Buffy Season Six...better than I remembered.

[Skywalker]

Did I call it, or what? Of course Buffy was right all along, and the Potentials were punished for turning against her. Shame on them!

There really isn't much for me to say about "Chosen," since I managed to catch it when it first aired back in May 2003 (hey, it's the Buffy series finale, you gotta watch it). I hadn't seen Firefly at the time, so I couldn't geek out about Nathan Fillion as Caleb (he was excellent, as always). I enjoyed the finale, but it really felt a little rushed. Activating every Potential Slayer in the world at once seemed a little too quick and easy. The series finale really should have been a two-parter, I think, and I kind of wish the First's goal of being made flesh had been met, so that () Buffy could vanquish it permanently. But Joss Whedon's too much of a nihilist killjoy for that kind of ending.

So, my overall opinion on Season Seven? I enjoyed it more than Season Six, which, while it did get better after a second viewing, was just way too grim and depressing and didn't feel BTVS-ish at all. It was a decent way to end the series, even if the Potentials never truly lived up to their...er...potential.

I've actually gone back and started going through Season One again. I'll watch Seasons Two and Three afterward, because it's been a couple years since I watched any of them. I just went through Season Four a few months ago, and finished S5 not long before I got S6, so I don't really have a need to watch them again so soon.

Although, maybe I will. Except maybe this time I'll actually watch Angel at the same time (post-S3), in chronological order.

 

[RoJoHen]

Although, maybe I will. Except maybe this time I'll actually watch Angel at the same time (post-S3), in chronological order.

That's what my friend made me do, and it's actually pretty awesome watching them that way.

 

[Lindley]

It's pretty much a straight alternating sequence between B&A up until the tail end of season 4/7. At that time you have to start watching multiple Angel episodes between each pair of Buffys in order to make verything line up.

 

[hyzmarca]

Seasons 6 and 7 look much better in light of Season 8, which couldn't have taken the direction that it has without the build up provided by the earlier two.

 

[Evil Twin]

It's pretty much a straight alternating sequence between B&A up until the tail end of season 4/7. At that time you have to start watching multiple Angel episodes between each pair of Buffys in order to make verything line up.

Could you recommend a good viewing order for these? Currently watching both shows for the first time simultaneously (on the second disc of 7/4 now) and seen several lists around the net, but as I haven't seen the episodes yet, I can't tell which is the best.

As far as my two cents on S6, I enjoyed it for the most part. Not sure why some people hate it. It's not the best or anything, but it's definitely better than S4, as Adam and the Initiative were super lame, and the Trio were fun to watch. Like them a lot more than Glory, who was kind of tacky and annoying.

 

[Lindley]

The first time it matters is B: "Lies My Parents Told Me"/A: "Orpheus". Which order those two go in is mostly a matter of preference; I prefer "Lies" first. This means you need to get an episode or two ahead on Buffy by then.

I'd go with B: "Dirty Girls" directly after whichever of the above two is second.

After that:
A: "Players"
A: "Inside Out"
A: "Shiny Happy People"
B: "Empty Places"
A: "The Magic Bullet"
A: "Sacrifice"
A: "Peace Out"
B: "Touched"
A: "Home"
B: "End of Days"
B: "Chosen"

Again, there's a matter of preference whether you put "Home" or "End of Days" first. I prefer it as above.

 

[Praetor]

Did I call it, or what? Of course Buffy was right all along, and the Potentials were punished for turning against her. Shame on them!

I think it would have been stronger had Buffy ultimately been the one who had to admit she was wrong.

There really isn't much for me to say about "Chosen," since I managed to catch it when it first aired back in May 2003 (hey, it's the Buffy series finale, you gotta watch it). I hadn't seen Firefly at the time, so I couldn't geek out about Nathan Fillion as Caleb (he was excellent, as always). I enjoyed the finale, but it really felt a little rushed. Activating every Potential Slayer in the world at once seemed a little too quick and easy. The series finale really should have been a two-parter, I think, and I kind of wish the First's goal of being made flesh had been met, so that () Buffy could vanquish it permanently. But Joss Whedon's too much of a nihilist killjoy for that kind of ending.

I like your suggestions. Overall, I'm glad you mostly enjoyed it.

