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Why our 'amazing' science fiction future fizzled

Monsanto is a truly evil company, and I'm not the only one to think that.

Under their logic if they genetically modified an embryo to make it resistant to HIV, they would patent the gene, the embryo, and then claim that they own the kid.


CuttingEdge100
 
I thought we were discussing "mass transit" as a technological concept, which as you stated has not been held back in any way shape or form by cost.

My thesis was not about the direct cost of anything. My thesis (in answer to the OP's question of "why it fizzled") was to point out two flaws in the assumptions of sci-fi writers of the past: 1) that technology was inherantly "liberating" for man, and would always be a "boon" to him, and 2) that the solution to any social problem man faced was MORE technology.

The flaw in point 1 is that it isn't the EXISTENCE of technology, it's who CONTROLS the technology and the decisions they make that determine whether technology is a boon or a bane.

There was a certain naivete about the uses of technology in earlier times. For instance, let us assume that a factory found technological means to improve productivity 50%.

A worker could expect to benefit in one of two ways (or a combination of the two together): 1) He could fill his daily work quota in half the time, and then be free to do other things he wished with his new-found leisure. or 2) becuse it was easier to make the widget, the price of the widget would come down so that the worker could by MORE of the same widget, or of widgets in general. Either way the worker benefited.

But the corporate overlords who CONTROL the technology had other ideas:

Either 1) fire half the workforce and keep the other half working full days or 2) fire ALL the workforce and take the technology to some other country 9taking advantage of the increase in transportation technology) where they could hire twice the people for a pitiful fraction of the original wages and get the same productivity.

Either way, all of the excess value was drained into the corporate lords' pockets, and the worker saw no improvement at all in his condition.

Technology has led to a huge and increasing DETERIORATION of our society and economy, because it's existance allowed a small portion of the people to seize control of the labor and wealth of all the others.
 
A small portion of people always controlled almost all the wealth. The present day is actually the most egalitarian period in the entire human history.

And technology allowed for increased production in all industrial areas. That increased the standard of living for all people living in highly industrialized nations. That's why you live much better than your equivalent from Somalia or from the middle ages.

Unemployment and worker exploitation problems always existed - regardless of technology.
 
Technology has led to a huge and increasing DETERIORATION of our society and economy, because it's existance allowed a small portion of the people to seize control of the labor and wealth of all the others.

Well that has always been the case, and it will never change, at least not in our lifetimes.

Technology has allowed all of us incredible benefits, including massively improved healthcare, better access to knowledge and information, and generally easier working days, at least in the western world.

Sure it is naiive to call capitalism and the ongoing progression of technology it involves unreservedly good. It isn't - we have lost a lot of our soul along with our technical and media revolution, and plagues like polio and TB have in some ways been replaced with plagues like obesity.

BUT - the absence of technology would leave us a long way back from where we are. We have replaced the feudal system with democracy and freedom of speech, education and information are almost universal.

Technology has advanced at an incredible pace - heck the final episodes of BSG could not have been more apt in their message about this - but I think your conclusion there is unnecessarily cynical.
 
We have replaced the feudal system with democracy and freedom of speech

Try being a pro-union organizer or employee at someplace like Wal Mart and see how much democracy and "freedom of speech" you have...

but I think your conclusion there is unnecessarily cynical.

Cynical or keenly aware of the irony in that the technology that was supposed to free us with efficiency has only made it easier and more efficient to enslave us under different terms.
 
Try being a pro-union organizer or employee at someplace like Wal Mart and see how much democracy and "freedom of speech" you have...

You still have the freedom to choose your government, and a heck of a lot more rights than a peasant! Sure there are still shit jobs, but that is not technology's fault.

Cynical or keenly aware of the irony in that the technology that was supposed to free us with efficiency has only made it easier and more efficient to enslave us under different terms.
Of the two options presented, cynical.

I'm not saying you are 100% wrong, of course you do have a point. But the quest for a fairer and more equitable society is independent from technology.
 
You still have the freedom to choose your government, and a heck of a lot more rights than a peasant! Sure there are still shit jobs, but that is not technology's fault.

When it makes it possible for the corporate lords to take away all the GOOD jobs and leaving only shit jobs I submit that it IS technology's fault.

Cynical or keenly aware of the irony in that the technology that was supposed to free us with efficiency has only made it easier and more efficient to enslave us under different terms.
Of the two options presented, cynical.

Both, actually... :)

I'm not saying you are 100% wrong, of course you do have a point. But the quest for a fairer and more equitable society is independent from technology.

