Well, sexual liberation still doesn't permit conflict of interest any more than bribery would.
The Spock/Uhura Thing: Either Way, Someone Doesn't Look Good
- Thread starter Kirk1980
- Start date
How would you characterize the manner in which McCoy got Kirk aboard the Enterprise? Wasn't that a breach of conduct and regulations? Unless I missed it I don't recall anyone having serious problems with this very flagrant action.
Just an observation.
In any case, several others have quite ably argued against Ops pov. I just wanted to say that I'm dismayed by the tendency to paint Uhura as a sexually manipulative gold digger who didn't get her position through her own abilities. I agree that this is an extremely sexist viewpoint and is rife with assumptions, unsupportable accusations and inuendo. There seems to be some tendency to want to see their relationship as tawdry, forbidden and illicit. I just didn't see it that way at all..
In addition to the points already raised, I think that if Spock had been sexually active with Uhura at the time of the assignments, he'd never be as crass and caddish as to put her on another ship just like that. Especially without even discussing it with her first. That would be acting like a cowardly jerk, and that just isn't Spock. He doesn't see relationships as casual or disposable.
As to whether they became lovers at a later point, I think it's impossible to say. There just isn't much evidence. I know that when I first saw it it didn't occur to me that they were, and I'm still unconvinced either way. But obviously I have no problem with it.
p.s. I don't see breach of conduct in Spock assigning Uhura to the Ent. as stated previously, she was the best at what she did, so the assignment was justified- regardless of their personal feelings for each other. If questioned Spock could show hard EVIDENCE as to why the assignment was warranted and deserved. Her transcript is irrefutable. If she'd been lower or last in her class, then that would be a different situation.
So unless there is some rule that 2 people who are dating can't be on the same ship( which there isn't, obviously) then there shouldn't be an issue.
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The first time I saw the movie, I didn't know there was a sexual undertone to the conversation, so to me it was just because Uhura was the MOST QUALIFIED person for the job. That's why Spock conceded. Because he knew she was right. And Spock is logical, so he agreed with her reasoning.
Even knowing that they were in a relationship, doesn't change the fact that Uhura wasn't asking for special treatment because they're in a relationship. She is just being self-serving, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Who wouldn't want to be on the newest, best ship in the fleet?? As others have pointed out, she EARNED that position.
Even knowing that they were in a relationship, doesn't change the fact that Uhura wasn't asking for special treatment because they're in a relationship. She is just being self-serving, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Who wouldn't want to be on the newest, best ship in the fleet?? As others have pointed out, she EARNED that position.
Yeah, in the middle of a crisis, she was thinking about her career. Well-done
And fair points for stuff being in the NOVELIZATION but I'm commenting on what's on-screen. It wasn't at the time that Uhura's selfish little explosion got me thinking, it was in the proceeding scenes.
Was anything IN THE MOVIE AS SEEN IN THEATERS presented as showing that she was now a coworker? I didn't catch it. As far as I saw, she was still a cadet.
And fair points for stuff being in the NOVELIZATION but I'm commenting on what's on-screen. It wasn't at the time that Uhura's selfish little explosion got me thinking, it was in the proceeding scenes.
Was anything IN THE MOVIE AS SEEN IN THEATERS presented as showing that she was now a coworker? I didn't catch it. As far as I saw, she was still a cadet.
Well Spock did call her "lieutenant" right? Are cadets called "lieutenant" Isn't the whole point of a Cadet that that's their rank? *confused*
Yeah, in the middle of a crisis, she was thinking about her career. Well-done
No offense, but it's really a stretch to criticize someone for wanting the best posting they're qualified for and that they've earned, especially when her request to get aboard the Enterprise didn't delay anything.
That honestly sounds like the sort of criticism that's arguing from a pre-judged conclusion rather than naturally leading TOWARDS a conclusion.
Sci, you liked the movie and didn't find any problems with it. I found that logically, emotionally, structurally and in many other ways, it was lacking.
And yes, it is bad on her for getting pissy about her posting. Who knows, maybe Farragut was a sister ship. At a time where the Earth is supposedly threatened....
Just to be fair, I found it ridiculous that Shelby was worried about her career path during Best of Both Worlds, as well.
It was fun but...about once was enough for me.