 

[Turd Ferguson]

I'm watching Buffy for the first time straight through right now, and have three episodes left on season four. Through websites and such, I have a pretty vague idea about what's coming up, but I have to say, season four's been a bit of a disappointment, so far.

I realized I didn't like the Initiative, and I really don't like Riley Finn, although he's become more likable since Adam killed the Professor and he's been seeing Buffy more. But, what I think this season is lacking is a likable villain. I thought The Master in season one was pretty boring, but I loved Spike and Angel as the season two villains, and I thought Mayor Richard Wilkins III was hilarious in season three with Faith.

When the Mayor and Principal Snyder got killed, I was pretty unhappy since they were two of my favorites, and Adam is a pretty poor substitute as a major (likable) baddie. The episode where Faith wakes up and hangs around the Mayor in her dreams really brought back a Season three feel to it, so I guess this shows only really good when there's a villain that's actually entertaining. So, I'm hoping there's some more of those in seasons five, six and seven.

 

[RoJoHen]

I'm watching Buffy for the first time straight through right now, and have three episodes left on season four. Through websites and such, I have a pretty vague idea about what's coming up, but I have to say, season four's been a bit of a disappointment, so far.

I realized I didn't like the Initiative, and I really don't like Riley Finn, although he's become more likable since Adam killed the Professor and he's been seeing Buffy more. But, what I think this season is lacking is a likable villain. I thought The Master in season one was pretty boring, but I loved Spike and Angel as the season two villains, and I thought Mayor Richard Wilkins III was hilarious in season three with Faith.

When the Mayor and Principal Snyder got killed, I was pretty unhappy since they were two of my favorites, and Adam is a pretty poor substitute as a major (likable) baddie. The episode where Faith wakes up and hangs around the Mayor in her dreams really brought back a Season three feel to it, so I guess this shows only really good when there's a villain that's actually entertaining. So, I'm hoping there's some more of those in seasons five, six and seven.

I felt the same about Season 4. It is, in fact, my least favorite season just because I didn't give a shit about anything going on. The Initiative was dumb. Adam was worse. Riley was boring.

Season 5 definitely has an entertaining villain, so that's something to look forward to.

 

[exodus]

Many people talk out of both sides of their mouth like Xander, that's why the divorce rate is so high. Take into account that Anya was the only woman that paid Xander enough attention and had sex with him. That's all they ever based their relationship on.

And if they'd gone with an angle like that, it might have been fine... But they didn't, and the episode makes that obvious. He bolted because the episode pounded into his head that he was just like his parents. However, he unilaterally decided to end things at the altar without discussing things with anyone. Sure, he was shaken by the whole demon encounter, but you think he'd have taken a moment to discuss his feelings with somebody (who would have put some sense into his head) instead of walking out on the wedding at the most unforgivable moment.

Again, this was another situation the writers decided to force the worst possible resolution to in order to draw out more angst on the characters, even when it didn't make sense to do so... Maybe they could have still called off the wedding, but he should have at least tried to talk to Anya about it first...

As for her being his 'only'. Again, that might have made sense, but that's not the angle they played. Afterward, he didn't let her go or anything... He left her alone after a while, but it was obvious the entire time that he only wanted her to come back to him, but she was still hurt (naturally). He never exactly went out to play the field again, though, or expressed any interest in doing so. As far as I know, he only had one (unenthusiastic) date with another person in S7, and didn't really talk to any other girls in a romantic capacity, even after the house was swarming with them when the Potentials showed up.

The fact that he did behave that way showed that he did have some of his parents influence in him. Xander's always been part nice guy, part jerk. He wouldn't have believed the vision if he didn't already believe some part of him was like that already. It wasn't like he was never a douche bag to Buffy when Angel was around.

 

[Praetor]

I'm watching Buffy for the first time straight through right now, and have three episodes left on season four. Through websites and such, I have a pretty vague idea about what's coming up, but I have to say, season four's been a bit of a disappointment, so far.

I realized I didn't like the Initiative, and I really don't like Riley Finn, although he's become more likable since Adam killed the Professor and he's been seeing Buffy more. But, what I think this season is lacking is a likable villain. I thought The Master in season one was pretty boring, but I loved Spike and Angel as the season two villains, and I thought Mayor Richard Wilkins III was hilarious in season three with Faith.

