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United Federation of Planets & Starfleet

James Wright

Commodore
Commodore
What was the date when the charter was signed forming the Federation of Planets, how long after thr charter was signed was Starfleet formed?
Do you think Shran joined Starfleet?

James
 
What was the date when the charter was signed forming the Federation of Planets, how long after thr charter was signed was Starfleet formed?
Do you think Shran joined Starfleet?

James

The United Federation of Planets was established in 2161. The novel Enterprise: Last Full Measure establishes it to have been on 12 August.

The Federation Starfleet was probably established and raised by the Federation Council soon after.
 
i believe anyone who was in the MACOs, Earth Starfleet, Andorian Imperial Guard, the Tellarite's space navy and Vulcan High Command (such as was left) all got drafted into UFP Starfleet when it formed.
 
Interesting as a sidebar to this topic, I recently picked up #2 of Titan's STAR TREK Comic. In it they have a timeline of events (2110-2161) and seem to narrow down the formation of Starfleet to 2132. Quite how they arrived at that date, I'm uncertain.

Thinking about Enterprise, I've never heard that date anywhere. Trip mentions that the organisation hasn't been around too long during "Broken Bow", something he says Vulcans constantly remind humans about. In another episode, Archer mentions he once thought about joining the Earth Cargo Service, a few years before Starfleet was chartered. But no specific year mentioned, unless there was something in the recent film I didn't spot.
 
Interesting as a sidebar to this topic, I recently picked up #2 of Titan's STAR TREK Comic. In it they have a timeline of events (2110-2161) and seem to narrow down the formation of Starfleet to 2132. Quite how they arrived at that date, I'm uncertain.

Thinking about Enterprise, I've never heard that date anywhere. Trip mentions that the organisation hasn't been around too long during "Broken Bow", something he says Vulcans constantly remind humans about. In another episode, Archer mentions he once thought about joining the Earth Cargo Service, a few years before Starfleet was chartered. But no specific year mentioned, unless there was something in the recent film I didn't spot.

Bear in mind that that's the United Earth Starfleet (UES) they're talking about, not the Federation Starfleet (FS). Even if the FS inherited all of the UES's material and personnel, it would still be a separate legal entity.
 
i believe anyone who was in the MACOs, Earth Starfleet, Andorian Imperial Guard, the Tellarite's space navy and Vulcan High Command (such as was left) all got drafted into UFP Starfleet when it formed.

Not automatically. I believe that each Federation member world can keep some of its own defense forces for purely local matters. (In the DS9 relaunch, not every member of the Bajoran Militia joins Starfleet, for example.)

Do you think Shran joined Starfleet?

If ENT had lasted into a 5th season, Shran would have joined the NX-01's crew, although I don't know if he would have become a Starfleet officer as such. He might have commanded the MACOS (which I always hoped he'd do).
 
I think it's likely that the Federation Starfleet as existed in the 23rd century did in fact not come into being for a long time after 2161. Think about it, the Fed fleet is obviously for the most part founded on the basis of the Earth fleet as evidenced by ship design and crew composition in TOS. Now in 2161 I think one can assume that the Vulcan and Andorian fleets were likely on par with the Earth fleet so it's possible that there was a pre-unified fleet period when the individual members still maintained their own fleets, and only later the Earth fleet grew so rapidly it was transformed into the united fleet. If this happened relatively recently before TOS it would explain the predominantly human crews we see.
 
I think it's likely that the Federation Starfleet as existed in the 23rd century did in fact not come into being for a long time after 2161. Think about it, the Fed fleet is obviously for the most part founded on the basis of the Earth fleet as evidenced by ship design and crew composition in TOS.

Not necessarily. For one thing, the Constitution class's dual hull design looks like it's influenced by Andorian and Vulcan ships. And who's to say how their internal system configurations differ from the NX class's?

As for crew composition -- the Enterprise may have been mostly Human, but the Constitution-class Intrepid was apparently all-Vulcan. Starfleet seems to have practiced species segregation for at least some of its ships in the 23rd Century, so the fact that we happened to have followed a Human-dominated ship isn't evidence that all of Starfleet is/was Human-dominated.
 
I, also, have always thought that, taking ENT and TOS into account, each UFP member had its own forces for a while after the founding of the Federation, and the Federation Starfleet (which might have been called something else at first) drew from the collective forces of these various worlds to achieve its goals. The various governments would share technology, which would be why Earth's ships would draw influences from others. (Heck, if the Klingons and Romulans can share the D7, I think the humans and Vulcans could do a better job... :lol:)

Eventually, probably because Earth Starfleet was more numerous, more driven, and various other factors, the Earth Starfleet basically absorbed and consolidated the other forces and became the "national" fleet, which is why it seemed so human-dominated for so long. Individual planets would maintain their own nominal defensive forces, sort of like a national guard/coast guard.