Even just breaking it down has led me to these conclusions. And I reached this thought about a week after viewing it. So I somewhat doubt it was preconceived. Unless you know my subconscious now
And yes, it is bad on her for getting pissy about her posting. Who knows, maybe Farragut was a sister ship. At a time where the Earth is supposedly threatened....
Just to be fair, I found it ridiculous that Shelby was worried about her career path during Best of Both Worlds, as well.
It was fun but...about once was enough for me.
Even just breaking it down has led me to these conclusions. And I reached this thought about a week after viewing it. So I somewhat doubt it was preconceived. Unless you know my subconscious now
I'm willing to forgive almost anything when presented with the prospect of seeing how Spock behaves on a date. How are his chat-up lines? Would he dance? Does 'having a coffee' mean the same thing in Vulcan society? Would he use the raised eyebrow thing to Roger Moore As Bond effect?
And for all we know it was a lowly tug that didn't need anything more than a mechanical universal translator.
I don't see a problem with someone standing up for herself when she's been treated unfairly. She didn't delay anything. Nothing happened that wouldn't have happened if she hadn't spoke up, except that the Enterprise had the level of competency it needed to deal with the Romulan language. Which shows that having the right person go to a giving posting benefits the fleet as well as the individual.
Honestly, your reasons for disliking this scene do look pretty flimsy. If we don't have a problem with McCoy smuggling Kirk aboard with a fake diagnosis, we certainly wont have a problem with Uhura taking up her grievance with the guy in charge, as seems absolutely proper to me.
Yes.
Well, they were sneaky about it, and afterward there was no time for anyone to worry about it.
Yeah, in the middle of a crisis, she was thinking about her career. Well-done
And fair points for stuff being in the NOVELIZATION but I'm commenting on what's on-screen. It wasn't at the time that Uhura's selfish little explosion got me thinking, it was in the proceeding scenes.
Was anything IN THE MOVIE AS SEEN IN THEATERS presented as showing that she was now a coworker? I didn't catch it. As far as I saw, she was still a cadet.
For the umpteenth time, go to the Official Movie Website, look up the Dossiers, and read them. Uhura was not Spock's student at the time of the ship assignments. She was his teacher's aide, and FORMER student. They were coworkers and he was her boss.
And yes, they had been dating each other as well. Apparently the fact that they are now working side by side doesn't hurt them either, check out the next to the last scene in the movie too.
I agree with Shimmering too. Why the complaints about this breach of protocol when McCoy did even worse by abusing his position as Senior Med Staff to sneak Jim aboard.
Damn, at least Spock didn't inject Uhura with something that she had a near deathly reaction to so she could be Enterprised.
The military's fraternization policies vary, but since Trek has been most closely linked to naval traditions, here's what the U.S. Navy says. I put the most pertanent part in this case in bold face:
Prohibited Relationships:
a. Personal relationships between officer and enlisted members that are unduly familiar and that do not respect differences in grade or rank are prohibited. Such relationships are prejudicial to good order and discipline and violate long-standing traditions of the Naval service.
b. Personal relationships between chief petty officers (E-7 to E-9) and junior personnel (E-l to E-6), who are assigned to the same command, that are unduly familiar and that do not respect differences in grade or rank are prohibited. Likewise, personal relationships that are unduly familiar between staff/instructor and student personnel within Navy training commands, and between recruiters and recruits/applicants that do not respect differences in grade, rank, or the staff/student relationship are prohibited. Such relationships are prejudicial to good order and discipline, and violate long-standing traditions of the Naval service.
Now, one could argue that by the 23rd century, it's possible the Academy had adopted a less restrictive policy. Perhaps one more like colleges and universities, today.
Universities tend to say the relationship has to be sexual for "policies" to kick in. Such relationships are not prohibited per se, but are strongly discouraged. It's often made clear that all liability for damages that may occur from being in such a relationship fall onto the instructor.
When potential conflicts of interest arise, it is up to the instructor to ask to be removed from the area of conflict (having the student in a class would be an example). If the potential conflict can't be avoided, it is up to the instructor and student to make their relationship known. But, making it an open relationship doesn't protect the instructor from any liabilities that may occur as a result of the relationship (charges of favoritism, cheating, harrassment if the relationship goes bad, or whatever). It just puts everything in the open for examination.
Following the navy's protocols, it seems Spock and Uhura should not have had any type of relationship at all, sexual or otherwise. Spock was her instructor and even after that a superior officer. Fraternization. Pure and simple.
