Why is the new film doing so terribly outside the US..???

[Therin of Andor]

The movie was entertaining but certainly not flawless, you can nitpick most movies to death if you really tried to.

I found TMP, ST II, ST III, ST IV, ST VI, GEN, FC and INS to be "entertaining but certainly not flawless", too.

ST V was over-indulgent, and NEM was disappointing in many ways, but I certainly didn't begrudge paying to see either them on the big screen - at least twice. ST V was hilarious, even when it wasn't supposed to be.

 

[Minuialeth]

Question: does Nero address Pike using "tu" or "vous"? He calls Pike "Christopher" in his introduction, which is almost jarringly informal.

You know what? I have no idea
I seem to remember he uses "tu".

(For that matter, when, if ever, do Kirk and Spock switch from "vous" to "tu" in addressing each other?)

In TOS or any other ST movie, Spock and Kirk have always used "vous" adressing each other.
Spock uses "vous" for his mother and father. As for Uhura, I'm not sure if there's an instance in the movie where he uses "you" to adress her instead of "Lieutenant Uhura" or "Lieutenant".
Uhura uses "tu" when they are alone in the turbolift but I can't remember for the transporter room.

 

[M'Sharak]

I have done no such thing.

Huh?

http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=3039442&postcount=213

I think it's about time we moved on from this whole line of conversation, as it seems to be at an impasse. Let's return to the original topic.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Let's return to the original topic.

Certainly. The title of the thread is obviously not correct, since the film has done beyond expectations. The audience ratios are not all that different to previous ST releases. So the real question would be "Why have ST movies always appealed more to Americans than the rest of the world?"

 

[Elysion]

Star Trek always had American sensitivities and values of openness that are very much alien to foreign people and to their culture. I could see why. I come from Iran, although I've been raised here in Toronto and consider myself a Canadian, but from where I come from they don't give much credence to Star Trek or to anything westernised for that matter. Someone with a patriarch mentality will not understand the liberal values that Star Trek preaches, and if they do, they'll much rather disagree with it because it simply doesn’t conform to their way of thinking.

 

[Stardate]

It wouldn't be a bad idea for Abrams to get a foreign screenwriter to help Orci and Kurtzman with sequel. Someone with Science fiction as their forte. Just wondering hasn't all screenwriters and directors with Trek films been Americans?.

 

[rbnn]

Question: does Nero address Pike using "tu" or "vous"? He calls Pike "Christopher" in his introduction, which is almost jarringly informal.

You know what? I have no idea
I seem to remember he uses "tu".

But wouldn't "tu" be viewed as extremely rude in that situation?

In the English, both Ayel and Nero are superficially polite but in a way that makes their contempt for Robeau and Pike completely clear. Ayel with his "Refusal would be unwise" and Nero with his calling Pike "Christopher." It seems to me that if Nero actually did call Pike "tu" initially at least that this would be too clearly impolite. I know German better than French, and in German, for Nero to have called Pike "du" instead of "Sie" would have been considered extremely and openly insulting.

I would have thought perhaps Nero started out with "Vous" but then perhaps somewhere in the interrogation scene switching over to "tu".

I'll bet Spock Prime uses "tu" when he first sees Spock though. That's about the clearest case for "tu" imaginable: your own self a century younger.

 

[Jeri]

In the novelization, Nero says he has nothing at all against humans, including Pike.

He regrets that the Federation decided to put its headquarters on Earth, because he has no need or reason to destroy humans' home planet.

When Nero calls Pike by his first name, he is not being facetious. He only hates Vulcans and wants to create a galaxy free of them and the Federation of Planets.

 

[ria 75]

Question: does Nero address Pike using "tu" or "vous"? He calls Pike "Christopher" in his introduction, which is almost jarringly informal.

You know what? I have no idea
I seem to remember he uses "tu".

(For that matter, when, if ever, do Kirk and Spock switch from "vous" to "tu" in addressing each other?)

In TOS or any other ST movie, Spock and Kirk have always used "vous" adressing each other.
Spock uses "vous" for his mother and father. As for Uhura, I'm not sure if there's an instance in the movie where he uses "you" to adress her instead of "Lieutenant Uhura" or "Lieutenant".
Uhura uses "tu" when they are alone in the turbolift but I can't remember for the transporter room.

