Logos, logos and some more logos...
- Thread starter Reverend
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Thanks to Jörg, the screen cap king himself, I've been put in contact with a collector of authentic B5 costume pieces (who is also apparantly mates with someone who worked on the show) and has been kind enough to offer me some nice big reference photos of the actual patches used on the show.
So here's the first of the bunch.
Much more to come.
So here's the first of the bunch.
Much more to come.
Cool! Now I have to look and find those logos and patches in the actual episodes! ;-) Looking forward to much more!
Jörg
Jörg
Cool! They are seen only so briefly in the episodes, really nice to finally see them up close, not just as a blurry screencaps, but as real graphics! Thanks for that! :-)
Jörg
Jörg
Yeah, the EF Academy logo was on Sinclair's "downtime" shirt and Lochley also wore a similar shirt in "Day of the Dead."
Hey, Reverend, did your costume contact provide with any pictures of the EF rank devices and stat bars for your rank chart?
He's shown me some of the stat bars and he says he has some of the other pieces too and will send along some reference in due course. I've actually been working on the rank chart a little but have put off posting an update until I see what this guy has.
Though I did manage to solve one mystery for him; that being the origin of a green coloured EF Command Division patch. He'd been told that it was used on a marine uniform but had never spotted it. I came across in 'Endgame' it when I was looking for rank insignia. One is worn on each sleeve of the senior NCO of the Mars ground station in lieu of rank, though I just assumed it was a standard yellow one and didn't realise it was green till he showed me the photo.
As for the academy logo is concerned, it might be significant to note that Sinclair and Lochley were at the academy at the same time for at least a year.
Though I did manage to solve one mystery for him; that being the origin of a green coloured EF Command Division patch. He'd been told that it was used on a marine uniform but had never spotted it. I came across in 'Endgame' it when I was looking for rank insignia. One is worn on each sleeve of the senior NCO of the Mars ground station in lieu of rank, though I just assumed it was a standard yellow one and didn't realise it was green till he showed me the photo.
As for the academy logo is concerned, it might be significant to note that Sinclair and Lochley were at the academy at the same time for at least a year.
Reverend:
Forgive me if you know some of this information already.
First row: The blue officers uniforms are the Space Navy of EarthForce, i.e. those who run starships, space stations, etc. The brown officer uniforms are for ground pounders, i.e. Marines. The gray is EarthForce security. The last, of course, is dress. Although the first season dress was slightly different and included a leather waist belt with EF logo buckle.
Second row: The blues are Space Navy enlisted; also the collars and epaulets should be a dark brown, not black. The security gray, iirc from a JMS post, is civilian-contract security, not necessarily EarthForce but fall under the purview of EF Security on military installations like Babylon 5. Of course, this doesn't seem to jive with Zack Allen who is later shown as being a Warrant Officer in EarthForce ("Sleeping in Light").
The second gray with black trousers was a re-purposed security uniform for Mars civilian police, after it gained it's independence from Earth. The third is civilian-contract security on Mars when it was under Earth jurisdiction. The last three are all variations of pilot uniforms. The blue jumper being the one associated with Starfury pilots. The brown being a utility jumpsuit worn by pilots and others. I don't recognize the green one.
Thrid one: The first three, obviously, are GROPOS. The last three are civilian contract technicians ware, from maintenance to dock workers.
Wow... that is awesome. It's about time there was a Babylon 5 uniform recognition chart! 
Reverend:
Forgive me if you know some of this information already.
First row: The blue officers uniforms are the Space Navy of EarthForce, i.e. those who run starships, space stations, etc. The brown officer uniforms are for ground pounders, i.e. Marines. The gray is EarthForce security. The last, of course, is dress. Although the first season dress was slightly different and included a leather waist belt with EF logo buckle.
Second row: The blues are Space Navy enlisted; also the collars and epaulets should be a dark brown, not black. The security gray, iirc from a JMS post, is civilian-contract security, not necessarily EarthForce but fall under the purview of EF Security on military installations like Babylon 5. Of course, this doesn't seem to jive with Zack Allen who is later shown as being a Warrant Officer in EarthForce ("Sleeping in Light").
The second gray with black trousers was a re-purposed security uniform for Mars civilian police, after it gained it's independence from Earth. The third is civilian-contract security on Mars when it was under Earth jurisdiction. The last three are all variations of pilot uniforms. The blue jumper being the one associated with Starfury pilots. The brown being a utility jumpsuit worn by pilots and others. I don't recognize the green one.
Thrid one: The first three, obviously, are GROPOS. The last three are civilian contract technicians ware, from maintenance to dock workers.
From what I can tell, The EF NCO leather is in fact black. see here At least as far as I can tell.
As for the security uniforms, the third is actually specifically for prison guards. If you look closely you'll see they're a somewhat lighter shade of grey and the B5 Security manual describe them as such.
