The Kobayashi Maru Test

[Mirror_Barclay]

Kirk was drawing Spock out about the nature of the test, as a prelude to explaining why he did what he did. He wasn't conceding defeat, he was getting his adversary to lay out an argument for him to rip apart. Good tactics, and eminently Kirk-like. Too bad we didn't get to see the conclusion.

It's no different from contemporary military officers cheating in wargames. I imagine it pays off if you do so imaginatively, and display qualities that are desired at that point in the near future, and otherwise is a career-limiter. Trying to recall who I read about doing that... Patton?

 

[Vicki]

Edited to delete the text. I screwed up the quotes somehow and now I don't know who I'm agreeing with. Sorry. I'll find the original post and redo my reply.

 

[Vicki]

What's worse, the new Kirk didn't even bother to be subtle about it. He didn't reprogram the scenario to simply give him a slight advantage in which he could use some kind of ingenious tactic to win. He just wiped out the shields, acting like a jerk, ate an apple, and pretended his hand was a revolver, all apparently under the assumption that no one would figure out he cheated so blantantly.

My read of the scene is completely the opposite. Kirk did what he did to make it blatantly obvious he'd re-written the scenario. To do anything else would be cheating.

To change the scenario to make it slightly easier is cheating - what Kirk did was make the test irrelevant.

After all, there was no way to win the original scenario, so if you don't believe in the no-win scenario, then the test is invalid, and if it's invalid then trying to "tweak" it is pointless.

This is the point Kirk is trying to make.

Even worse, the new Spock acted bewildered at how he could have "won" the scenario after watching him do exactly that.

Unfortunately I think the new Spock was making the common mistake of the brilliant, which is thinking no-one can beat them, so he's flabbergasted by what he's seeing.

Totally agree. The OP's suggestion for what Kirk should have done ~would~ be cheating. This wasn't about beating the test. This was a fundemental difference of opinion about the test itself.

Spock said Kirk failed to understand that the test is about how a captain accepts that he's dealing with a no-win scenario. Kirk's position is that Spock didn't understand his own test. The test rewards cadets who consider all the obvious possibilities, accept that there isn't a solution, and die with dignity. Kirk's point is that the test rewards the cadet who doesn't keep looking for creative solutions.

Sometimes the best outcome is to do something else that redefines winning. As Pike said, "You're here, aren't you."

And it's a nicely subtle touch that their difference of opinion pays off later. Spock as acting captain makes the logical (but wrong) decision. Kirk thinks outside the box and finds a better solution that wins big.

Orci & Kurtman said the original edit of that scene was longer and more confrontational and they thought some of that spilled through to the shorter version. It would be really interesting to see the original edit.

 

[Peter the Younger]

Spock said Kirk failed to understand that the test is about how a captain accepts that he's dealing with a no-win scenario. Kirk's position is that Spock didn't understand his own test. The test rewards cadets who consider all the obvious possibilities, accept that there isn't a solution, and die with dignity. Kirk's point is that the test rewards the cadet who doesn't keep looking for creative solutions.

Sometimes the best outcome is to do something else that redefines winning. As Pike said, "You're here, aren't you."

And it's a nicely subtle touch that their difference of opinion pays off later. Spock as acting captain makes the logical (but wrong) decision. Kirk thinks outside the box and finds a better solution that wins big.

Orci & Kurtman said the original edit of that scene was longer and more confrontational and they thought some of that spilled through to the shorter version. It would be really interesting to see the original edit.

Exactly. As I mentioned in another thread, it seemed to me Kirk's next argument should have been that certain death doesn't teach fear, it teaches fatalism, and that isn't a quality one should be encouraging in your command officers.