Is that from dubbing or subtitling?

Incidentally, did you notice how in all 7 years of Voyager, Tom and Harry call each other "vous" in the subtitles? Ridiculous. And never mind the translation of Enterprise. I always remove the subtitles, they infuriate me. As a bilingual trekkie professional subtitler.

Contente de faire ta connaissance.

 

[M'Sharak]

It wouldn't be a bad idea for Abrams to get a foreign screenwriter to help Orci and Kurtzman with sequel. Someone with Science fiction as their forte. Just wondering hasn't all screenwriters and directors with Trek films been Americans?.

Orci was born in Mexico City, father a Mexican citizen and his mother an immigrant from Cuba. He didn't come to the US (Texas - practically a foreign country itself) until he was 10, and thus could not have become an American citizen until some years later. He's been a Trek fan since he was introduced to it as a child by his Cuban uncle.

Shatner is Canadian by birth. (TFF)

Stuart Baird is British. (Nemesis)

Spiner is from Texas. (see above)

There may be other non-Americans, but I didn't feel like making a project out of it.

 

[Jeri]

That #$%@& Angels & Demons! How does it do this? Just what is so appealing to the international audience? It is Catholicism? European film locations?

"Angels & Demons," from Sony/Columbia, earned $6.5 million in North America during the weekend and its worldwide gross surpassed the $400 million mark, making it the No. 1 film in the world in 2009.

 

[chrisspringob]

Let's return to the original topic.

Certainly. The title of the thread is obviously not correct, since the film has done beyond expectations. The audience ratios are not all that different to previous ST releases. So the real question would be "Why have ST movies always appealed more to Americans than the rest of the world?"

My hypothesis (which I think I mentioned earlier in this thread, but it might have been in a different thread) is that the reason is because it's based on a 1960s American TV show, and there are a lot of countries (though far from all) where US-produced entertainment didn't have quite as much presence in their local TV market back in the 1960s/70s as it does today, and so such countries never developed the kind of fanbase that developed in the US and other countries where the show got a proper airing.

In short, I'm suggesting that maybe popular culture is more globalized today than it was 40 years ago, and so any franchise that's based on an American property that's that old is going to suffer internationally relative to something that's more recent (like, say, The Matrix or Pirates of the Caribbean).

Granted, you could use the same sort of logic to suggest that, say, Batman movies shouldn't be doing well overseas either, since that's based on a property that's 70 years old. But I don't think with superhero movies, there's the same kind of assumption that people make that you have to have a familiarity with what the franchise produced decades ago in order to follow what's going on in the most recently produced movies.

[This hypothesis is pure conjecture, and based on nothing more than looking at some box office stats, and talking to a few people from various parts of the world about their familiarity with different elements of American pop culture from various eras.]

 

[Roald]

Certainly. The title of the thread is obviously not correct, since the film has done beyond expectations.

I don't agree. Okay, so I may have overstated a bit with the word 'terribly', but to say that the film has performed beyond expectations OUTSIDE the US is equally overstated...

I still think a box office hit of this proportions should have a somewhat balanced domestic/inernational ratio. Trek isn't even close, with about 70% of its worldwide gross coming from the US.

And to emphasise it even more, both 'Wolverine' and 'Fast and Furious' did a lot better overseas that Trek, which I think is almost a crime.

 

[Minuialeth]

But wouldn't "tu" be viewed as extremely rude in that situation?

Well, in the French version it kinda went with the fact that Nero calls Pike "Christopher" instead of "Captain Pike". I've seen it as Nero wanting to show he has no respect or fear of the Federation and Starfleet and doesn't recognise its authority.

I would have thought perhaps Nero started out with "Vous" but then perhaps somewhere in the interrogation scene switching over to "tu".

Frankly I can't remember if there's a pronoun switch or not, 4 viewings aren't enough

Spock Prime does use "tu" when talking to nuSpock

Is that from dubbing or subtitling?

That's from dubbing, alas! I've been unable to see the movie in subtitled OV so far, no theater in my area shows it that way.
I can't say for Voyager, I've only seen the pilot. I'd have to buy the DVDs to see it and frankly, I'm a bit broken right now
I'm lazy so I always watch ST (and anything in English) with subtitles, but with the English ones. The French subtitles make me want to throw something at my TV too often

Anyway, I don't like the existence of "tu" and "vous" in French, I feel it complicates things. Sometimes you use "tu" by accident when you shouldn't have and it can lead to awkward situations
When you have enough practice in English, you're able to feel if the person talking to you is using "you" as "tu" or "vous" by her tone of voice.

