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Spock: Why no character development?

Because it was primarily an action vehicle with an occasional character moment throw in for all of 22.7 seconds before action and battles resume.

If there was one real issue is that the film glossed over the fallout and only gave it the most abbreviated attention possible in order to not be accused of not acknowledging it at all.
 
Frankly, I thought he came around full circle. He learned to live with his dual heritage. He learned to be less of a prick and to use his logic in a far less cold-blooded way (the way we're used to in TOS). He was given a major motivation to join Kirk and he succeeded. He was able to come to terms with his father. He was able to see that sometimes logic and emotion can go hand in hand. He was able to use emotion to find fulfillment. He learned misplaced vindication is not the answer. He was able to get past his ego and self-anger for the greater good. And all this stemming from being a racial outcast.
 
Before a character can change, you have to have a character.

That's exactly it. This movie put familiar characters in place, which some key changes, for the purpose of giving subsequent movies something to do.

Here's what I think the master plan is for character arcs in the movies, assuming these writers are thinking ahead and I think they are:

Kirk - They've made big changes to him because they want the chance to give him a strong arc. The original concept of Kirk - the studious, serious, dedicated cadet - would be a snooze compared with wild-card Kirk learning to tame himself into a leader, and seeing the others (particularly Spock and McCoy) contribute to this process.

Aspects of mature Kirk that we didn't see much of this time around - the guy who cares intently about his crew, is secure enough to be vulnerable, and also the smart, calculated guy who stops and thinks things through strategically before acting - will most likely start to emerge in the next movie. We got a little snippet of Compassionate Kirk at the end there, which I took as foreshadowing.

Spock - Reconciling his emotional and logical selves will be his arc. To amp up the conflict, the writers destroyed Vulcan and threw Spock together with the one female character in all of Trek who they can't get rid of via the usual expedient of death or break-up. Even if Spock and Uhura break up, she's still going to be around so the emotional issues will remain. If they just wanted a disposable romance for Spock, they could have invented a female character for the movie. The fact that they chose Uhura tells me that this is part of some long-term plan.

We didn't see any progress on this arc in this movie because this movie was all about amping the conflict. Now that elements are introduced to make emotional reconciliation even harder for Spock, they can start telling how he overcomes even these obstacles. No doubt the next time Spock encounters Romulans, there will be issues. Something will happen with Uhura - maybe she's in danger, maybe there's a rival (not Kirk please God), I don't know, but another shoe is going to drop.

The rest of the characters won't get major arcs - there wouldn't be time anyway, unless they somehow get this story back on TV with these characters and actors. But since they've strikingly changed Uhura, they need to devote some time to her development. The others can just be themselves.
 
" That's spock's journey to find his identity wasn't fufilled until he melded with Picard to get Sarek's thoughts.

This Spock has peace with his inner human... and inner romulan (insofar as having raging emotions uncontrolled). His father admits pride in his interracial nature and encourages him in it. Spock the older keeps him from reverting to his full vulcan self. "

I agree. The new Spock is now accepting and a peace with himself. Something that didn't start happening to Spock Prime (what an awful way to refer to such a person) until the events in TMP.
 
Well, that's the difference between movies and TV. Today, you can have character development in a TV show that slowly and elegantly unfolds. That's not the case in movies, especially when you don't know for sure there will be more than one. The way I see it, owing to yet unspecified alterations in the timeline, grownup Spock in the film had already become a bit more human than Spock was in TOS. Otherwise, I don't think he would be developing a romantic relationship with someone. Then, the traumatic events involving his mother and Vulcan gave him the push he needed to accept the integration that was already in process. But, I agree that the integration is not complete. He's not Spock Prime yet.

Ooo! Ooo! I know what happened! The filmmakers actually thought about what might happen to a very curious, observant, and intelligent alien individual who spent four-plus years living, working, and learning alongside humans at a majority-human Science!-and-badassery magnet-school like Starfleet Academy!