As for charge itself, after seeing it a few times I realized what a tightly wound little shit Spock must have been: obviously the Kobayashi Maru is not a letter grade test, it's a psych exam masquerading as a regular test. Command school cadets are required to take it once, and are no doubt evaluated as part of their psych profile. Kirk takes it twice more on a purely elective basis, it's highly unlikely this has any impact whatsoever on any sort of GPA type average, yet Spock feels he has to bring it up as an academic dishonesty charge. This would be a bit like charging a student because they circumvented the rules of a team-building exercise. If we're talking West Point or Annapolis, sure, some ramrod might bring it up as a question of the cadet's honor. But nobody is going to get expelled for it.

 

[npsf3000]

Spock is probably more interested that someone has grievously hacked their computer system.

 

[Sanae]

The only problem I had with this whole affair was having Spock (a character whom I adore) being an insensitive tool bringing up George Kirk's death at the trial. In my very humble opinion, it was totally uncalled for and it almost made me hate Spock.

 

[Kpnuts]

I liked the way they included the traditional Enterprise bridge background noise into this scene. Listen out for it next time.

 

[SilentP]

The only problem I had with this whole affair was having Spock (a character whom I adore) being an insensitive tool bringing up George Kirk's death at the trial. In my very humble opinion, it was totally uncalled for and it almost made me hate Spock.

I'd say that such a remark is uncalled for, but you could imagine that such a remark would only seem logical to point out, since as he saw it, Spock may of thought that Kirk should have understood the purpose of the test, and brought up what seemed to be the perfect way to demonstrate his point.

And that at this point in time, Spock wasn't learning to embrace his human side (his escapades with Uhura aside), so the fact that he's bringing up George's death so directly in arguing with Jim doesn't strike him as insesitive, or if it did, it was completely irrelevant, how Jim Kirk felt about it. Or, if Spock was being manipulative in thinking that stirring up Jim Kirk's feelings about the matter was exactly what Spock needed to do.

...in fact if you take the latter idea as serious, it makes Jim's ripping Spock about his mother look as if he could be getting back at Spock about the point about his dad

 

[Sanae]

I'd say that such a remark is uncalled for, but you could imagine that such a remark would only seem logical to point out, since as he saw it, Spock may of thought that Kirk should have understood the purpose of the test, and brought up what seemed to be the perfect way to demonstrate his point.

And that at this point in time, Spock wasn't learning to embrace his human side (his escapades with Uhura aside), so the fact that he's bringing up George's death so directly in arguing with Jim doesn't strike him as insesitive, or if it did, it was completely irrelevant, how Jim Kirk felt about it. Or, if Spock was being manipulative in thinking that stirring up Jim Kirk's feelings about the matter was exactly what Spock needed to do.

...in fact if you take the latter idea as serious, it makes Jim's ripping Spock about his mother look as if he could be getting back at Spock about the point about his dad

That's another, probably more plausible way of looking at it. But, something in Spock's facial expression (or should I say Quinto's?) made me think that Spock was actually enjoying himself in a perverse way, seeing that his 'logic' was causing havoc on Jim's feelings. I believe that if the conversation had gone on for a bit longer, Jim would have got back at Spock saying that the very fact that he, Jim, was there, was thanks to the fact that his father George had come up with a way out, thus allowing for 800 people to survive what would have otherwise been a no-win scenario.


In any case, the instance in which Jim brings up Spock's mother's death is an entirely different one: Jim wasn't trying to get back at Spock for what he had done during the trial (okay, maybe a teensy little bit) but, rather, he was doing exactly the one thing which would definitely set Spock off and, to be honest, I don't think Jim enjoyed any of it. If anything, he probably felt even worse than Spock did...

 

[SilentP]

That's another, probably more plausible way of looking at it. But, something in Spock's facial expression (or should I say Quinto's?) made me think that Spock was actually enjoying himself in a perverse way, seeing that his 'logic' was causing havoc on Jim's feelings.

Is it me, or do all Vulcans (or actors playing them) always seem to be a bit smug when their logic plays around with the emotions of more 'emotional' races such as humans? I'd say that his facial expression is just a contiuation of that tradition.

