What's the Big Lesson in STXI?

[SalvorHardin]

Every TOS movie has given us a Big Idea or Big Lesson in its storytelling.

<SNIP>

What is the Big Idea or Big Lesson in STXI?

I don't know, what do you think the overly-obvious, obnoxious hit-you-over-the-head-with-the-meaning-of-the-film-because-the-writers-are-no-damn-good-at-subtext "message" of the film was? Because I surely would like to see more hackneyed allegories and obnoxious morals of the story to get in the way of actual storytelling.

Maybe we should consult the Wheel of Morality?

Well, isn't Chekov 17 ?
They could have McCoy lecture him for a couple of minutes on what drugs are, what are its effects and why he should avoid them.
Big lesson right there. Especially since this movie was for the mindless, pot smoking MTV generation.

Can everything be turned into s***, even Star Trek??

What challenge ? This has already been done.
By 2 movies and several tv episodes in the past.

 

[Sci]

Every TOS movie has given us a Big Idea or Big Lesson in its storytelling.

<SNIP>

What is the Big Idea or Big Lesson in STXI?

I don't know, what do you think the overly-obvious, obnoxious hit-you-over-the-head-with-the-meaning-of-the-film-because-the-writers-are-no-damn-good-at-subtext "message" of the film was? Because I surely would like to see more hackneyed allegories and obnoxious morals of the story to get in the way of actual storytelling.

Maybe we should consult the Wheel of Morality?

Well, isn't Chekov 17 ?
They could have McCoy lecture him for a couple of minutes on what drugs are, what are its effects and why he should avoid them.
Big lesson right there. Especially since this movie was for the mindless, pot smoking MTV generation.

"The Wheel of Morality adds educational value to what would otherwise be an almost entirely entertaining program!"

 

[Trilliam]

THe message of the movie this:

Obsessed fans who don't have lives, are going to nitpick, obsess and generally carry on like a goose about flaws in the movie. The rest of us will snuggle up with our SOs, discuss how much fun the movie was, then get on with living.

And no., at 48yo & 52, we are NOT the MTV generation. We remember b&w telly AND the time before decimal currency, and TOS in it's first run in b&w.

 

[Cheapjack]

I think if they put an explicit message in ST12, it will be relevant to today's generation. I might not get it, or it may not be relevant to me. It might be something like: 'You don't let drugs control you, you use them to enhance your life', or 'Sometimes it's necessary to kill someone, in the defence of the greater public good'. Or, maybe,' The good guy can win in the end, even though he's done some bad things and isn't perfect'.

Or, maybe not.

 

[RAMA]

Trek XI does not have the thematic focus of TWOK. It does have an underlying, though somewhat jumbled, theme imo: the question of how do we deal with loss. Nero is driven mad by his loss. Spock tries to deny the reality of his grief. Kirk at first runs from the reality of his father's sacrifice, but later embraces his father's memory and overcomes his fear.

Its not that jumbled at all, even the TRAILER focused on it! The most important one, and which is arguably the central focus of the movie....Kirk's loss....without it, he never would have joined Starfleet or vidicated himself. Of the main characters, Nero dealt with it the worst. Despite Nero's power, Kirk and Spock did prove to deal with it better and came out on top.

RAMA

 

[RAMA]

THe message of the movie this:

Obsessed fans who don't have lives, are going to nitpick, obsess and generally carry on like a goose about flaws in the movie. The rest of us will snuggle up with our SOs, discuss how much fun the movie was, then get on with living.

And no., at 48yo & 52, we are NOT the MTV generation. We remember b&w telly AND the time before decimal currency, and TOS in it's first run in b&w.

Yeah exactly. The lesson is: despite nearly universally good reviews and box office, ST fans will still moan and groan.

 

[RAMA]

I think this movie wanted to at least dabble with the idea of the forces of fate v. the degree to which one controls one's own destiny. I think it did a mixed job of it at best. It never seemed to want to come down on one side or the other. Was Kirk fated to be the captain of the Enterprise, or did he control the events that led him there? Coincidences and chance meetings lead one to believe the writers may have thought fate was a more powerful force than personal control. Is that a good message or not?

This was my observation well, and I think it's very interesting that they chose to go this route, especially since it's more in fashion to imply that one is in control of his or her own destiny. However, like Franklin points out, you almost get the feeling from the movie that fate has pretty strong ideas about what must happen and she's going to get her way, darn it.

It's an unexpected implication to make. I like it and hope it's a theme that's further explored. Destiny vs. free will is nothing new, but it's somewhat unusual for destiny to be given the upper hand.

This is a theme that completely contradicts the thematic heart of Trek. Trek is always about fighting destiny and choosing free will, not that we are fated to be something.