The only one's I wasn't sure about were the green and beige pilots uniforms. I'd assumed they were Marine and Shuttle pilots respectively but couldn't be sure. On the other hand the beige one was worn by the scientist/survey team from "A Voice in the Wilderness" so perhaps it was meant to be just a generic non-combat flight suit. The green one as far as I can tell only cropped up in a few episodes of Crusade, so was probably one of the "new" post-hiatus costumes.
As for the maintenance ones, I just wasn't sure if the different colours meant anything specific, relating to their jobs.
And yes, I realise about half of these are civilian contract uniforms, this is just a rough assembly of what I've got so far, in no particular order. I think I still have about a dozen or so to go.
As for Zack, the way I understand it, he was given a field promotion by Sheridan (not sure if there's a real world precedent for this) to replace Garibaldi as the CWO and Security Chief and when the civil war was over, all those under Sheridan were given amnesty which I assume means his personnel changes were upheld (he also promoted Ivanova before officially retireing.) Where it get's fuzzy is with the exact status of B5 and it's staff from Season 5 onwards. The station is still independent, but under command of an EF officer, though Corwin (her second) and Zack are still both in the "Army of Light" uniforms. Presumably at some point Zack left the station and was granted a comission (or whatever you call it for a non-com) on the basis of his role and experiance on B5. Then retired and re-upped again about six months before SiL.
Great B5 stuff there
Is there a site for these for my B5 fan friends for these?
None to do with me, though I have been sticking a few of my logos up on the B5 wiki where appropriate.
Reverend:
Forgive me if you know some of this information already.
First row: The blue officers uniforms are the Space Navy of EarthForce, i.e. those who run starships, space stations, etc. The brown officer uniforms are for ground pounders, i.e. Marines. The gray is EarthForce security. The last, of course, is dress. Although the first season dress was slightly different and included a leather waist belt with EF logo buckle.
Second row: The blues are Space Navy enlisted; also the collars and epaulets should be a dark brown, not black. The security gray, iirc from a JMS post, is civilian-contract security, not necessarily EarthForce but fall under the purview of EF Security on military installations like Babylon 5. Of course, this doesn't seem to jive with Zack Allen who is later shown as being a Warrant Officer in EarthForce ("Sleeping in Light").
The second gray with black trousers was a re-purposed security uniform for Mars civilian police, after it gained it's independence from Earth. The third is civilian-contract security on Mars when it was under Earth jurisdiction. The last three are all variations of pilot uniforms. The blue jumper being the one associated with Starfury pilots. The brown being a utility jumpsuit worn by pilots and others. I don't recognize the green one.
Thrid one: The first three, obviously, are GROPOS. The last three are civilian contract technicians ware, from maintenance to dock workers.
From what I can tell, The EF NCO leather is in fact black. see here At least as far as I can tell.
As for the security uniforms, the third is actually specifically for prison guards. If you look closely you'll see they're a somewhat lighter shade of grey and the B5 Security manual describe them as such.
The only one's I wasn't sure about were the green and beige pilots uniforms. I'd assumed they were Marine and Shuttle pilots respectively but couldn't be sure. On the other hand the beige one was worn by the scientist/survey team from "A Voice in the Wilderness" so perhaps it was meant to be just a generic non-combat flight suit. The green one as far as I can tell only cropped up in a few episodes of Crusade, so was probably one of the "new" post-hiatus costumes.
As for the maintenance ones, I just wasn't sure if the different colours meant anything specific, relating to their jobs.
And yes, I realise about half of these are civilian contract uniforms, this is just a rough assembly of what I've got so far, in no particular order. I think I still have about a dozen or so to go.
As for Zack, the way I understand it, he was given a field promotion by Sheridan (not sure if there's a real world precedent for this) to replace Garibaldi as the CWO and Security Chief and when the civil war was over, all those under Sheridan were given amnesty which I assume means his personnel changes were upheld (he also promoted Ivanova before officially retireing.) Where it get's fuzzy is with the exact status of B5 and it's staff from Season 5 onwards. The station is still independent, but under command of an EF officer, though Corwin (her second) and Zack are still both in the "Army of Light" uniforms. Presumably at some point Zack left the station and was granted a comission (or whatever you call it for a non-com) on the basis of his role and experiance on B5. Then retired and re-upped again about six months before SiL.
Great B5 stuff there
Is there a site for these for my B5 fan friends for these?
None to do with me, though I have been sticking a few of my logos up on the B5 wiki where appropriate.
oh ok then
I'll just point them to this thead instead then when i see them next
It may also have to do with the lighting. It's always appeared to be a dark brown, much like the officer uniforms, on screen, to me.
That uniform was also worn by the Mars security personnel, with the same red-orange EF Mars patch, that investigated the Edgars crime scene in "The Face of the Enemy."
Moreover, and this may just be me, the gray of the Mars uniforms is no different than the ones used on Babylon 5 as seen in the episodes they appear in.
The B5 Security Manual contains some inaccuracies. For example, it states that the division patch is worn on the left chest (on pg. 50) when it is actually worn on the left shoulder. It's the EA badge that's worn on the left breast.