In any case, the instance in which Jim brings up Spock's mother's death is an entirely different one: Jim wasn't trying to get back at Spock for what he had done during the trial (okay, maybe a teensy little bit) but, rather, he was doing exactly the one thing which would definitely set Spock off and, to be honest, I don't think Jim enjoyed any of it. If anything, he probably felt even worse than Spock did...

I should have been more explicit, should've mentioned that say from anyone on the bridge's point of view who had also been at the trial (i.e Spock, Uhura, McCoy etc.). I agree with you though, I'd doubt that Jim would have enjoyed it either, since he knows what its like to lose a parent (especially so violently to Nero). He certainly didn't look completely thrilled when he planted himself in the chair, though that may be associated with the fact he had just been strangled

(OFF TOPIC: Anyone else think the coughing noise he made after being released sounded very real? Almost as if Quinto really was choking Pine).

 

[Lonemagpie]

I took it as being that Kirk wanted to make a show of the fact that the test is a completely valueless waste of time.

It's supposed to give the student the feeling of facing certain death - but the student knows he or she is in a simulator, and perfectly safe.

Simulators can train someone to perform tasks quickly and accurately, but expecting one to give the same feeling as genuinely facing certain death is like saying that getting killed while playing an FPS gives you the same sensation as being doomed in reality would.

As for whether it's just a psychological preparation or a demonstration that the student should think outside the box - I'd think the latter is what it becomes *after* Kirk has proved his point about the original purpose. (which is also the tack taken by various novels over the years, IIRC)

 

[Sanae]

@ SilentP : now you mention it, it's true that most Vulcans have that smug look most of the time, as if they knew something you don't (which, in reality, they probably do). Also, yes, I too think that from the Uhura's, et.al. standpoint it could have been seen as Jim trying to get back at Spock but, I think that his real intent becomes obvious to everyone when he starts making some of the difficult decisions which led to him (and the Enterprise's crew) saving the day.

Answering to your OT question: yes, the way Chris coughed sounded way too realistic to be entirely faked. Maybe he asked Zach to squeeze as hard as he could without actually killing him...these actors can be pretty scary sometimes....

Now, back on the topic at hand, I think lonemagpie's post has expressed what I think about the Kobayashi Maru Test: it's true that simulators are meant to train people but, what's the point of having the cadets face a test they *know* they won't pass? I think that Jim indeed proved a point when he thought out of the box and made it possible for him to rescue the stranded ship, after all, it is in desperate situations that one has to get creative, from what I think, the best way to deal with certain death is not by controlling your feelings, is by channelling the fear and desperation into something a lot more productive which, ultimately, may actually get you off the hook. Which is something, I feel, Jim Kirk is quite proficient at. But that's just me...

 

[Omega_Glory]

I was extraordinarily disappointed in the Kobayashi Maru scene. It was way too reminiscent of the Belushi Saturday Night Live Trek skit. The movie dropped a notch for me at that point.

 

[Mr. Wilde]

They got the Kobayashi Maru test totally wrong in the movie, in my opinion.

If you watch Wrath of Khan and read the novel, you get that it is nothing more but a test of character. Cadets are confronted with a no-win-scenario, and what they DO is the important thing. Will they sacrifice the ship? Will they order the crew to the escape pods? Will they go on a collision course? Will they panic? Will they flee? Or are they never actually entering the Neutral Zone because it's too risky? Will they take that 'stupid' test once, twice or three times?

It NEVER was supposed to confront cadets with "fear of certain death". How would it, it's just a simulation. But it is supposed to be a test to simply see how the person reacts in a very critical. Is he a fighter or a lover, stupid or bright, conventional or creative?

At no point in Wrath of Khan is it ever mentioned that Kirk got in trouble for "cheating". In fact, the only one who calls it "cheating" is David, who has a grudge against Kirk and who didn't know the test. Saavik herself didn't get what the test was about, and Kirk constantly made 'fun' of that.