There is one level where the time travel influences events though does not directly create them.....however, free will is still important in the movie...in fact Sarek mentions Spock has to choose his path, and he winds up doing the unexpected for Vulcans. Kirk also goes beyond his "repeat offender" delinquent childhood--something a lot of people don't grow out of--and chooses to go into Starfleet.

 

[Cheapjack]

Trek XI does not have the thematic focus of TWOK. It does have an underlying, though somewhat jumbled, theme imo: the question of how do we deal with loss. Nero is driven mad by his loss. Spock tries to deny the reality of his grief. Kirk at first runs from the reality of his father's sacrifice, but later embraces his father's memory and overcomes his fear.

Its not that jumbled at all, even the TRAILER focused on it! The most important one, and which is arguably the central focus of the movie....Kirk's loss....without it, he never would have joined Starfleet or vidicated himself. Of the main characters, Nero dealt with it the worst. Despite Nero's power, Kirk and Spock did prove to deal with it better and came out on top.

RAMA

That's not a BIG message though, is it? You can get messages like that in your average daily soap. With a budget of 100 million, I was expecting a little bit more. Star Trek is BIG, it's operatic.

Just to have a movie with any message, even the 'brat makes it as a captain', is a brave thing in these amoral times, I suppose.

 

[Sci]

Trek XI does not have the thematic focus of TWOK. It does have an underlying, though somewhat jumbled, theme imo: the question of how do we deal with loss. Nero is driven mad by his loss. Spock tries to deny the reality of his grief. Kirk at first runs from the reality of his father's sacrifice, but later embraces his father's memory and overcomes his fear.

Its not that jumbled at all, even the TRAILER focused on it! The most important one, and which is arguably the central focus of the movie....Kirk's loss....without it, he never would have joined Starfleet or vidicated himself. Of the main characters, Nero dealt with it the worst. Despite Nero's power, Kirk and Spock did prove to deal with it better and came out on top.

RAMA

That's not a BIG message though, is it?

That's subjective. For all that you think that's not a "big" message, it's one that many people in real life never learn -- how to overcome tragedy and forge a better life for yourself. Edited to add: And better that message than some hackneyed, forced, over-the-top "lesson" that gets in the way of actual storytelling. (Star Trek V, I'm lookin' at you.) End edit.

I took the basic message of the movie to be even simpler, though -- and one that's actually very important to hear in a time of war, economic downturn, and social uncertainty:

Better days are coming.

 

[RAMA]

Trek XI does not have the thematic focus of TWOK. It does have an underlying, though somewhat jumbled, theme imo: the question of how do we deal with loss. Nero is driven mad by his loss. Spock tries to deny the reality of his grief. Kirk at first runs from the reality of his father's sacrifice, but later embraces his father's memory and overcomes his fear.

Its not that jumbled at all, even the TRAILER focused on it! The most important one, and which is arguably the central focus of the movie....Kirk's loss....without it, he never would have joined Starfleet or vidicated himself. Of the main characters, Nero dealt with it the worst. Despite Nero's power, Kirk and Spock did prove to deal with it better and came out on top.

RAMA

That's not a BIG message though, is it? You can get messages like that in your average daily soap. With a budget of 100 million, I was expecting a little bit more. Star Trek is BIG, it's operatic.

Just to have a movie with any message, even the 'brat makes it as a captain', is a brave thing in these amoral times, I suppose.

Its a huge message, its often difficult to understand what makes one person go under while others prosper and overcome tragedy. If you are not exposed to such things maybe you don't understand and should live life a little more before making such statements.

Kirk may have been a brat but don't you understand character growth?? Kirk may still be a hotshot, but he's different from when he was a kid. I dare say over the period of years it takes to produce one or two more films, that Kirk will be much like he was in the original timeline...unfortunately a lot of fans don't really have 3-dimensional, creative thinking, and they think this Kirk is it.

RAMA

 

[RAMA]

Its not that jumbled at all, even the TRAILER focused on it! The most important one, and which is arguably the central focus of the movie....Kirk's loss....without it, he never would have joined Starfleet or vidicated himself. Of the main characters, Nero dealt with it the worst. Despite Nero's power, Kirk and Spock did prove to deal with it better and came out on top.

RAMA

That's not a BIG message though, is it?

That's subjective. For all that you think that's not a "big" message, it's one that many people in real life never learn -- how to overcome tragedy and forge a better life for yourself. Edited to add: And better that message than some hackneyed, forced, over-the-top "lesson" that gets in the way of actual storytelling. (Star Trek V, I'm lookin' at you.) End edit.

I took the basic message of the movie to be even simpler, though -- and one that's actually very important to hear in a time of war, economic downturn, and social uncertainty:

Better days are coming.