When the Mayor and Principal Snyder got killed, I was pretty unhappy since they were two of my favorites, and Adam is a pretty poor substitute as a major (likable) baddie. The episode where Faith wakes up and hangs around the Mayor in her dreams really brought back a Season three feel to it, so I guess this shows only really good when there's a villain that's actually entertaining. So, I'm hoping there's some more of those in seasons five, six and seven.

I felt the same about Season 4. It is, in fact, my least favorite season just because I didn't give a shit about anything going on. The Initiative was dumb. Adam was worse. Riley was boring.

Season 5 definitely has an entertaining villain, so that's something to look forward to.

Agreed wholeheartedly. Season four is the one season I don't own, because it has no rewatch value for me. Like you said, I can't force myself to give a shit about any of it.

 

[NileQT87]

Make sure to watch Angel: the Series (1999-2004). It ran concurrently with BtVS during seasons 4 through 7 and then another season after the BtVS finale. There's a lot of crossovers that go both ways (Faith will make no sense the next time you see her without AtS). The next episode of season 4 there is going to be a head-scratcher without the corresponding AtS episodes (Sanctuary/The Yoko Factor).

I'm an unabashed AtS pimp. My favorite show ever.

 

[Skywalker]

^ If that post was for my benefit, don't worry. Angel is by far my favorite of the two Buffyverse shows, with Wesley being my overall favorite Buffyverse character. I actually finished watching Angel before I finished Buffy.

I must be in the minority about Season Four, because I enjoyed it. Riley never bored me, and I thought the idea of the Initiative was a good one (though the execution was somewhat lacking). Both shows suffered from weak fourth seasons, though.

 

[Forbin]

I actually like Riley a lot, and thought he was the right kind of guy for Buffy (like, NOT a fucking vampire). But none of the writing staff had clue one about how anything military worked, which made the Initiative confusing and laughable.

 

[cultcross]

I think Whedon has made it pretty clear that he has no idea how the military work, not even the basics. That much is obvious every time they appear in his work. Which is fine, I don't begrudge him not knowing everything about everything, but perhaps passing some of season 4 by a military consultant might have helped!
The things I didn't like aobut Riely though weren't based on the military stuff, they were just based on the fact that he was incredibly.. lame compared to Angel. The writers clearly thought so - they wrote an episode where for no particular reason Angel shows up to beat the crap out of him and make him appear a jealous pompous asshole.

That insecurity is what made me dislike him, which is slightly perverse because Buffy's messing him about was the start of my falling out with her character. Yeh, that makes no sense, I know!
Anyway, I think the Buffy/Riley relationship was a low point for the show and I'm glad they wrote Riley out and had him marry someone else.

 

[NileQT87]

With The Yoko Factor and Angel's appearance... You kind of need to see Sanctuary from AtS to understand what's going on there. The reason for Angel to come was he came to apologize to Buffy for what he said at the end of Sanctuary (though, Buffy should have been the one apologizing for rubbing Riley into his face) and to basically leave their relationship on a better note.

Of course, finding out about Angel turns out to be the beginning of the end of Riley's relationship with Buffy. That's why it's important.

The fighting was mostly a misunderstanding. Angel arrived to apologize, got jumped by the Initiative (not Riley), Riley thought that Buffy had messed around with Angel during her L.A. trip because Angel was fighting the soldiers (though, in defense), Riley attacked Angel and Angel defended himself (and obviously thrashed him).

You also have to realize that the first thing Angel learned about Riley (besides that Buffy has moved on with yet someone else) was that he slept with Faith (Faith blurts it accidentally--of course, referring to the body-switch where Faith was in Buffy's body). Angel didn't even hear about the body-switch part. And Spike had just blabbed to Angel in In The Dark that Buffy got used and dumped by Parker. Hearing about Parker and Riley sleeping with Faith was everything Angel knew about Buffy's new attempts at relationships.

And even though Angel wanted Buffy to move on, he did and he didn't. They obviously split for reasons beyond their control. This shows quite clearly in Sanctuary where Angel comments on the fact that Buffy's moved on, but he never can.

