Chrysalis: universally reviled, or unfairly persecuted?

[flemm]

Totally disagree. Whether you find him interesting or not is a matter if opinion I guess, but even among the characters on Deep Space Nine, the growth over the course of the show of Bashir - a character who on first impressions has no obvious baggage, unlike Sisko, Kira or Odo - is quite dramatic. In seven seasons he goes from idealistic, enthusiastic to a fault albeit somewhat inept socially and professionally to cynical and rather jaded but accomplished professionally and personally. In short, I think the character was handled exceedingly well by the writers.

Well, it certainly is a matter of opinion, and I'm glad you found the character interesting

One problem here of course is the revelation in the middle of the run that the character up to that point had been something of a fraud. You have to wonder how inept he really was given that he was downplaying his abilities to avoid being seen as superhuman, and how idealistic he was given that he was systematically deceiving everyone.

This is a retcon of the character of course, but you do have to account for it when discussing the arc of the character over seven seasons. This in itself might have been interesting if it had been delved into, but the writers seem to have chosen the path of least resistance on this one. Fortunately, they didn't do this often on DS9.

And friends (as well as lovers, siblings, co-workers, etc) lie to each other all time, I don't think for a second his 'mutant' revelation would prompt the dissolution of Bashir's friendship with O'Brien, it was shown time and again to be much more solid than that.

Certainly, friends and lovers lie to each other. Some of those lies may be white lies, and others may never be revealed. However, the revelation of lies and deceit can be a serious threat to any relationship built on trust.

In this case, we are not talking about a single lie, but a constant stream of them. This is especially true because Bashir and O'Brian's relationship was a partly competitive one. And then O'Brian finds out that Bashir has been intentionally downplaying his abilities. Basically O'Brian (and everyone else) learns that Bashir is an entirely different person than they thought, and yet they seem to have no reaction

That doesn't mean that the friendship might not have survived. But it really needed to be addressed more directly than it ever was. There was a bit of tension during the final arc which gave a hint of how this change might have affected their friendship, but I think there needed to be more.

 

[Myasishchev]

I think I recall a scene in Dr. Bashir, I Presume, where O'Brien convinces him to not sabotage himself at darts, and he just dominates him. So he makes him stand over in the corner, as a handicap.

Okay, that's not exactly an in-depth exploration of how the deception affected their friendship, but it was something.

 

[Michael]

I've never understood the hate this episode gets. It's one of my personal favorites, probably my favorite of the "quiet" episodes ...

I absolutely agree. I love Chrysalis! When I originally watched it I only found it to be average, but after having it rewatched some years ago I thought that I finally got it. Since then it has become one of my favorites.

Using them again as generic talking heads as part of a worthless 'love interest of the week' story in Chrysalis completely ruined their characters, though; not to mention that antiquated, lame 'love interest of the week' nonsense formula had already worn out it's welcome way back in TOS.

It's not your typical 'love interest of the week' storyline! Which is exactly why I love this episode so much. Actually that's how I originally perceived this episode as well. But when you watch closely there isn't one single moment where it is indicated that Sarina is returning Bashir's feelings. The only thing she ever feels for him is gratitude, because he cured her from her catatonia. It's just that he misread that gratitude as affection. It's actually pretty tragic if you think about it.

And I think that meditation on how easy it can be to mix profession with personal life is what set that episode apart from the typical 'love interest of the week' episode we got in Star Trek. It once again demonstrated that our good doctor is just a flawed human being and by no means perfect. And that's one of the reasons why I love his character so much.

And I'd be remiss to not point the standout scene of the episode. Serena finding her voice with the mutants' help is about the most beautiful thing I've ever seen in Star Trek, and I feel pity for anyone who isn't at least a little exhilirated by that wonderful scene.

Personally I wouldn't call it 'the most beautiful thing I've ever seen in Star Trek', but it sure was a magical scene that felt very special. I remember getting goosebumps when I first saw — and heard — it.

Her issue was that she had an incredibly high drive in terms of emotion and believed everyone was in love with her. While a lot of people wouldn't see that as an issue, if you end up unable to function due to thinking everyone loves you (not in an ego way) it really would screw up your relationships with everyone.

What are you even talking about? Am I missing something?