When he teased her with "how we deal with death is just as important as how we deal with life, wouldn't you think", he wasn't talking about the purpose of the test, he was trying to give her "something new to think about".

The novel of Wrath of Khan has a nice additional scene, it's the briefing after Saavik did the test, which makes it clear to me that it's about evaluating the character of the cadets. Kirk confronts her with another situation: a ship on the high sea sinks, and she and another person have escaped in a small boat that can only carry one of them, the water is full of sharks. And Kirk asks her: would she sacrifice the illiterate criminal without a family, or herself, a highly trained Starfleet officer with a great future ahead? Then Saavik gets pretty angry about that kind of scenario. And in the end, Kirk smiles and compliments her for turning the argument upside down in an effective manner.

So you simply pass the test by doing it. There is no right and no wrong, it's just a test to see what kind of person the cadet is. But you get an evaluation based on your reactions. And Kirk passed the test even better than anyone else by getting the idea of reprogramming the simulation. That is why he got a commendation for original thinking.

***

What bother's me the most is that the scene has absolutely no purpose for the story of the new movie. While the Kobayashi Maru, the no-win-scenario, the line "how we deal with death..." was a central theme to Wrath of Khan and major part of the character development, the test in the new movie could be cut out completely and it wouldn't make ANY difference.

And then it reminded me of Galaxy Quest. I'm sorry, but this is true. Jason Nesmith, totally drunk, sitting on the bridge thinking he's doing a fanfilm in a basement, ordering to fire everything they have and then just walking away.

 

[Ovation]

They got the Kobayashi Maru test totally wrong in the movie, in my opinion.

If you watch Wrath of Khan and read the novel, you get that it is nothing more but a test of character. Cadets are confronted with a no-win-scenario, and what they DO is the important thing. Will they sacrifice the ship? Will they order the crew to the escape pods? Will they go on a collision course? Will they panic? Will they flee? Or are they never actually entering the Neutral Zone because it's too risky? Will they take that 'stupid' test once, twice or three times?

It NEVER was supposed to confront cadets with "fear of certain death". How would it, it's just a simulation. But it is supposed to be a test to simply see how the person reacts in a very critical. Is he a fighter or a lover, stupid or bright, conventional or creative?

At no point in Wrath of Khan is it ever mentioned that Kirk got in trouble for "cheating". In fact, the only one who calls it "cheating" is David, who has a grudge against Kirk and who didn't know the test. Saavik herself didn't get what the test was about, and Kirk constantly made 'fun' of that.

When he teased her with "how we deal with death is just as important as how we deal with life, wouldn't you think", he wasn't talking about the purpose of the test, he was trying to give her "something new to think about".

The novel of Wrath of Khan has a nice additional scene, it's the briefing after Saavik did the test, which makes it clear to me that it's about evaluating the character of the cadets. Kirk confronts her with another situation: a ship on the high sea sinks, and she and another person have escaped in a small boat that can only carry one of them, the water is full of sharks. And Kirk asks her: would she sacrifice the illiterate criminal without a family, or herself, a highly trained Starfleet officer with a great future ahead? Then Saavik gets pretty angry about that kind of scenario. And in the end, Kirk smiles and compliments her for turning the argument upside down in an effective manner.

So you simply pass the test by doing it. There is no right and no wrong, it's just a test to see what kind of person the cadet is. But you get an evaluation based on your reactions. And Kirk passed the test even better than anyone else by getting the idea of reprogramming the simulation. That is why he got a commendation for original thinking.

***

What bother's me the most is that the scene has absolutely no purpose for the story of the new movie. While the Kobayashi Maru, the no-win-scenario, the line "how we deal with death..." was a central theme to Wrath of Khan and major part of the character development, the test in the new movie could be cut out completely and it wouldn't make ANY difference.

And then it reminded me of Galaxy Quest. I'm sorry, but this is true. Jason Nesmith, totally drunk, sitting on the bridge thinking he's doing a fanfilm in a basement, ordering to fire everything they have and then just walking away.