I've long thought there might have been a small near-civil war over this issue of military absorption into Starfleet sometime in the early 23rd century, in which several worlds might have threatened secession, and which might have been what the Axanar Peace Mission mentioned on TOS was all about. Much more interesting than a conflict with the Klingons anyway. :p
 
I, also, have always thought that, taking ENT and TOS into account, each UFP member had its own forces for a while after the founding of the Federation, and the Federation Starfleet (which might have been called something else at first) drew from the collective forces of these various worlds to achieve its goals. The various governments would share technology, which would be why Earth's ships would draw influences from others.

Sounds about accurate. I'd think that every Federation Member State retains its own domestic space force for use within their territorial jurisdiction, with the Federation President occasionally "federalizing" them, in much the same way that U.S. states maintain their own state defense forces and Army National Guard and Air National Guard units.

Eventually, probably because Earth Starfleet was more numerous, more driven, and various other factors,

I sincerely doubt that the United Earth Starfleet was more numerous than the other space forces of the founding Federation Member States. According to ENT, by 2155, the UES only had two starships that had speeds comparable to those of Vulcan and Andorian ships, Enterprise and Columbia; the UES seems to have other ships, but they seem so slow as to be limited in effectiveness to only one star system at a time. And certain the UES has been shown to have inferior tactical systems. It seems unlikely that Humans, after being on the interstellar scene for such a short time, would rapidly outpace the others in technological innovation.

I would argue that the term "Starfleet" is just a generic English term for a space-based force, in the same sense that "Navy" is just a generic English term for a sea-based force, and that as such, the fact that the United Earth Starfleet and Federation Starfleet share a name in English doesn't mean much and shouldn't be used to indicate that the Federation Starfleet is more the child of the UES than of the other Federation Member States' starfleets.

the Earth Starfleet basically absorbed and consolidated the other forces and became the "national" fleet, which is why it seemed so human-dominated for so long. Individual planets would maintain their own nominal defensive forces, sort of like a national guard/coast guard.

Quick nit-pick: The United States Coast Guard is a federal service that answers to the US federal government, not to any of the state governments, unlike the state national guard divisions.

I've long thought there might have been a small near-civil war over this issue of military absorption into Starfleet sometime in the early 23rd century, in which several worlds might have threatened secession, and which might have been what the Axanar Peace Mission mentioned on TOS was all about. Much more interesting than a conflict with the Klingons anyway. :p

I think that's an excellent conjecture -- if not in terms of the absorption of Federation Member State starfleets, then probably in terms of the relative division of power between the Federation and Member State governments. Is the Federation a state or an alliance? That's probably a major question that was a source for a lot of conflict.
 
I think that's an excellent conjecture -- if not in terms of the absorption of Federation Member State starfleets, then probably in terms of the relative division of power between the Federation and Member State governments. Is the Federation a state or an alliance? That's probably a major question that was a source for a lot of conflict.

AFAIK, Federation member worlds can - and always could - run their own local affairs pretty much however they want, provided they adhere to minimum standards set forth by the UFP constitution: no caste based discrimination, and one-world governmental state. Beyond that, anything goes, really.

As for the absorption of a planet's military: Presumably a prospective member world will know that will happen. If they don't like it, they don't have to join.

I'd think that every Federation Member State retains its own domestic space force for use within their territorial jurisdiction, with the Federation President occasionally "federalizing" them, in much the same way that U.S. states maintain their own state defense forces and Army National Guard and Air National Guard units.

In fact, the DS9 Homefront/Paradise Lost arc was supposed to feature exactly that - the UFP President (Jaresh-Inyo) federalizing native United Earth military forces to help with the growing crisis. But that got cut for time.
 
I, also, have always thought that, taking ENT and TOS into account, each UFP member had its own forces for a while after the founding of the Federation, and the Federation Starfleet (which might have been called something else at first) drew from the collective forces of these various worlds to achieve its goals. The various governments would share technology, which would be why Earth's ships would draw influences from others.

Sounds about accurate. I'd think that every Federation Member State retains its own domestic space force for use within their territorial jurisdiction, with the Federation President occasionally "federalizing" them, in much the same way that U.S. states maintain their own state defense forces and Army National Guard and Air National Guard units.