It also states an "EA command patch with your name on it is worn on the left breast (and, where appropriate, any off-world patch)" on page 48. Unless Mortimore/Adams/Clark were trying to refer to Pilot's uniforms, but the preceding paragraph doesn't make that clear as it infers the standard duty ones.
So I'm not sure how reliable it is as a primary source of information. Then again, there isn't a whole helluv a lot of information at there.
A Warrant Officer is a rate or a commissioned officer depending on the service. In Zack's case, I don't know what that term would be for his promotion, especially since EarthForce (or Earthforce, I've seen it spelled both ways, kinda like Star Fleet and Starfleet) is a combined service.
We know from Thirdspace that he is a trained Starfury pilot. Perhaps he previously served in EarthForce then left. When he took Garabaldi's place as Chief of Security or left the station, maybe his EF status was later reinstated.
As for Ivanova's promotion, it shouldn't have been in Sheridan's authority to promote her. He could've recommended her and put her name before the promotion board, but not just up her from commander to captain.
Babylon 5, like Star Trek, hasn't always been accurate to modern military practice and regulations despite JMS's claims to the contrary. So I can look the other way, much like I have with Kirk's rapid promotion in the new movie.
At least, JMS never put Franklin in command of the station like Dr. Crusher taking command of the Enterprise. Although, he did put Franklin in the captain's chair of a White Star... aw nuts. Well, it wasn't a combat situation like it was with Crusher. So I guess it's still okay.
^
Dr. Crusher HAD to be in command in that scenario... Counselor Troi, Riker, Worf, Data, Geordi... all the other senior officers who would have been next in the chain of command, were down on the planet where Lore's Borg were... Beverly was the only seniormost officer left, who could assume command of the Enterprise.
Dr. Crusher HAD to be in command in that scenario... Counselor Troi, Riker, Worf, Data, Geordi... all the other senior officers who would have been next in the chain of command, were down on the planet where Lore's Borg were... Beverly was the only seniormost officer left, who could assume command of the Enterprise.
I don't think so. I've looked at better shots of her, the other crewman from 'A Call to Arms' as well as the Aggie & Apollo crews in 'Endgame' and it all looks black to me, especially when seen next to the red/brown leather uniforms.
Granted the Security Manual is a dubuous source for reliable info and most of the insignia/uniform descriptions read as if they were written during the pre-production of 'The Gathering'. Still, I did notice that the prison guards had a noticeably lighter (though otherwise identical) uniform to the normal security officers, though of course lighting may or may not have been a factor there.
On the subject of the Security Manual, I've been trying to put together a half decent map of B5 and the one in the book has a number of inconsistencies, completely leaves out brown sector and I'm not certain if yellow sector is even canon.
Well given that Garibaldi's uniform had the "officer" black panel down the front of the uniform, then he (and by extension Zack) was probably the commissioned kind.
That wouldn't surprise me. A fair amount of ex-soldiers end up in Police forces or security companies. Still, he was seen piloting a shuttle in Season 4 and it could be that getting his Starfury certification was part and parcel of his promotion. Still, that wouldn't preclude his having already served in Earthforce at some point.
Well to be fair, it's not a modern military, it's a fictional future one. So realistically it ought to have as much in common with today's armed forces as today's have with those of the mid-1700's. Still, for the life of me I can't decide if Major should go between Lt & LtCmd or Capt & Col. I've heard all the arguments for both and yet I'm still not sure.
P.S. I thought I was getting a little deja vu, until I've realised we've had this discussion before!
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Fo'sho.
That's a toughie since Major Keemer seemed subordinate to Commander Sinclair, but that may have to do with him being in overall charge of the station. And Captain Sheridan seemed subordinate to Major Ryan.
Oh, my. So we have.
Well in those cases, rank and position don't exactly go hand in hand. For one thing, Sinclair (and Sheridan for that matter) was a military governor of a small city, answerable directly to the President and the Senate. Plus I don't recall Jeff snapping off any salutes to the Captain of the Hyperion, despite him technically being a superior officer. As for Kemmer, again, she was outside of the local chain of command and again, as head of presidential security, answerable directly to the President.
As for Ryan, I didn't get any sense of either of them acting subordinate to the other, though Ryan was inclined to take Sheridan's lead, given that he was A) a renegade seeking shelter in Sheridan's turf, so not in any position to be barking orders and B) apparantly not a jar head. They're clearly both senior officers, it's just not clear which one is higher up the pay grade.
My main sticking point though, is how can a full General and Joint Chief of Staff rate an adjutant who's only one grade higher than a Lieutenant?
Probably not an airtight comparison, but when I worked as a civvie in the orderly room of an Army RHQ, the CO was a LtCol, both the Adj and the TechAdj were Captains and the 2IC was a Major. As far as I know, there wasn't any officer lower than Major in the whole building, just a Staffy that I worked with, our boss, a WO2 as chief clerk and the RSM, a WO1.
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