Which is something the writers and thinkers of earlier years did not take into account, assuming automatically that the more tech we had, the better off we would be.

They didn't stop to think things all the way through.

They said, for example: "Automated factories will make things so cheaply that EVERYONE will be able to have them."

They never addressed the fact that when you automated the factories, no one would have a good enough job to AFFORD the autmatically produced goods.
 
Which is something the writers and thinkers of earlier years did not take into account, assuming automatically that the more tech we had, the better off we would be.

Well you certainly have a point there. Most writers on the positive side of the spectrum were as naiive as you claim.

Don't forget though, a lot of sci-fi (and I direct you to the Caprica pilot here) shows just how dark a technologically advanced corporate society can be.

Heck, there is a market out there now for a sci-fi "Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire" about our society at this point, though of course "Caprica" seems to be aiming for just that.

They said, for example: "Automated factories will make things so cheaply that EVERYONE will be able to have them."

They never addressed the fact that when you automated the factories, no one would have a good enough job to AFFORD the autmatically produced goods.

Well that is not the best example as the amount of white goods and electronics in the average home these days is astonishing, but I know what you mean.

As my first post in the thread said, the bit sci-fi writers get wrong is they concentrate a lot on the technology and less on the interesting bit which is the way in integrates into and changes our society. The biggest technological changes of the last 60 years were prophecied cleverly in the case on nuclear weaponry, but not at all really regarding the Internet.
 
Which is something the writers and thinkers of earlier years did not take into account, assuming automatically that the more tech we had, the better off we would be.

Well you certainly have a point there. Most writers on the positive side of the spectrum were as naiive as you claim.

By the same token, there were writers I think that at least had an inlking. Wells springs to mind. "The Time Machine"'s Eloi and Moorlocks take on some interesting dimensions if you examine them from a context of "technology control as social control".

Certainly "Metropolis" cannot be said to be naive on the subject.

Don't forget though, a lot of sci-fi (and I direct you to the Caprica pilot here) shows just how dark a technologically advanced corporate society can be.

Truer now than it was then, you must admit.

They said, for example: "Automated factories will make things so cheaply that EVERYONE will be able to have them."

They never addressed the fact that when you automated the factories, no one would have a good enough job to AFFORD the autmatically produced goods.

Well that is not the best example as the amount of white goods and electronics in the average home these days is astonishing, but I know what you mean.

Can't even open the newspaper anymore without it hitting you right in the face it seems... :)

As my first post in the thread said, the bit sci-fi writers get wrong is they concentrate a lot on the technology and less on the interesting bit which is the way in integrates into and changes our society. The biggest technological changes of the last 60 years were prophecied cleverly in the case on nuclear weaponry, but not at all really regarding the Internet.

I can kind'a see that. The other problem I have with their lack of vision (at least where much early sci-fi is concerned) is that they seemed to think that technology would change human nature.

I think the bulk of sci-fi writers in the 40s-60s saw technological advance as the primary means by which "true communism" would advance.

Their theory being: if we just have ENOUGH tech, and the RIGHT tech, then need will be abolished and man's "better instincts" will prompt him to automatically make sure that the benefits of the tech will be shared by all.

They dismissed the power of human greed, along with the ability of the greedy to find ways to hide their greed or make their greed acceptable to the masses.
 
CNN has an interesting read on

Why our 'amazing' science fiction future fizzled
May 29, 2009
http://www.cnn.com/2009/TECH/science/05/29/jetpack/
This reminds me so much of conversations I have with some younger guys at work. They're often more computer literate than I am, but they don't have perspective when it comes to new technology and how science really works. In some cases I can be more forward thinking than them even though I'm twice their age.
 
Our corporate/political overlords are only powerful because we give them power. If we just choosed to ignore them, I mean everyone, they would become utterly irrelevant. Of course thats the ideal. The vast majority would have to make the same decision. But thats all it would take, one decision, one refusal to obey. Unfortunately most people in this world are divided and consequently conquered and many more actually want to follow the rules.
 
Our corporate/political overlords are only powerful because we give them power. If we just choosed to ignore them, I mean everyone, they would become utterly irrelevant. Of course thats the ideal. The vast majority would have to make the same decision. But thats all it would take, one decision, one refusal to obey. Unfortunately most people in this world are divided and consequently conquered and many more actually want to follow the rules.

That decision would have to be made simultaneously by the vast majority of the people, and they would have to fight for it. Those who currently hold our wealth captive won't give it up without bloodshed.
 