Thanks. Coming from you, that means a lot. I know how much thought you've put into reasoning out the way the Federation works. :)

Eventually, probably because Earth Starfleet was more numerous, more driven, and various other factors,
I sincerely doubt that the United Earth Starfleet was more numerous than the other space forces of the founding Federation Member States. According to ENT, by 2155, the UES only had two starships that had speeds comparable to those of Vulcan and Andorian ships, Enterprise and Columbia; the UES seems to have other ships, but they seem so slow as to be limited in effectiveness to only one star system at a time. And certain the UES has been shown to have inferior tactical systems. It seems unlikely that Humans, after being on the interstellar scene for such a short time, would rapidly outpace the others in technological innovation.

I would argue that the term "Starfleet" is just a generic English term for a space-based force, in the same sense that "Navy" is just a generic English term for a sea-based force, and that as such, the fact that the United Earth Starfleet and Federation Starfleet share a name in English doesn't mean much and shouldn't be used to indicate that the Federation Starfleet is more the child of the UES than of the other Federation Member States' starfleets.

That might be more accurate. Still, I'd like to find a reason why humans seemed so omnipresent, other than the fact that the various series mostly tended to follow ships manned by mostly humans, and were made for humans. Then again, maybe that was enough...

the Earth Starfleet basically absorbed and consolidated the other forces and became the "national" fleet, which is why it seemed so human-dominated for so long. Individual planets would maintain their own nominal defensive forces, sort of like a national guard/coast guard.
Quick nit-pick: The United States Coast Guard is a federal service that answers to the US federal government, not to any of the state governments, unlike the state national guard divisions.

I know, but it was the closest analogy I could think of. The Coast Guard doesn't really have any super-duper heavy hardware and sticks close to "home," and that was what I was envisioning for the local guard forces of the UFP.

I've long thought there might have been a small near-civil war over this issue of military absorption into Starfleet sometime in the early 23rd century, in which several worlds might have threatened secession, and which might have been what the Axanar Peace Mission mentioned on TOS was all about. Much more interesting than a conflict with the Klingons anyway. :p
I think that's an excellent conjecture -- if not in terms of the absorption of Federation Member State starfleets, then probably in terms of the relative division of power between the Federation and Member State governments. Is the Federation a state or an alliance? That's probably a major question that was a source for a lot of conflict.

Why, I'm doubly honored in a single Sci post. This really is my lucky day. ;)

As for the absorption of a planet's military: Presumably a prospective member world will know that will happen. If they don't like it, they don't have to join.

Yeah, but surely you don't think that would stop anyone from having second thoughts? ;)
 
As for the absorption of a planet's military: Presumably a prospective member world will know that will happen. If they don't like it, they don't have to join.

Yeah, but surely you don't think that would stop anyone from having second thoughts? ;)

Despite what batshit-insane would-be revolutionaries like Michael Eddington might claim, I'm sure that a Federation member world can leave. There's no way the UFP would force anyone to stay if they don't want to. If a world's leadership genuinely believes they can't abide by the Federation's guidelines, which are minimal at best, I'm sure the UFP would be only too happy to shoo them out the door, so to speak.
 
I think that's an excellent conjecture -- if not in terms of the absorption of Federation Member State starfleets, then probably in terms of the relative division of power between the Federation and Member State governments. Is the Federation a state or an alliance? That's probably a major question that was a source for a lot of conflict.

AFAIK, Federation member worlds can - and always could - run their own local affairs pretty much however they want, provided they adhere to minimum standards set forth by the UFP constitution: no caste based discrimination, and one-world governmental state. Beyond that, anything goes, really.

We don't know that, though. It seems to be the popular fan assumption, but I don't think we've ever gotten a clear answer on how power is distributed, either on paper or in reality, between the UFP and its Member State governments. Certainly I'd be really surprised if the Federation Charter/Constitution/Whatever-they're-calling-it-this-week doesn't impose more obligations on Member State governments, including the existence of a democratic government, the protection of free speech, etc.

