Spock: Why no character development?

[Cdr MacDuff]

I'm sure some people may disagree with me (again maybe not), but it seem to me there was no character development for the Spock character in this movie. He was as emotional in the beginning of the movie as he was in the end.

A movie is different than a TV series. Is that most good movies shows character which goes through events which changed them in the course of a movie. Its not extended over 7 years. Its better for drama. For example, a rebellious 'don't give a fuck about anything' character at the beginning of the movie, can become a hero trying to save the world in a selfish manner in the end (a bit like Kirk). OK this is an easy one and typical, but you get the idea.

For Spock in this movie, there's no character development at all. You insult him about his mother and he gets all emotional all along.

1- Vulcan bullies insult his mother. He fight them.
2- The Vulcan council (or something) insult his mother before his entrance in the institution. He reject the offer and goes to earth.
3- He puts Uhura on and off enterprise. One way or the other its illogical.
4- Kirk insult him about his mother. He assault him. Thus losing the captaincy of the ship.
5- Kirk offer Spock to save Nero. Spock rebuffed it. His lust for revenge over his mother's death is bigger.

I think, for example, this last scene could have been a great way to show some character growth for Spock. For example, he could have been the one asking Kirk to offer Nero some help for rescue. To which Kirk would have replied to him that this bastard just killed millions of Vulcans and his mother. Spock could have respond and explain that its more logical to save him; As its the cold and unemotional view point. But we didn't get any of that in this movie.

Its strange since all the world knows Spock is a Vulcan defined by his logic action. When he says: "its logical", we know we got the real Spock. But in this movie, he's acting like a typical human. A human with no character development. The fact that he's supposed to be a logical Vulcan doesn't factor in at almost any moment in the story. A missed opportunity.

 

[Trilliam]

I'm sure some people may disagree with me (again maybe not), but it seem to me there was no character development for the Spock character in this movie. He was as emotional in the beginning of the movie as he was in the end.

A movie is different than a TV series. Is that most good movies shows character which goes through events which changed them in the course of a movie. Its not extended over 7 years. Its better for drama. For example, a rebellious 'don't give a fuck about anything' character at the beginning of the movie, can become a hero trying to save the world in a selfish manner in the end (a bit like Kirk). OK this is an easy one and typical, but you get the idea.

For Spock in this movie, there's no character development at all. You insult him about his mother and he gets all emotional all along.

1- Vulcan bullies insult his mother. He fight them.
2- The Vulcan council (or something) insult his mother before his entrance in the institution. He reject the offer and goes to earth.
3- He puts Uhura on and off enterprise. One way or the other its illogical.
4- Kirk insult him about his mother. He assault him. Thus losing the captaincy of the ship.
5- Kirk offer Spock to save Nero. Spock rebuffed it. His lust for revenge over his mother's death is bigger.

I think, for example, this last scene could have been a great way to show some character growth for Spock. For example, he could have been the one asking Kirk to offer Nero some help for rescue. To which Kirk would have replied to him that this bastard just killed millions of Vulcans and his mother. Spock could have respond and explain that its more logical to save him; As its the cold and unemotional view point. But we didn't get any of that in this movie.

Its strange since all the world knows Spock is a Vulcan defined by his logic action. When he says: "its logical", we know we got the real Spock. But in this movie, he's acting like a typical human. A human with no character development. The fact that he's supposed to be a logical Vulcan doesn't factor in at almost any moment in the story. A missed opportunity.

How much character development do you expect from a movie that is dealing with young people? How old is Spock? Do Vulcans (or even part Vulcans) with their much longer lifespan, emotionally/psychologically develop at the same ages as humans? Or is Spock here, despite his chronological age in Earth years, still a (comparative) youth in terms of Vulcan psychological devlopment?

 

[nx1701g]

I was happy with what we got. They did put a lot into the Spock character.