A thoughtful critique, but I respectfully disagree with the premise that "you simply pass the test by doing it". If that were so, then what could possibly motivate Kirk to do it three times? The answer is that he believes what he says--he doesn't believe in the "no-win scenario". Since the test ONLY presents a "no-win scenario" to its takers AND Kirk clearly believes there is no such thing (leaving aside whether Kirk is correct), then repeated attempts at the test can only be fueled by a desire to show that "no-win scenarios" are a waste of time.

Now, perhaps the JJKirk solution is less elegant than the one, presumed by many, adopted by "Kirk-prime" (influenced by apocryphal versions from novels and fan-fic), but that is quite consistent with the character changes owing to the altered circumstances of his upbringing. Regardless of "style", though, the intent is the same--to show that the test is a waste of time. To have been more than slightly more subtle in his "cheat", Kirk would not have made his point at all. Accusations of "academic mischief" would be quite in order. However, by being so blatant, it is clear Kirk wants to put the test on trial--and that is exactly what happens. We are prevented from getting Kirk's full reasoning because of other events in the story (something I found a little disappointing, as I'm a long-time fan of Trek and enjoy little tidbits like that, though I understood the desire not to get bogged down in a "courtroom drama" atmosphere), but there are enough elements, IMO, to strongly imply Kirk was inviting the kind of scrutiny his behaviour elicited.

 

[Jeyl]

We are prevented from getting Kirk's full reasoning because of other events in the story (something I found a little disappointing, as I'm a long-time fan of Trek and enjoy little tidbits like that, though I understood the desire not to get bogged down in a "courtroom drama" atmosphere), but there are enough elements, IMO, to strongly imply Kirk was inviting the kind of scrutiny his behaviour elicited.

And that's a redeeming quality, how? It's not like the whole sequence had anything to do with the plot. The Kobayashi Maru is never brought up again after the debacle and Kirk's "I don't believe in the no-win scenario" is pretty flawed in on itself.

If he doesn't believe in no-win scenarios, why is he in such a panic to stop the Enterprise from reaching Vulcan? This type of behavior is more fit for a cadet who would say "We can't help the Kobayashi Maru because it's in Klingon territory. We go in there, we'll risk the ship", not a "I don't like to lose, let's go in guns blazing".

So there you have it. Kirk didn't want to go to Vulcan even knowing it was under attack and he ended up not saving the planet when he was ordered to. So not only did he act out of his "I don't believe in no-wins" attitude, he freaking loses! Does anything about this get mentioned? No. Does he feel bad about failing in his mission to save Vulcan? No. Does he try to support or even consider that Spock's plan was actually the right thing to do at the time? No. He goes into a rampage, assaults two security officers and almost assaults Spock*. How is Spock unfit for command compared to what Kirk does?

*What else was he going to do?

 

[Rackon]

I was surprised someone thought Spock looked smug. I didn't read that at all.

I'm not a Vulcan, but I am a Virgo. Sometimes - when we feel we're merely pointing out the "obvious" and dare I say "logical" fatcs - folks get very annoyed with us Vulcan..er... Virgos

It just seems so obvious and reasonable to us you see.

So I have some sympathy for Spock. He was actually pretty patient IMO. And he has those little bumps/lines between his brows which give him a look of slight intensity even in repose. Nothing intended at all.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

I don't know. If I was a cadet who was training in this simulation, I wouldn't come up with the conclusion that we beat the no-win scenario, I'd say that the whole program crashed and that resulted in things acting out of the ordinary. Nothing Kirk did in the simulation even hinted that what was about to happen happened. It just did. So not only is Kirk acting like an incompetent rookie who refuses to understand how things work, he does it in a way that not only disrespects every other cadet in the simulation, but also the ones who designed the bloody thing.