Here's a hint: it wouldn't involve that individual remaining mostly clueless about human habits and customs or making constant value judgments about how "illogical" they are years into his career alongside humans. :lol:

That was one of those things that always bugged me about Spock's characterization in TOS...
I agree. But I interpreted it differently, I never thought he was really clueless about human behaviour, but that he was intentionally and stubbornly insisting on his Vulcanity and trying to deny his humanity so much, somewhat as an overcompensation, somewhat as a reaction to being perceived as different, an 'other' by humans. He must have had many opportunities to face prejudice and racial slurs - even in Starfleet - and he reacted to it by insults of his own and judging humans as 'illogical'.

I saw him as similar to many diaspora people in real life, who tend to become very nationalistic only after living for some time abroad, even if they never had been when they were still living in their own country (or - even more ironically - if they never felt that happy or accepted 'back home' when they were still living there). The more time they spent with people from a different culture, the more they resort to their own, and the more they insist on their pride in their background and their home country - not so much from nostalgia, more so as a proud reaction to feeling as an outsider. Ironically, the majority of these people never actually try to return to their home country, and they most probably don't even want to, much as they like to talk about how great it is.

Still... TOS made Spock very complex, but they never developed him, because the characters had to undergo the reset button, and this bugged me, too. He had to start growing and learning to accept himself as he is - something they only started in the movies. I agree that Picard/Sarek mind meld was the crucial moment. Spock Prime in this movie is the end result of that development.

Bottom line - Spock had a lot of development in this movie, but this is not all there is to it, because character development has to be seen throughout the show and all the movies. This movie completed the potrayal of Spock but showing two very different versions of the same character: young Spock, angstier, angrier and having more problems with self-control than TOS Spock, and, on the other hand, old Spock, who has finally resolved all those issues that used to trouble him, and who is calm, warm and serene the way he never was before.



The only quibble I had, as I've said a thousand times now, is that if Spock had been the one suggesting to Kirk that they offer rescue to Nero, and sited the diplomatic implications of doing it, it would've been some stunning growth in his character. Now, if Nero refused and they destroyed him, sobeit.
As it is, as someone posted a long time back, Quinto came as close to being Sylar as he had at any time in the movie. (And, I find it interesting that Kirk and Spock were bathed in that devilish red light when they had the conversation.)

As I think of it, what may be going through Spock's mind at that time is the conversation he had with his father on the transporter pad. Spock acted on a feeling. The problem is, we can't have both Kirk and Spock being impulsive.
Why do you see that as impulsive? Spock's stance was, IMO, the logical one. You are facing a crazy maniac bent on revenge, who has already desroyed a planet and killed 6 billion people, and who is trying to destroy another planet and commit another genocide. He is well-armed and very dangerous. You have the chance to blow him up and save the galaxy... or, on the other hand, you can play it nice and offer him mercy, which doesn't really have benefits other than perhaps making you look like a lovely person, but could present a risk of the aforementioned madman and war criminal or his crew tricking you or attacking you. What is the logical thing to do?
Spock - Reconciling his emotional and logical selves will be his arc. To amp up the conflict, the writers destroyed Vulcan and threw Spock together with the one female character in all of Trek who they can't get rid of via the usual expedient of death or break-up. Even if Spock and Uhura break up, she's still going to be around so the emotional issues will remain. If they just wanted a disposable romance for Spock, they could have invented a female character for the movie. The fact that they chose Uhura tells me that this is part of some long-term plan.

We didn't see any progress on this arc in this movie because this movie was all about amping the conflict. Now that elements are introduced to make emotional reconciliation even harder for Spock, they can start telling how he overcomes even these obstacles. No doubt the next time Spock encounters Romulans, there will be issues. Something will happen with Uhura - maybe she's in danger, maybe there's a rival (not Kirk please God), I don't know, but another shoe is going to drop.

The rest of the characters won't get major arcs - there wouldn't be time anyway, unless they somehow get this story back on TV with these characters and actors. But since they've strikingly changed Uhura, they need to devote some time to her development. The others can just be themselves.
I am happy that there was no disposable love interest - I am so fed up with that plot device...

I don't understand why people say that they've strikingly changed Uhura? How is she changed?
 
well, for one thing, can you imagine this Uhura saying "Captain, I'm frightened!"?

I say it's a bit of a change... for the better.
 