Following what some universities say, if their relationship was at least known to everyone, he could not be punished just for having the relationship.
But, having assigned her to the Farragut to avoid looking like he was playing favorites is exactly why these kinds of relationships are discouraged. He was essentially not giving her what she deserved in order to protect himself. Had he refused to assign her to the Enterprise, she could've acted on it and he would've been disciplined. It wouldn't have been pretty.
Prohibited Relationships:
a. Personal relationships between officer and enlisted members that are unduly familiar and that do not respect differences in grade or rank are prohibited. Such relationships are prejudicial to good order and discipline and violate long-standing traditions of the Naval service.
b. Personal relationships between chief petty officers (E-7 to E-9) and junior personnel (E-l to E-6), who are assigned to the same command, that are unduly familiar and that do not respect differences in grade or rank are prohibited. Likewise, personal relationships that are unduly familiar between staff/instructor and student personnel within Navy training commands, and between recruiters and recruits/applicants that do not respect differences in grade, rank, or the staff/student relationship are prohibited. Such relationships are prejudicial to good order and discipline, and violate long-standing traditions of the Naval service.
Now, one could argue that by the 23rd century, it's possible the Academy had adopted a less restrictive policy. Perhaps one more like colleges and universities, today.
Universities tend to say the relationship has to be sexual for "policies" to kick in. Such relationships are not prohibited per se, but are strongly discouraged. It's often made clear that all liability for damages that may occur from being in such a relationship fall onto the instructor.
When potential conflicts of interest arise, it is up to the instructor to ask to be removed from the area of conflict (having the student in a class would be an example). If the potential conflict can't be avoided, it is up to the instructor and student to make their relationship known. But, making it an open relationship doesn't protect the instructor from any liabilities that may occur as a result of the relationship (charges of favoritism, cheating, harrassment if the relationship goes bad, or whatever). It just puts everything in the open for examination.
Following the navy's protocols, it seems Spock and Uhura should not have had any type of relationship at all, sexual or otherwise. Spock was her instructor and even after that a superior officer. Fraternization. Pure and simple.
Following what some universities say, if their relationship was at least known to everyone, he could not be punished just for having the relationship.
But, having assigned her to the Farragut to avoid looking like he was playing favorites is exactly why these kinds of relationships are discouraged. He was essentially not giving her what she deserved in order to protect himself. Had he refused to assign her to the Enterprise, she could've acted on it and he would've been disciplined. It wouldn't have been pretty.
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And yet they worked it out without any of that happening.
Spock comes out of this film looking less-than-admirable on more than a few occasions. If it wasn't for the presence of his future counterpart (a good contrast, I think), we would have had less confidence in Spock throughout the film. But that also means there's a lot of room for him to grow in the sequel.
Spock comes out of this film looking less-than-admirable on more than a few occasions. If it wasn't for the presence of his future counterpart (a good contrast, I think), we would have had less confidence in Spock throughout the film. But that also means there's a lot of room for him to grow in the sequel.
Yeah, in the middle of a crisis, she was thinking about her career. Well-done
And fair points for stuff being in the NOVELIZATION but I'm commenting on what's on-screen. It wasn't at the time that Uhura's selfish little explosion got me thinking, it was in the proceeding scenes.
Was anything IN THE MOVIE AS SEEN IN THEATERS presented as showing that she was now a coworker? I didn't catch it. As far as I saw, she was still a cadet.
Was there anything in the movie that indicated that she was currently his student? No, there was not, but it seems that a lot of people have conveniently jumped to that conclusion in order to paint her as some sort of slut. Spock over compensated by posting her on the Farragut to avoid the appearance of favoritism (suggesting that there was some knowledge of their relationship). But he should have posted her based on qualifications. She simply pointed that out, asserting herself far more than TOS Uhura was ever permitted to do.
And, as others have pointed out, Starfleet is not strictly speaking a military organization, and there have been numerous examples of fraternization between officers, even superiors and subordinates, in other Trek. Quote navy regulations all you want. He called her Lieutenant.
Whatever you think of the movie (I loved it), I think it's safe to say that it portrayed Starfleet as drastically different from any sort of military organization we have today. There have been a lot of different takes on how much Starfleet should be patterned after the navy, but this version was perhaps the farthest removed we've seen.