It's like if a student cheated on a essay he/she was supposed to write about a book they just read, and when they were caught, they'd simply say the book is useless because they don't believe it will have any relevance in their life, just like what Kirk thought about the no-win scenario. And what do we do in the end? We turn this kid into the teacher of the class.

Yeah they totally should have charged directly into a trap without shields and get blown to pieces, and Kirk should feel bad because Olsen was a moron who got himself fried along with the charges, and feeling sorry for themselves and Spock was way more important than stopping the psychopath that was going around blowing up planets, and they should have gone ALL THE WAY TO THE ASS END OF NOWHERE and meet up with the rest of the fleet I mean all those planets and billions of people that Nero would destroy in the mean time weren't than important .

 

[Ovation]

We are prevented from getting Kirk's full reasoning because of other events in the story (something I found a little disappointing, as I'm a long-time fan of Trek and enjoy little tidbits like that, though I understood the desire not to get bogged down in a "courtroom drama" atmosphere), but there are enough elements, IMO, to strongly imply Kirk was inviting the kind of scrutiny his behaviour elicited.

And that's a redeeming quality, how? It's not like the whole sequence had anything to do with the plot. The Kobayashi Maru is never brought up again after the debacle and Kirk's "I don't believe in the no-win scenario" is pretty flawed in on itself.

If he doesn't believe in no-win scenarios, why is he in such a panic to stop the Enterprise from reaching Vulcan? This type of behavior is more fit for a cadet who would say "We can't help the Kobayashi Maru because it's in Klingon territory. We go in there, we'll risk the ship", not a "I don't like to lose, let's go in guns blazing".

Your hatred for the new Kirk is clouding your judgement. He is trying to prevent the ship from going into a trap that, without his warning, would have meant certain doom (it is the fact he realizes this that saves the Enterprise).

So there you have it. Kirk didn't want to go to Vulcan even knowing it was under attack and he ended up not saving the planet when he was ordered to.

Wrong. He did not want to BLINDLY go to Vulcan and have the ship destroyed without being able to even ATTEMPT to save Vulcan. Big difference.

So not only did he act out of his "I don't believe in no-wins" attitude, he freaking loses! Does anything about this get mentioned? No. Does he feel bad about failing in his mission to save Vulcan? No. Does he try to support or even consider that Spock's plan was actually the right thing to do at the time?

Spock's plan, to rendezvous with the fleet, is NOT the right thing to do at the time. It is exactly the WRONG thing to do. That's the point of his outburst. Kirk was right and Spock was wrong.

No. He goes into a rampage, assaults two security officers and almost assaults Spock*. How is Spock unfit for command compared to what Kirk does?

*What else was he going to do?

Did you watch the entire movie? Spock makes a crucial error in judgement (by choosing to head to the fleet--AWAY from the primary threat) and then tries to kill a crew member that he had already, quite without reason, summarily marooned rather than simply incarcerated. Kirk stepped out of line when he argued so vociferously on the bridge, not mention assaulting the security officers, but Spock is hardly the paragon of orderly leadership. Again, your hatred of the new Kirk is distorting your views of other people and events in the film.

 

[Anticitizen]

Your hatred for the new Kirk is clouding your judgement. He is trying to prevent the ship from going into a trap that, without his warning, would have meant certain doom (it is the fact he realizes this that saves the Enterprise).

That, and Sulu flubbing the parking brake. The real reason is, of course, that Nero recognized the Enterprise and stopped his assault.

Spock's plan, to rendezvous with the fleet, is NOT the right thing to do at the time. It is exactly the WRONG thing to do. That's the point of his outburst. Kirk was right and Spock was wrong.

Actually, Kirk's advice to go directly to Earth would have destroyed the ship as well. It was only the fact that Spock marooned him that he conveniently met Spock Prime and Scotty and was given the long-range transport formula that allowed them to beam to the Narada all the way from Titan.

Therefore, it's incorrect to say it's as simple as 'Kirk was right and Spock was wrong'.