Don't be too hard on her... she wasn't the only scaredy-cat in TOS...

'Wrong, Admiral... there is one casualty - my wits. As in SCARED OUT OF, SIR.'

:)
 
well, for one thing, can you imagine this Uhura saying "Captain, I'm frightened!"?

I say it's a bit of a change... for the better.

But that was a matter of inconsistent writing for Uhura in TOS, rather than her character being written in a certain way and then 'changed' for the movie. In other episodes like The Naked Time or Mirror Mirror, she was tough, no-nonsense, and had no problems with getting physical and fighting when needed. I hated it when they made her look like a frightened little kitten so Kirk would be the big brave man. :rolleyes: People can't agree how similar or different this Uhura is different from TOS Uhura, because,as I've noticed, they have different ideas what TOS Uhura was like. I think this Uhura takes the best from TOS Uhura and developes it, ie. IMO the character is faithful to TOS Uhura when she got lines and when she was at least somewhat well-written.
 
well, for one thing, can you imagine this Uhura saying "Captain, I'm frightened!"?

I say it's a bit of a change... for the better.

But that was a matter of inconsistent writing for Uhura in TOS, rather than her character being written in a certain way and then 'changed' for the movie. In other episodes like The Naked Time or Mirror Mirror, she was tough, no-nonsense, and had no problems with getting physical and fighting when needed. I hated it when they made her look like a frightened little kitten so Kirk would be the big brave man. :rolleyes: People can't agree how similar or different this Uhura is different from TOS Uhura, because,as I've noticed, they have different ideas what TOS Uhura was like. I think this Uhura takes the best from TOS Uhura and developes it, ie. IMO the character is faithful to TOS Uhura when she got lines and when she was at least somewhat well-written.

Yes, this is the Uhura who said, "Sorry, neither," my favorite line from "Naked Time," when Sulu calls her a "fair maiden."
 
well, for one thing, can you imagine this Uhura saying "Captain, I'm frightened!"?

I say it's a bit of a change... for the better.

But that was a matter of inconsistent writing for Uhura in TOS, rather than her character being written in a certain way and then 'changed' for the movie. In other episodes like The Naked Time or Mirror Mirror, she was tough, no-nonsense, and had no problems with getting physical and fighting when needed. I hated it when they made her look like a frightened little kitten so Kirk would be the big brave man. :rolleyes: People can't agree how similar or different this Uhura is different from TOS Uhura, because,as I've noticed, they have different ideas what TOS Uhura was like. I think this Uhura takes the best from TOS Uhura and developes it, ie. IMO the character is faithful to TOS Uhura when she got lines and when she was at least somewhat well-written.

agreed.
 
People can't agree how similar or different this Uhura is different from TOS Uhura, because,as I've noticed, they have different ideas what TOS Uhura was like.
I'm seeing the same thing happening with the other characters, to one extent or another. It's surprising to read the wide range of opinions about what Scotty was really supposed to have been like, for example; it's almost as if there were several people named Scotty, all very different from each other in ways having nothing to do with how they combed their hair.
 
Ironically I felt that a complaint put against TNG, that the human way was promoted as better than those of the aliens (who themselves often reflected exaggerated elements of humanity), was seen here (Spock coming to accept his anger as a valid feeling), only here the human way was more contemporary, a bit contrary to the Roddenberry idea that we've got a lot of room to improve.
 
I thought all of the major moments of Spock as we knew him were presented: He was picked on as a boy, He denied his acceptance to the Vulcan Academy, he was estranged from his parents (assumably from what we understand from the events of 'Journey to Babel')

And then the destruction of Vulcan, the death of his mother, and reuniting with his father that effectively changes his path from a confused Vulcan to a more accepting, feeling individual. This is a different Spock now. And it's more in line with who Spock Prime ultimately became after a much longer journey.

The sky's the limit now with this character.
 
The character arcs of both Spock and Kirk were one of the key aspects of the movie. I am at a loss as to how anyone could miss this.