Oh, and why is everyone constantly misspelling her name as Serena? Actually it's Sarina, which is a rather beautiful name.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I couldn't stand it. I was even predisposed to like it, having liked the previous appearance of the Jack Pack...but it was just way too cringeworthy; I almost felt embarrassed to be watching.

 

[Tulaberry whine]

Totally disagree. Whether you find him interesting or not is a matter if opinion I guess, but even among the characters on Deep Space Nine, the growth over the course of the show of Bashir - a character who on first impressions has no obvious baggage, unlike Sisko, Kira or Odo - is quite dramatic. In seven seasons he goes from idealistic, enthusiastic to a fault albeit somewhat inept socially and professionally to cynical and rather jaded but accomplished professionally and personally. In short, I think the character was handled exceedingly well by the writers.

Well, it certainly is a matter of opinion, and I'm glad you found the character interesting

One problem here of course is the revelation in the middle of the run that the character up to that point had been something of a fraud. You have to wonder how inept he really was given that he was downplaying his abilities to avoid being seen as superhuman, and how idealistic he was given that he was systematically deceiving everyone.

This is a retcon of the character of course, but you do have to account for it when discussing the arc of the character over seven seasons. This in itself might have been interesting if it had been delved into, but the writers seem to have chosen the path of least resistance on this one. Fortunately, they didn't do this often on DS9.

On second thought, I shouldn't have said Bashir was professionally inept. The problems he had in his job stemmed from the difficulties he had socially and personally, however, from the get go he was portrayed as very capable professionally.

In any case, I don't think the revelation about Bashir made the character a fraud at all. He had always been portrayed as a prodigy of sorts - not that far removed from Wesley Crusher when you think about it. Beyond being socially awkward and throwing the odd game of darts, I can't recall off the top of my head anything he wasn't good at. The admission that he was genetically tampered simply grounded what we already knew about the character.

In fact, I think this revelation about Bashir may have helped people relate to him better. There aren't a lot of prodigies around - but every parent understands the desire they have (and pressure on them) for children to succeed; everybody understands the fear of not measuring up, of being left behind; and everybody understands the sacrifices we make and burdens we take on for our parents, children, families, careers, etc; and Bashir - who on first impression seemed to have it all with little to no effort - was revealed to have paid a heavier price and taken on a bigger burden than most. In other words, it gave him much needed shades of grey.

And it certainly made the character more sympathetic. Let's not forget, Bashir did not ask to be 'tampered' with, and the 'deception' your complaining about him taking part in was, again, something that was thrust upon him.

 

[flemm]

And it certainly made the character more sympathetic. Let's not forget, Bashir did not ask to be 'tampered' with, and the 'deception' your complaining about him taking part in was, again, something that was thrust upon him.

I'm not complaining about the deception per se, or saying that it made Bashir a despicable character, or whatever. My point is that logically it would have impacted his relationship with the crew and especially with his closest friend, O'Brian, and that these consequences should have been explored by the show itself.

Much of what you say about how it might have made Bashir more sympathetic to those around him makes sense, but again, that type of thing really needs to be dealt with by the writers to be anything more than speculation.

For example, your point about this revelation adding a shade of grey to the character that was absent before... I agree the potential was there, but how is this new shade of grey expressed in subsequent episodes? The Bashir of the final seasons is just as prone to idealistic moralizing as the Bashir of the first few seasons (in his dealings with Sloan/Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges).

What I would have liked to have seen done with Bashir is having him actually become an agent of Section 31 Now that would have been awesome! If you think about it, he is the perfect choice... All his life he has been living a lie and deceiving others, and he has superhuman enhancements as well!

 

[Jack Bauer]

I didn't buy Bashir falling for his former patient and they wasted the Jack Pack. The song scene was brilliantly done but other than that the Jack Pack did nothing. A waste of their characters.

 

[Myasishchev]

Personally I wouldn't call it 'the most beautiful thing I've ever seen in Star Trek', but it sure was a magical scene that felt very special. I remember getting goosebumps when I first saw — and heard — it.

I dunno. The only contender I can think of is "Jim--your name is Jim" from TSFS.

Her issue was that she had an incredibly high drive in terms of emotion and believed everyone was in love with her. While a lot of people wouldn't see that as an issue, if you end up unable to function due to thinking everyone loves you (not in an ego way) it really would screw up your relationships with everyone.