 

[pookha]

one you are dealing with a period of time where spock is more emotional.
go look at the pilots and some of the early episodes.
but frankly i dont agree with some of your points.
the spock who walks away from the academy is far different from the boy who did a full on assualt when amanda was insulted.

he already had starfleet as an option and look consider his point of view.
even though i wonder if the insult from the acadmemy head was real or perhaps a test from spocks perspective it looked to be highly predjuical. something you dont want from a scientist.
it would have been different too if spock had not already been considering starfleet.

and really until the attack on vulcan spock is pretty much like he was in the examples i cited earlier,, except he isnt doing a big grin.


the stuff with uhura was because he didnt was to make it look like out right favortism and uhura pointed out why she had earned her spot on enterprise.

as for the attack on kirk...that was after the loss of vulcan and watching his mother die in front of him.
enough to rattle almost any vulcan.

 

[Cky]

...No? NO character development? You're either insane or you slept though the entire movie. The meare fact that Spock is one main character out of 8 to get proper screentime (I'm including Pike and Spock Prime in that number), I think they did a damn good job, since he had next to the most screentime of any character.

 

[Cdr MacDuff]

...No? NO character development? You're either insane or you slept though the entire movie. The meare fact that Spock is one main character out of 8 to get proper screentime (I'm including Pike and Spock Prime in that number), I think they did a damn good job, since he had next to the most screentime of any character.

I knew some people would say that. Please, give me some examples of character development for Spock.

 

[Sci]

Spock has character development -- it's development towards accepting his emotions rather than rejecting them.

 

[Cdr MacDuff]

Spock has character development -- it's development towards accepting his emotions rather than rejecting them.

When did he rejected them? When he punched those bullies or when he strangled Kirk?

 

[Sci]

Spock has character development -- it's development towards accepting his emotions rather than rejecting them.

When did he rejected them? When he punched those bullies or when he strangled Kirk?

He was raised to reject them. The film makes it very clear that both of those instances were significant deviations from his normal behavior -- emotional outbursts so powerful that he could not control them. You act as though those were deliberate choices to reject Vulcan logic; they were not.

 

[perigee]

A movie is different than a TV series. Is that most good movies shows character which goes through events which changed them in the course of a movie.

I dunno, MacDuff; you're painting with a wide brush. There are at least thirteen differently types of hammers in the world. A hammer is different from a screwdriver, but a joiner's mallet is different than a claw hammer.

Now, understand - I pretty much agree with you on this one. Spock didn't "develop" much - there was no character arc - unless you want to call going from abandoning Kirk on an Ice ball to calling him "Jim" in the space of a half hour "Development."

But, on the other hand, he was developed completely in this film.

This Spock - NuSpock - is not our old 50-year reliable version. All we saw - and most of what some hate - is all development. Before a character can change, you have to have a character. In this case, of course, not just one. You had seven characters that had to be rebuilt and bought into during two hours of action format. That's job one. Without that, you get no second chance, and no time for these newly developed versions of these characters to develop further.

Time - with all the hoo-ha going on around here in reference to time, nobody seems to be looking at their watch when it comes to the actual passing of celluloid past the bulb.

Considering that the film was a high budget attempt at reviving a moribund franchise, Paramount, whose fortunes have been failing lately, was not going to sanction some high-minded masterwork of character complexity. They wanted a hit. And, at the Very Very least, they would accept nothing less than a solid boxoffice. That means coming in at a length that wouldn't make Jean and Joe Moviegoer squirm uncomfortably in their seats, and at a pace that would zip them merrily along and have them leaving their ten bucks behind with a smile on their face. There's two limitations right there on what it will be possible to do with the film cans.

Beyond that, there was a very real need to update the characters, sell them as heroes to those contemporary folks in the seats, and make them want to come back for more. Keep in mind they didn't have the clean(er) slate that a franchise like, say "X-Men" had - if you breathe and live in America, you've probably seen enough Star Trek to have some expectations that would have to be changed and accepted. So there's another requisite crimped into your limitations.