Spock is initially extremely arrogant, self-centered, and brittle. He tries to suppress his human aspects entirely. This is clearly shown in his response to the Kobayashi Maru, which was an overreaction; by his air of self-centeredness, when going up the turbolift Enterprise first scene; by his reaction to Kirk's information about the lightning storm.

Spock is humbled and humanized by three key events: the loss of Vulcan (and Amanda); his loss of control on the bridge; Sarek's telling him why he married Amanda.

The new Spock is much gentler to Kirk, but more effective, shown by his joke about "I would cite regulation but I know you would ignore it" line. His attempt to sacrifice himself like George Kirk did was the ultimate "morally praiseworthy" act that saved Earth.

Finally, at the end, he is more humble to Spock Prime, and when he enters the bridge in the last scene, and makes a joke about "personal references" you can see how much calmer and more mature he is than in the first scene.

So Spock goes through three phases: initially, too uptight, self-centered, arrogant; next, trying to work though his emotions and teaming up with Kirk; finally, resolving his childhood struggles and ready and confident to work with Kirk.

All this is portrayed not just by action and dialogue but by body language. The later Spock is calmer, less tense, than the earlier one; but also less brittle.
 
I agree. But I interpreted it differently, I never thought he was really clueless about human behaviour, but that he was intentionally and stubbornly insisting on his Vulcanity and trying to deny his humanity so much
I've always seen TOS Spock like this, too. He had to know about human behaviour and customs after living among humans for almost 2 decades but he kept on pretending to not understand some reactions. Someone as intelligent as Spock cannot remain that clueless. Especially someone that well versed into human history ;)
I've always thought that Kirk knew that because he was the only one to not be annoyed by Spock's phrases about humanity flaws. On the contrary, he was often amused by that because he knew Spock wasn't really thinking what he was saying.
McCoy eventually understood in the third season.
 
Ironically I felt that a complaint put against TNG, that the human way was promoted as better than those of the aliens (who themselves often reflected exaggerated elements of humanity), was seen here (Spock coming to accept his anger as a valid feeling), only here the human way was more contemporary, a bit contrary to the Roddenberry idea that we've got a lot of room to improve.
How is Spock coming to accept himself as he is "promoting the human way as better than those of the aliens"? :confused:

Unless you mean that accepting oneself for what one really is something intrinsically human, or "contemporary human way" and what's more, contrary to Roddenberry's ideas? Are you saying that it was Roddenberry's idea that we should hate part of out natures so much as to be in constant denial about it?
 
Not deny but be able to overcome feelings like rage and bitterness, also to be able to see things from a logical viewpoint (as Kirk suggested) rather than just a personal one.
 
" That's spock's journey to find his identity wasn't fufilled until he melded with Picard to get Sarek's thoughts.

This Spock has peace with his inner human... and inner romulan (insofar as having raging emotions uncontrolled). His father admits pride in his interracial nature and encourages him in it. Spock the older keeps him from reverting to his full vulcan self. "

I agree. The new Spock is now accepting and a peace with himself. Something that didn't start happening to Spock Prime (what an awful way to refer to such a person) until the events in TMP.


i guess i see prime spock's journey as being a little more complicated./
he actually gained peace with himself and had it taken away several times.

during the run of tos there is a change within spock as the series went on.
but then he lost that when jim accepted the promotion and bones left in anger because he believed kirk was making a mistake.

having these two balancing forces stripped from him supposedly was the basis for his seeking kolinahr .
but later he encounters and melds with vger and very possibly becomes even more at peace with himself then ever before.

frankly when we got to tng i was a little disappointed that we learn spock and sarek had been at odds with each other again.
they seemed to have found some type of understanding at the end of journey to babel.

as for new spock i agree with some others you very much see the character also grow through the film.
 
Not deny but be able to overcome feelings like rage and bitterness, also to be able to see things from a logical viewpoint (as Kirk suggested) rather than just a personal one.

So what is your point? That someone told him or that the movie suggested he should be angry and bitter and not able to see things from a logical viewpoint? :confused: That is a very weird interpretation.

If you are going to even start overcoming feelings liek rage and bitterness, you first need to deal with the fact that you have all these emotions, not maintain a cold and emotionless persona with occasional outbursts of almost murderous rage.
 
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