What are you even talking about? Am I missing something?

Lauren, he slutty Augment, with super sex enhancements. I was saying that she doesn't seem disabled, like the other three (and then, after Sarina was cured, two). Presumably, she utilizes sex as weapon, but who doesn't? More evidence that the 24th century uses "mental illness" as a very loosely defined term. Then again, she also has extremely poor impulse control, like Jack and Patrick, so it's still arguable that she is dangerous to herself and others...

Oh, and why is everyone constantly misspelling her name as Serena? Actually it's Sarina, which is a rather beautiful name.

Because I didn't look it up and assumed the name had been spelled correctly.

Anyway, I'm rather pleasantly surprised by the results here. Chrysalis gets named a lot as examples of the worst of DS9, but the impression that that feeling is widespread seems to be erroneous.

 

[Michael]

What are you even talking about? Am I missing something?

Lauren, he slutty Augment, with super sex enhancements. I was saying that she doesn't seem disabled, like the other three (and then, after Sarina was cured, two). Presumably, she utilizes sex as weapon, but who doesn't? More evidence that the 24th century uses "mental illness" as a very loosely defined term. Then again, she also has extremely poor impulse control, like Jack and Patrick, so it's still arguable that she is dangerous to herself and others...

Ahh, so it turns out I did miss something. Now I understand. Thanks for the clarification.

Anyway, I'm rather pleasantly surprised by the results here. Chrysalis gets named a lot as examples of the worst of DS9, but the impression that that feeling is widespread seems to be erroneous.

I dunno, I think the majority still doesn't like it that much. I'd say the outcome of the poll has more to do with people who like the episode being more likely to come into this thread and vote in the first place. I could be wrong, though, but this is my impression. But then again, I guess I don't really care what others think about the episode. It won't change the fact that I love it.

 

[Spot]

I love Chrysalis! All the season 7 eps get a 9 or a 10 from me with the exceptions of Emperor's New Cloak (which is the worst ep of the entire show, imho) and Take Me Out to the Holosuite (which has definately grown on me but still isn't a fave).

 

[Tulaberry whine]

And it certainly made the character more sympathetic. Let's not forget, Bashir did not ask to be 'tampered' with, and the 'deception' your complaining about him taking part in was, again, something that was thrust upon him.

I'm not complaining about the deception per se, or saying that it made Bashir a despicable character, or whatever. My point is that logically it would have impacted his relationship with the crew and especially with his closest friend, O'Brian, and that these consequences should have been explored by the show itself.

See, I don't think it would have greatly impacted his relationships on the show. And IMO, the idea O'Brien is somehow so angered, threatened or offended by Bashir finally coming clean that their friendship is ends up on the skids rings very false to me and rather melodramatic. Surely it was clear O'Brien understood why Bashir kept the genetic tampering a secret, beyond that I don't think there's much there to explore.

Much of what you say about how it might have made Bashir more sympathetic to those around him makes sense, but again, that type of thing really needs to be dealt with by the writers to be anything more than speculation.

I mean more sympathetic to viewers; Bashir was after all apparently the most hated character on the show in its early seasons. Revelations about a troubled childhood, the genetic modification without his knowledge or permission, the strained relationship with his parents, the secrets he had to keep, etc, no doubt helped audiences relate to him a bit better.

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

It's not one of my favorites but I think it's a decent episode, mostly because of the Jack pack. I thought Jack was really funny. I loved Patrick's "That's a stupid question" routine. And I automatically give Lauren a pass because she's played by Hillary Shepard Turner, who also played Divatox--one of the most fun, unapologetically campy TV villains of the last 2 decades--on Power Rangers Turbo.

I wasn't so enthused with the love story.

 

[D Man]

It's a middling episode by post-DS9 Trek standards, and pretty dull by DS9 standards...but lip-synching aside, boy do I love the musical number. You may look at my signature and think I changed it just for this thread, but as a musician I've had that sig since I joined the BBS . "Love stories of the week" are pretty much always lame on Trek, but when they get in-story music right, it's pretty cool. Modern Trek's music was usually terrible after Ron Jones left during TNG (at least until around S3 of ENT) so for the music to actually be engaging in any way is nice to see from the Berman "sonic wallpaper" years.