'human' feeings (stroking the Tribbles in "The Trouble with Tribbles"),he even smiled and seemed somewhat pleased with Uhura's teasing song in "Charlie X"... So what is the difference? Do you think that any of these emotional reactions meant that he was not emotionally repressed or commited to the Vulcan ways? Or that he would have been comfortable having a full-blown romantic relationship with a human, when he was not under the influence of alien spores or similar outside forces?
And what difference does it make what he showed as a child or a teenager? Do you really think Spock Prime had self-control as a child, or that any Vulcan child ever had that kind of control? We're talking about children.
Even Nimoy thinks and has said numerous times in interviews that younger Spock hadn't yet found emotional balance and control as he did later in life.
So, you're saying that he was compeltely comfortable with showing love in private, but not in public? Meh, that's also the case with many humans who are neither commited to logic nor emotionally repressed, nor have grown up thinking their father did not love their mother. Am I supposed to think that not displaying affection in public for everyone to see is such a terrible trait and a sign of emotional repression, which has to be corrected?
Is that the whole purpose of Spock's conversation with his father? He was able to have a normal relationship, and the great character development was to make him able to smooch in a transponder in front of other people? 
You know, if you manage to convince me of that, I'll end up thinking that Spock's portrayal in the movie and the relationship with Uhura were indeed stupid storylines.
LeahBoBo
Commander
I'd have to go back and review a lot of the examples you've given. The only one I can speak on, off the top of my head, would be the scene in The Trouble With Tribbles. And then I just thought that those adorable, cooing little creatures were so alluring that they even penetrated Spock's tough hide. However, there are more examples in TOS that showed Spock to be in total denial of his human half. IMO, he rejected it most ferociously, so I stick with my conclusion of total emotional repression.
Yes. I think as a child (and a teenager) Spock Prime went out of his way to be a stoic, unemotional Vulcan because of his relationship with Sarek (as alluded to in TOS).
So what? I think the life experiences of Spock Prime and nuSpock will be completely different, taking nuSpock to emotional places Spock Prime could not have anticipated.
You know, if you manage to convince me of that, I'll end up thinking that Spock's portrayal in the movie and the relationship with Uhura were indeed stupid storylines.
I'm not trying to convince you of anything, so your ultimate judgment of S/U rests with you. All I'm saying is that there is another possibility than the one you are raising and that I like my possibility better.
oh geez, i think this thread will never end. we are arguing about something that cannot be proven one way or the other, at least not by any of us.
still.... i have to agree with devileyes. and anyway, if what he goes through in the film is about being able to show emotion in public, then why wouldn't we be shown that?? it is a film, after all. that's kinda the idea there, to show people what's going on.
and in TOS, was it ever claimed that spock and sareks' relationship was problematic before he chose to join star fleet? i don't know of any reason they would have had problems when spock was a child. also we have no reason for thinking that he didn't make sarek unhappy (or whatever that's like for a vulcan) when he declined the science academy as shown in XI, that isn't touched on in this film at all. then later after amanda is killed, it is logical that they would put aside whatever differences they did have and band together as what's left of their family. i saw this as more of the beginning of the major deviation from the standard timeline, at least for these characters.
and as for uhura.... i just can't wrap my head around the idea. just because someone is special to you does not mean you have ever overtly expressed it, or even that you are consciously aware of it. and yeah, TOS spock did show little glimmers of emotion now and then, mostly despite himself, as i recall. i know plenty of people who are repressed, but that's not to say they have a totally flat affect and speak in a monotone. nuspock looks pretty tightly contained to me - it took those bullies 35 tries and physical assault before they got anything out of him. and the burst that did come is a classic symptom of repressed emotions. as an adult he seems to have learned from that experience, and when his mother falls off a cliff right in front of his eyes he doesn't even so much as shed a tear.