I've always felt that throughout the years, Spock, Kirk and McCoy kept on using you as "vous", despite their friendship. I don't know, it seems to me that there's some big respect thing going one, no matter what.

 

[Therin of Andor]

to say that the film has performed beyond expectations OUTSIDE the US is equally overstated...

The ratios aren't that different to TMP and ST IV, and are better than the rest, IIRC.

I still think a box office hit of this proportions should have a somewhat balanced domestic/inernational ratio.

None of the other STs have been a balanced ratio.

Trek isn't even close, with about 70% of its worldwide gross coming from the US.

Which is what Paramount was predicting, IIRC.

both 'Wolverine' and 'Fast and Furious' did a lot better overseas that Trek, which I think is almost a crime.

Well, Hugh Jackman is huge here, and we'll follow him into a dud. "Fast and Furious" didn't get any of my money.

 

[Trilliam]

Well, Hugh Jackman is huge here, and we'll follow him into a dud. "Fast and Furious" didn't get any of my money.

Not in my house, Therin - The "X-Men" stories have never floated my boat. "F&F" didn't get any of my money, nor will T4.

 

[Roshi]

Question: does Nero address Pike using "tu" or "vous"? He calls Pike "Christopher" in his introduction, which is almost jarringly informal.

You know what? I have no idea
I seem to remember he uses "tu".

(For that matter, when, if ever, do Kirk and Spock switch from "vous" to "tu" in addressing each other?)

In TOS or any other ST movie, Spock and Kirk have always used "vous" adressing each other.
Spock uses "vous" for his mother and father. As for Uhura, I'm not sure if there's an instance in the movie where he uses "you" to adress her instead of "Lieutenant Uhura" or "Lieutenant".
Uhura uses "tu" when they are alone in the turbolift but I can't remember for the transporter room.

Is that from dubbing or subtitling?

Incidentally, did you notice how in all 7 years of Voyager, Tom and Harry call each other "vous" in the subtitles? Ridiculous. And never mind the translation of Enterprise. I always remove the subtitles, they infuriate me. As a bilingual trekkie professional subtitler.

Contente de faire ta connaissance.

So many French chicks in this board, so little time... Oh btw, I'll be in Paris next Friday. You know, Le Stade De France, AC/DC and stuff... wink, wink, nudge, nudge!


On topic:
Re the performances of Star Trek outside the US. I'm no expert but the US tend to see cinema as an industry, so movie-going has to reflect that aspect, hence people going to the theater on opening day. I mean, moviegoers *know* that a movie's success depends on the opening day and weekend box-office returns. Over here (in France at least) not so much. Of course attendance will matter. But the measure of success does not lie in instant returns.
Besides, you also have to take into account that Geekism/Nerdism is not part of the French culture (or dare I say European?). Even though there are geeks/nerds. But not as a recognized social group.

Don't worry, we shall overcome. One day.

 

[Deckerd]

Surely making any Trek movie is a risk, especially given how the last one fared. I think the financiers will be very well pleased with the performance of this one.

 

[Jax]

I think Paramount will prefer it to make more money domestic than oversea's because don't they make more $$$ of a U.S ticket than one aboard. If the film was doing terribly it would of made $50 million not over $100 so far with more to come (majorty of films over 365 days don't break $100 million...)

ST won't make much less than BB so a good start only TREK FANS could a way to nitpick the huge total we've made so far.

EDIT - Latest reports OVERSEA'S stand at = over $112 million.

WW TOTAL = $334.8 Million.

 

[Roald]

ST won't make much less than BB so a good start only TREK FANS could a way to nitpick the huge total we've made so far.

I wasn't aware I was nitpicking... And when 'Angels And Demons' came out, I've read ALL OVER the internet how it was doing far better overseas as compared to Trek, which was doing much better in the US. Certainly not just Trek fans...

And even IF I am nitpicking, it's only because I soooo desperately WANT Trek to be this HUGE success abroad... And to see it's a success but not a HUGE success internationally kinda bugs me.