Of course, besides Angel, Dracula adds to Riley's insecurity, which leads to the vamp whores. And of course, Spike led Buffy to finding out about that in an attempt to break them up. Angel is the seed that grows Riley's insecurity with Buffy. And of course, the first thing Riley learns about Angel beyond Buffy's sanitized version is that Angel lost his soul by sleeping with Buffy (Xander blabs this at the beginning of The Yoko Factor).

I do pretty much entirely and extremely hate Riley (I'm a fan of the vamps), but there is some AtS information there that you must consider with The Yoko Factor confrontation.

 

[Praetor]

I actually like Riley a lot, and thought he was the right kind of guy for Buffy (like, NOT a fucking vampire). But none of the writing staff had clue one about how anything military worked, which made the Initiative confusing and laughable.

I think Whedon has made it pretty clear that he has no idea how the military work, not even the basics. That much is obvious every time they appear in his work. Which is fine, I don't begrudge him not knowing everything about everything, but perhaps passing some of season 4 by a military consultant might have helped!

Yeah, agreed, actually - as much as I loathe Riley, it initially was that "military ineptitude" that soured me on the whole Initiative thing, and in turn, Riley himself. The Initiative was an interesting idea by itself, but was one of those that could either be handled well or be fumbled horribly. As luck would happen, it was fumbled horribly.

But it didn't help that Riley had to fill a vampire's shoes, and when they tried to address this sense of "inadequacy" they made him seem like a pompous ass. I mean, I understand that it's difficult to set up a potential love interest for a strong female lead without having him overshadow her (see: Chakotay) but still. It's not that hard to make a character likable. (Though, again, see: Chakotay.) And I'm not even one who was big on Angel when he was on "Buffy." He was so melodramatic. I preferred him on his own show.

*Angel steps out of the shadows*
Buffy: "Angel, I haven't seen you. Where've you been?"
Angel: "Buffy, the world is about to end..."

 

[Forbin]

I loved the way they always introduced each other in case there were new viewers.

Buffy: "...Angel!"
Angel: "...Buffy."

 

[RoJoHen]

I loved the way they always introduced each other in case there were new viewers.

Buffy: "...Angel!"
Angel: "...Buffy."

Oh, I got so sick of that!

 

[cultcross]

With The Yoko Factor and Angel's appearance... You kind of need to see Sanctuary from AtS to understand what's going on there. The reason for Angel to come was he came to apologize to Buffy for what he said at the end of Sanctuary (though, Buffy should have been the one apologizing for rubbing Riley into his face) and to basically leave their relationship on a better note.

Yeah, I saw Sanctuary. I've seen Angel through many times, and actualyl prefer it to BtVS really - and I still maintain there was bugger all reason for him to actually show up in the Yoko Factor other than so the writers could have him and Riley fight. As they say in the episode itself - he could apologise by phone. For someone who can only travel in the hours of darkness coming all the way upstate to say sorry seems ridiculous. Especially, when, as you say, Buffy was the one seriously out of line in the Angel two parter. The apology should go the other way.

Which actually brings me on to another point - Every one of Buffy's appearences on Angel have managed to make her seem stuck up, arrogant and generally a bitch. I get the impression that either the Angel writing staff don't liek the character, or want to make sure she doesn't overshadow their own lead.

Anyway, I think I just enjoyed seeing Angel own Riley so totally so much that I don't even care about the logic of it. However, the really cringeworthy bits of the Buffy/Riley relationship really began right there. OK, so he finds out she slept with Angel to turn him evil, two years before. I can see it maybe drivign him a bit wacko for a little while. Say a day. Then, he needs to get over himself. The fact that he seemed unable to do that really soured me to his character, and meanwhile Buffy's attitude was quickly sourign me towards her. That whole arc did neither character any favours in my eyes.

But it didn't help that Riley had to fill a vampire's shoes, and when they tried to address this sense of "inadequacy" they made him seem like a pompous ass. I mean, I understand that it's difficult to set up a potential love interest for a strong female lead without having him overshadow her (see: Chakotay) but still. It's not that hard to make a character likable. (Though, again, see: Chakotay.) And I'm not even one who was big on Angel when he was on "Buffy." He was so melodramatic. I preferred him on his own show.

Quite agree, Angel became a truly good character on Angel. He was pretty limited on Buffy, although he did to be fair, have his moments. But they were interspersed too much with him a) acting like a teenager and b) acting out a Twilight melodrama.