so, you can like the idea of spock and uhura having some kind of secret affair, secret from everyone, including the audience. but the evidence for this is very flimsy and i am not at all convinced. and apparently i am not alone.
still.... i have to agree with devileyes. and anyway, if what he goes through in the film is about being able to show emotion in public, then why wouldn't we be shown that?? it is a film, after all. that's kinda the idea there, to show people what's going on.
and in TOS, was it ever claimed that spock and sareks' relationship was problematic before he chose to join star fleet? i don't know of any reason they would have had problems when spock was a child. also we have no reason for thinking that he didn't make sarek unhappy (or whatever that's like for a vulcan) when he declined the science academy as shown in XI, that isn't touched on in this film at all. then later after amanda is killed, it is logical that they would put aside whatever differences they did have and band together as what's left of their family. i saw this as more of the beginning of the major deviation from the standard timeline, at least for these characters.
and as for uhura.... i just can't wrap my head around the idea. just because someone is special to you does not mean you have ever overtly expressed it, or even that you are consciously aware of it. and yeah, TOS spock did show little glimmers of emotion now and then, mostly despite himself, as i recall. i know plenty of people who are repressed, but that's not to say they have a totally flat affect and speak in a monotone. nuspock looks pretty tightly contained to me - it took those bullies 35 tries and physical assault before they got anything out of him. and the burst that did come is a classic symptom of repressed emotions. as an adult he seems to have learned from that experience, and when his mother falls off a cliff right in front of his eyes he doesn't even so much as shed a tear.
so, you can like the idea of spock and uhura having some kind of secret affair, secret from everyone, including the audience. but the evidence for this is very flimsy and i am not at all convinced. and apparently i am not alone.
TOS Spock was in denial of his human half or at least trying to deny it as much as he could. But at the same time, there were plenty of times when he showed emotions in a subtle way, sometimes even less subtly when he would lose control for a moment (not counting all the episodes when he would lose control for a longer period of time due to outside forces or Pon Farr), e.g. when he suddenly changes his 'we shouldn't hurt the Horta' stance once he realizes Kirk's life is really in danger and starts yelling to Kirk to kill it. As diftorhehsmusma said, he would show glimpses of emotions despite himself. A person may try to be as unemotional as possible, but that doesn't mean that they'll actually manage to erase emotion or even always hide it from others. In TOS, the audience were constantly presented with the contrast between Spock's insistence that he had no emotions, and hints that this was actually not the case at all, and this was a source of a lot of comedic moments, as well as poignant, sad and moving moments. Some of the other characters in TOS seemed to realize that, as well - Kirk always seemed to be quietly aware of it, Chapel understood it (her speech in "The Naked Time" shows), and even McCoy occasionally showed that he realized Spock was suppressing emotions rather than actually devoid of them ("Bread and Circuses"), and this gave rise to many moments when McCoy, Kirk and other crewmemers would tease Spock and try to make him admit he had had an emotional reaction (as in "The Galileo Seven").
We barely ever saw TOS Spock interact with Vulcans, apart from his father, briefly during Pon Farr with T'Pring and T'Pau (who basically asked him at one point to prove he was a true Vulcan) and a spectre of Surak in "Savage Curtain". It is quite possible that, while humans in the Starfleet saw Spock as cold and logical, an average Vulcan might have seen him as too emotional. I'm watching season 1 of Voyager, and at least at this point (I haven't seen the rest of VOY), I can't see Tuvok engaging in sarcastic banter with any of the crew the way TOS Spock always did with McCoy. TOS Spock also had more warmth and considerably more of a sense of humor.
The issue if not whether he went out of his way to be a stoic, unemotional Vulcan. The issue is how successful he was in that attempt. Do you know any children and teenagers who were already as much in control and exactly the same as they were as adults? That's what adolescence in all about - not just physical development and transformation, but a fundamental change and transformation of personality as well. This is why it is such a troubled and painful stage in life. There's no absolutely no reason to think that this is different with humanoid alien children. In fact, Vulcan children we see in ST09 or in TAS episode "Yesteryear" suggest that Vulcans are in that respect, same as humans.