For that reason, we really don't have much to go on to evaluate it-- things were left quite vague, perhaps for that very reason.
For that reason, we really don't have much to go on to evaluate it-- things were left quite vague, perhaps for that very reason.
"yes" That's all you have to say about it? What seems clear to me is that some are holding Uhura and Uhura/Spock to a different standard than Kirk/McCoy. I assume this is because one relationship or action leads to a plot they want to see and the other doesn't. Plain and simple. If you want to argue about characters following regulations or not, it should at least be done evenly across the board. BTW, restating that I don't feel that Spock/Uhura did anything wrong. Uhura had earned the posting based on her merits. She was top of her class and that can't be taken away from her.
"Well, they were sneaky about it, and afterward there was no time for anyone to worry about it."
Come now, I was talking about board discussion.
I don't recall anyone but Spock worrying about whether Uhura should be aboard the Enterprise, and he quickly changed his mind about the situation.
Unfortunately, when facts get in the way of an argument, conviction or belief system, they can always be disregarded. This bit of info may well need to be continually repeated.
Anyway, "logically" I have to assume that those who feel Uhura should have been posted on the Farragut are saying that they want Uhura written out of Star Trek, since that ship was destroyed.
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I don't see any problem with Uhura confidently presenting her case to the person who, basicly, misassigned her. If she's the best at what she does, which she and Spock both seemed to agree on, then she should have gotten her choice of assignment.
I don't know when they started their relationship, btw, and I honestly don't care. I felt like in this instance and throughout the movie they behaved pretty professionally, and since there's no proof that they were having an affair while in a student/teacher relationship, I'm not going to get upset about what I saw onscreen.
I don't know when they started their relationship, btw, and I honestly don't care. I felt like in this instance and throughout the movie they behaved pretty professionally, and since there's no proof that they were having an affair while in a student/teacher relationship, I'm not going to get upset about what I saw onscreen.
Yeah, in the middle of a crisis, she was thinking about her career. Well-done
And fair points for stuff being in the NOVELIZATION but I'm commenting on what's on-screen. It wasn't at the time that Uhura's selfish little explosion got me thinking, it was in the proceeding scenes.
Was anything IN THE MOVIE AS SEEN IN THEATERS presented as showing that she was now a coworker? I didn't catch it. As far as I saw, she was still a cadet.
Was there anything in the movie that indicated that she was currently his student? No, there was not, but it seems that a lot of people have conveniently jumped to that conclusion in order to paint her as some sort of slut. Spock over compensated by posting her on the Farragut to avoid the appearance of favoritism (suggesting that there was some knowledge of their relationship). But he should have posted her based on qualifications. She simply pointed that out, asserting herself far more than TOS Uhura was ever permitted to do.
And, as others have pointed out, Starfleet is not strictly speaking a military organization, and there have been numerous examples of fraternization between officers, even superiors and subordinates, in other Trek. Quote navy regulations all you want. He called her Lieutenant.
We're reading too much into this. Who know? Maybe they were just friends. We're also assuming policies that may be entirely different by then. Though there would still have to be some ethical guidelines about fraternizing just to maintain a level of institutional integrity. That said --
Two officers can fraternize, I think. But she couldn't have been a lieutenant for long, so their relationship had to begin before she became an officer, even if it was after she was his student. Regardless of his emotional deportment, this Spock came across as a stickler for order and regulations. Spit and polish. And yet he was dating a cadet while he was an officer? So, let's just say the policy is different then compared to now. More liberal. Rationalization is a great thing.
it all comes down to the simple fact that most men (I say MOST and I am not pointing fingers) will label an assertive woman as either a b***h or a s**t.
and it's no different with male Trekkies.
No. What she did was right. Very right. What Spock did was wrong. Very wrong. Uhura should've confronted him about it, and if she didn't get satisfaction, she should've gone to his superior officer.
This is why there has to be at least some kind of policy at the Academy regarding fraternization. Uhura needs due process. Spock let his feelings get in the way based solely on a personal relationship with her. It would be as if a teaching assistant gave a lower grade to his girlfriend than she deserved because he feared a charge of favoritism for giving her the higher grade. And, it's why such relationships are problematic and discouraged. It's just a good thing for Spock that Uhura was so persuasive. It would've been hard for Spock to stand before his superiors and explain why he assigned Uhura to the Farragut.
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