Ah I was writing mine while you posted this...we're on the same wavelength. I agree, STV and STVI had very forced messages...STTMP had a worthy message that was badly executed, storywise at least, and STIV was fun and entertaining but its message was overly obvious. A ST movie having its main theme as part of the action is new to ST fans I think, and therefore they think there aren't any...

RAMA

 

[Cheapjack]

Its a huge message, its often difficult to understand what makes one person go under while others prosper and overcome tragedy. If you are not exposed to such things maybe you don't understand and should live life a little more before making such statements.

RAMA

I sent of two thousand letters for work at one point, Rama, and got one reply. And that's only one year of my 42 year life. I've seen people who were five groups below me at school drive around in the latest car.

I know hardship, I'm just not like kids today. At least they have cars and girlfriends and some money.

Back to the thread.

 

[SalvorHardin]

I know hardship, I'm just not like kids today. At least they have cars and girlfriends and some money.
.

I don't think you really have any idea about kids today. Certainly not as much as you think you do.

And in any case even if they were so bad, they didn't spring from the ground... Maybe you old folks should take a good look in the mirror and do a better parenting or teaching job.
The world young people live in today is a world of your making....not theirs. Their turn has yet to come.

 

[Cheapjack]

I know hardship, I'm just not like kids today. At least they have cars and girlfriends and some money.
.

I don't think you really have any idea about kids today. Certainly not as much as you think you do.

And in any case even if they are so bad, they didn't spring from the ground... Maybe you old folks should take a good look in the mirror and do a better parenting or teaching job.

I've just seen ST11, mate, I know all about kids today. The people to blame for society today I could name, but we're not supposed to get political on these boards.

There's not much a parent can do apart from teach kids to apply themselves and try hard and not do wrong. And not steal cars as well, perhaps, or be a delinquent.

 

[SalvorHardin]

I've just seen ST11, mate, I know all about kids today.

/discussion

 

[Hartzilla2007]

I don't know, what do you think the overly-obvious, obnoxious hit-you-over-the-head-with-the-meaning-of-the-film-because-the-writers-are-no-damn-good-at-subtext "message" of the film was? Because I surely would like to see more hackneyed allegories and obnoxious morals of the story to get in the way of actual storytelling.

Maybe we should consult the Wheel of Morality?

God I miss that show

THe message of the movie this:

Obsessed fans who don't have lives, are going to nitpick, obsess and generally carry on like a goose about flaws in the movie. The rest of us will snuggle up with our SOs, discuss how much fun the movie was, then get on with living.

I feel all warm and squishy inside, or maybe I sat in something.

 

[RAMA]

I sent of two thousand letters for work at one point, Rama, and got one reply. And that's only one year of my 42 year life. I've seen people who were five groups below me at school drive around in the latest car.

I know hardship, I'm just not like kids today. At least they have cars and girlfriends and some money.

Back to the thread.

Um yeah...and did you know the largest group under poverty level are kids? I bet they do well with their fancy cars...

Hold a grudge much?

RAMA

 

[Cheapjack]

Um yeah...and did you know the largest group under poverty level are kids? I bet they do well with their fancy cars...

Hold a grudge much?

RAMA

They're only young. If they try, they'll get there. Hey, maybe that's what ST11 is all about

 

[Franklin]

This was my observation well, and I think it's very interesting that they chose to go this route, especially since it's more in fashion to imply that one is in control of his or her own destiny. However, like Franklin points out, you almost get the feeling from the movie that fate has pretty strong ideas about what must happen and she's going to get her way, darn it.

It's an unexpected implication to make. I like it and hope it's a theme that's further explored. Destiny vs. free will is nothing new, but it's somewhat unusual for destiny to be given the upper hand.

This is a theme that completely contradicts the thematic heart of Trek. Trek is always about fighting destiny and choosing free will, not that we are fated to be something.

There is one level where the time travel influences events though does not directly create them.....however, free will is still important in the movie...in fact Sarek mentions Spock has to choose his path, and he winds up doing the unexpected for Vulcans. Kirk also goes beyond his "repeat offender" delinquent childhood--something a lot of people don't grow out of--and chooses to go into Starfleet.

This was probably from an interview I read posted on trekmovie.com, I don't remember exactly, but Orci said they once had a line in the script where Spock Prime expressed his fascination at all his old crewmates coming together and exclaimed that the timeline seemed to be operating as if it was trying to heal itself. Trying to make events as much like they "should" be as possible.

Glad they took the line out, actually.

 

[Franklin]

Of course, the lesson of the movie is:

[HOMER SIMPSON] Just be yourself. [/HOMER SIMPSON]