Our corporate/political overlords are only powerful because we give them power. If we just choosed to ignore them, I mean everyone, they would become utterly irrelevant. Of course thats the ideal. The vast majority would have to make the same decision. But thats all it would take, one decision, one refusal to obey. Unfortunately most people in this world are divided and consequently conquered and many more actually want to follow the rules.

That decision would have to be made simultaneously by the vast majority of the people, and they would have to fight for it. Those who currently hold our wealth captive won't give it up without bloodshed.

It kind of happened in the 60s and they got very very frightened, so much so that they introduced a piece of legislation, can't remember the name, which gives extra judicial powers to the army and police force in the event of widespread disobediance. It happened with Ghandi in a way too. If you have a few obeyers ie the army who don't think independently, just follow the orders of their political masters as this is their cognitive set up (I'm generalizing here), even so, if the vast majority just refuse to cow down, who is going win? Yes the majority will have to stand up and fight but the elites are nothing without people who recognize them as such. Therefore they need the populace to attribute that value to them. So genocide is unlikely as they would be killing the very people they need.

But aren't elites people like you and me? Yep, I don't think theres a big conspiracy against us, its a collective irrationality, the way this pyramid scheme is set up. But as we know many humans are profoundly irrational.

I think there may be a weak tenuous link between technology and human development. The internet allows freer dissemination of info, which means we're more interconnected than ever before. This could reduce the prospect of racism for example. Technology is a human construct, its part of evolution so its not unreasonable to suppose that it can affect it and with more sophisticated tech it may not be unreasonable to argue that it will lead to more sophisticated humans, ergo primitive authoritarian driven cultures as exemplified by politics, corporate syndicates and religion in many cases may die out.

The strength of capitalism resides in its flexibility owing to its own internal complexity as manifested in the markets. However an alternate social libertarian scheme would imo, be more in keeping with our nature as we are social empathic creatures as opposed to the pathological consumers we're indoctrinated to become. Such a system would be equally complex as it necessitates the dissolution of centralized authoritarian institutions.

The internet can be considered an expression of anarchism. No one has any real control yet. The emphasis being on yet as net neutrality is a serious issue. But the genie is out of the bottle so to speak. Even if corporations got their way with it, our net nerd heros could in theory set up alternative internets using the technology available to them. In fact all it would take would be for one company not to participate and offer the service we have now, thereby generating huge profits.

Ultimately there seems to be a major struggle between where we'r'e going and where we've come from. Authoritarian structures which worked in the past as we were evolving are conflicting with where we are now. This struggle will resolve itself as everything in nature tries to reach equilibrium.
 
John Titor,

It kind of happened in the 60s and they got very very frightened, so much so that they introduced a piece of legislation, can't remember the name, which gives extra judicial powers to the army and police force in the event of widespread disobediance.

What piece of legislation is this? I've actually never heard of that...


CuttingEdge100
 
Oh, I read about REX-84, I didn't know that it was created for the purpose you described.

It is rather disturbing that Northcom has an active unit in this country dedicated for use in dealing with unrest.


CuttingEdge100
 
I'd think another reasoning for not developing flying cars or jetpacks that a common person can purchase would be the increase in terrorist threat. Imagine a terrorist group getting their hands on easily bought and customizable flying vehicles? Of course the answer would be to give the police forces and government forces flying vehicles themselves but that would basically be creating a lower-level arms race.

That said, Ray Bradbury did predict people owning audio media devices they could put in their ears and people obsessed with their "interactive stories" in Farenheit 451.
 
Terrorists? Oh, please; there are hardly any of them left, most are in the Christian camp.

Now, I can imagine jetpacks and the like haven't really caught on because they're simply silly. They were thought of by a science-fiction author. And, in those days, they seemed like the ultimate solution to problems that plagued those people. However, when you think about it, they're not actually all that practical. Where would you leave your jet pack, for example, at work? Or where would you refuel? It also wouldn't be very practical do clean dead birds off your suit when you're about to give a presentation.
 
Well, new markets would be opened to deal with that thing (Jetflyer Washes, Jetflyer refueling stations, Jetflyer storage areas) and new products (Jetflyer cleaner, guaranteed to get the bird poo off in 30 seconds!).

But yeah, the potential misuse by criminals and how much damage could be done would be a serious concern.
 
Perhaps, but creating that infrastructure is a massively huge undertaking, costing trillions and trillions of dollars world-wide, taking at least a decade to set up. Who's going to take the first plunge? Consumers, who can't refuel anywhere? Or businesses, who don't have the consumers to make it worthwhile? Most businesses don't look ahead. Years, perhaps, but certainly not decades.
 
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