And, as diftorhehsmusma noted, in ST09, little nuSpock was clearly doing his best to be a stoic, unemotional Vulcan. It took 35 attempts for the bullies to make him lose control. And once he did lose it, he had an explosive, volcanic (pun intended) reaction - a consequence of suppressesing and denying your emotions to such an extent. Little Spock was provoked by the bullies in a similar way in D.C.Fontana-written "Yesteryear" (the episode that is, BTW, considered canon because its events were referenced in TNG). In fact, little nuSpock showed more restraint and seemed to be less easily provoked than "Yesteryear" little PrimeSpock.
Let's also not forget that Sarek in TNG "Unification" says about Prime Spock "He was always so impressionable..." It seems that Spock's father always saw Spock as a very emotional being.
Is nuSpock really that different, for the first 3/4 or so of the film? He is also doing his best to suppress emotions, and showing them only despite himself. And when Kirk provokes him, he reacts violently, just like an emotional person who suppresses their emotions all the time would. Just like Spock Prime when provoked by Kirk in "This Side of Paradise" (no, this example can't be dismissed with "he was under the influence of spores" - because the spores were actually making him less likely to be easily provoked into anger and violence - which is why it took Kirk so much to succesfully goad him into the fight), or betrayed by Valeris in Undiscovered Country, or when insulted by Scotty in "Day of the Dove" or McCoy in "All Our Yesterdays". OK, now I know in these last two examples he was also more violent due to outside influences, but I think having had your planet destroyed and your mother die in front of your eyes also qualifies as abnormal circumstances that can make one emotionally compromised. And in none of these circumstances did Spock choose to act that way, it happened in spite of himself. It's not like he chose to have a violent emotional outburst, and it says nothing about his decision to be stoic and unemotional. Kissing Uhura in the transponder, or calling Kirk "Jim", these things show that Spock is more accepting of his human side and his emotions, not his outburst against Kirk - and they both happen after Spock's hear-to-heart conversation with his father in which Sarek admits he loved Amanda.
The main reason why you won't convince me that nuSpock, before that, was comfortable enough with his emotions to have a full-blown relationship with Uhura, is because what we see in the movie does not support it. Before the transponder scene, we saw Spock:
1) try to assign Uhura to another ship, for fear that people would see it as favoritism - even though he is actually aware that she is the best qualified person for the job on Enterprise. This shows that he was very uneasy with having any kind of close relationship with her; and that he was perhaps also trying to keep her at arms' length.
2) when he was being comforted by Uhura in the turbolift - he only briefly accepted her hug and kissed her, very uncomfortably, before pushing her away and insisting that what he needs is "for everyone to continue performing admirably". And that was in private, when nobody was watching them (and at a moment when he really, really needed some comfort and affection). This is not a person who is comfortable having a relationship. This is someone who is very emotionally repressed. In fact, this scene and the one in the transponder are very much in contrast with each other.
^^ WOO! gorgeous! all very thorough and well-supported. i especially like the part about assigning her to another ship to keep her at arm's length. i hadn't thought about that, but if they were in a romantic relationship, wouldn't it make more sense to assign her to his own ship?
LeahBoBo
Commander
And the point of this statement is what? (Since clearly you are going to argue your POV.)
I didn't intend to imply that was the entire point of Spock's experiences in this film.
I never said it was claimed. That was the impression I got based on how the two interacted and what was implied in conversation in The Journey to Babel (I think).
Or in someone who is naturally easy going and not easily ruffled, but when they've been pushed too far all hell breaks loose. But in Spock's case it came by pushing the right button (his mother).
If tears are the only expression of feeling that you accept, I can't help you see more subtle signs of emotion.
The evidence is no flimsier than your evidence to the contrary and apparently, I am not alone in thinking that either.
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