And, frankly, there's always a question of where one level of government's jurisdiction ends and another begins. For instance, early in American history, it was presumed that the federal government would stay out of the state governments' business, but this created major problems. The Bill of Rights, for instance, supposedly guaranteed that all United States citizens had freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of religion, were protected from unreasonable searches and seizures without a warrant, were protected from cruel and unusual punishments, were guaranteed due process of the law, etc. And yet, at the same time, it was believed that the federal Bill of Rights did not apply to the states -- meaning that while the federal government couldn't do any of this to you, but, for instance, the government of the Commonwealth of Virginia could declare, say, the official church of Virginia to be the Anglican Church and compel taxpayers to subsidize this church; could deny freedom of speech and the press; could arrest you and throw you in jail without due process of the law; could deny you a jury trial; could engage in cruel and unusual punishments. Etc. And all of it was okay under that era's interpretation of federalism. So there's a question of the preservation of the rights of sentient entities as they move from Member State to Member State if we say that the Federation only has a very few requirements of its Member States.

Another example of a potential conflict with that set-up comes from U.S. history. At various points, the federal government has imposed tariffs on goods imported from a given country, or has even tried to bar trade with that country, even though a given state's economy might rely in great part upon trade with that country. What happens if the Federation decides to impose a trade embargo upon the Romulan Star Empire, but the Federation Member State of Antede's economy is heavily reliant upon grade with Romulus? Under a really extreme interpretation of the idea that a Member State can do whatever it wants, Antede might make the same argument that South Carolina did during the Jackson Administration: That it can nullify federal law and do whatever it wants. The Federation might find its efforts to embargo Romulus thwarted by its own Member governments.

The only thing we do know is that the Federation Supreme Court has the right to throw out a law it finds to violate a sentient entity's rights. We do not know if this applies only to Federation laws or also to those of UFP Member States.

Bottom line: We've never really seen a full-on conflict between the UFP government and one of its Member governments. The implication in the minor conflicts we've seen has been that Federation law would prevail, but we don't know for certain.

I'd think that every Federation Member State retains its own domestic space force for use within their territorial jurisdiction, with the Federation President occasionally "federalizing" them, in much the same way that U.S. states maintain their own state defense forces and Army National Guard and Air National Guard units.

In fact, the DS9 Homefront/Paradise Lost arc was supposed to feature exactly that - the UFP President (Jaresh-Inyo) federalizing native United Earth military forces to help with the growing crisis. But that got cut for time.

Fascinating!

Praetor, you are truly too kind. Muchas gracias.

That might be more accurate. Still, I'd like to find a reason why humans seemed so omnipresent, other than the fact that the various series mostly tended to follow ships manned by mostly humans, and were made for humans. Then again, maybe that was enough...

I don't think we should look for any such explanation. If we do, it will inevitably seem to imply that the Federation is significantly less egalitarian than the principles of equality and liberal democracy imply it should be. I say we just accept it as a conceit of the drama that we tend to see Human-dominated ships but Starfleet is not Human-dominated -- same way we just accept it as a conceit of the drama that we happen to hear background music and sounds in space even though they aren't "actually" there. ;)

I know, but it was the closest analogy I could think of. The Coast Guard doesn't really have any super-duper heavy hardware and sticks close to "home," and that was what I was envisioning for the local guard forces of the UFP.

Gotcha. Bear in mind that the Coast Guard does sometimes deploy overseas, though. A close friend of my grandmother's was a USCG officer who served in Vietnam.

As for the absorption of a planet's military: Presumably a prospective member world will know that will happen. If they don't like it, they don't have to join.

Yeah, but surely you don't think that would stop anyone from having second thoughts? ;)

Despite what batshit-insane would-be revolutionaries like Michael Eddington might claim, I'm sure that a Federation member world can leave.

The novels have established that this is the case, and that a number of Member States have either left voluntarily or even been kicked out. Apparently, the world of Cait has a history of joining and then leaving again.

There's no way the UFP would force anyone to stay if they don't want to.

In general, that's probably the case. Of course, you've got to be asking yourself -- what if the world that wanted to leave of was vital strategic or resource importance to the Federation? What if it was a world that the Federation felt it honestly could not survive without?

Then, of course, there's the unanswerable question: If any Federation Member State can leave if the Federation as a whole does something they don't like, what is there to keep the Federation together in the long-run? How can you prevent chaos as everyone packs their bags and goes home because they don't like how the democratic process happens to have played out?
 
I think that each member planet has a home fleet of ships. These are the ships desiged by and ran by that species. Earth surrendered is fleet into Starfleet with various docks and ship yard scatted around federation space. Cargo runs would be handled each member planets home fleet and other cargo vessels designed by starfleet. During the Dominon war these fleets and cargo runs were reduced and handled by heavily armed starfleet vessels. The federation vessels were really streched and Betazed home fleet were no match for them. When the UFP was formed Cargo was left up to each planets home fleet while Starfleet could begin catching up
 
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