You need crap blowing up, and lots of laser beams going "pit-oo! pit-oo!" - it's a space movie. Hell, it's TOSTrek. Lately in Trek, you had to destroy the whole Enterprise every time they turned down the theater lights. So budget a bunch of time for thrills.

That's a whole lot of necessities in a 2 hour film.

But, of course, all of this is still just apologist, when apologies are not necessary. NuSpock was more "developed" as a character in this film than he was over the first six hours of TOS. He was more fleshed out in motivations than Wolverine was in three X-Men films. Considering the time needed to flesh out the other two mains, the supporting cast, the requisite punchy-zappy-whooshy action, and developing unimportant characters like Ma and Pa Kirk and Pike, I'm not sure what more one could reasonably expect, or even ask for.

Will there ever be the kind of development you're looking for? Beats me - personally, I'm dubious we'll get some kind of cinematic "City on the Edge of Forever," even though I'd probably skip the second coming of Christ to sit in the theater to see it. But what we got this time out is, at least to my mind, far, far better than we could have reasonably expected.

 

[seniorsleuth]

The character did not develop all that much in the original series. Most of his development came from the movies. Spock Prime is very different from Spock in the series, who was subjected to the "reset button" at the end of every episode. You seem to be defining development as "becoming more logical." There are all kinds of development.

Yes, Spock lashes out to defend his mother as a child, and he lashes out again when Kirk taunts him. But this is only after he has just witnessed his mother and his entire planet turn to space dust. By the end of the film, he has willingly incorporated some of his human self into his overall personality so that it doesn't have to be cold logic most of the time, interrupted by out-of-control outbursts. He has become more integrated, more like Spock Prime. He's just gotten there a bit quicker. He will still struggle, but he is no longer bent on rejecting his human half outright.

 

[Dale]

I saw quite a bit of character development in Spock. Clearly, his mother was always a sore spot (I think they missed a trick in having young Spock point out to Sarek that the other youths had called him a traitor when the more henious crime - and what actually angered him, I believe - was their calling his mother a whore), and only became more so after her death. But mature Spock (Quinto) started off with constant anger and indignation just below the surface and by the end of the film had softened enough to place some trust in Jim Kirk (asking him to carry a message to Uhura) and even displayed the barest glimmer of Spockian humor is his response to Kirk's offer of and explanation for a show of mercy to Nero and crew.

Plus, all we saw were a bare couple of days in the life of this Spock, so his arc had, of necessity, to be subtle. There was progress there. It could be seen in his dealings with McCoy as well... the start of their comradeship.

I think expecting him to turn from angry young Spock into Leonard Nimoy's cool and collected, slightly wry Spock in 48 or fewer hours is the unrealistic expectation. And keep in mind, even Spock Prime wasn't always the man we came to know in TOS: "THE WOMEN!"

 

[Minuialeth]

Just the title of that thread made me go

perigee, I won't quote your whole post but you nailed it

I think they missed a trick in having young Spock point out to Sarek that the other youths had called him a traitor when the more henious crime - and what actually angered him, I believe - was their calling his mother a whore

The way I've interpreted the scene is that the insult to his mother was so odious and degrading that Spock didn't even want - or just couldn't - repeat it to his father so he chose the less grievous one.

And yes, he beats the hell out of the other kid, but it's after the bullies' 35th try to trigger an emotional reaction in him. I guess that up until that point, they had insulted Spock only and he could let it fly over his head. It took them 35 times to find his weak point: his mother.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

I'm sure some people may disagree with me...

Yep, totally.

 

[seniorsleuth]

I saw quite a bit of character development in Spock. Clearly, his mother was always a sore spot (I think they missed a trick in having young Spock point out to Sarek that the other youths had called him a traitor when the more henious crime - and what actually angered him, I believe - was their calling his mother a whore), and only became more so after her death. But mature Spock (Quinto) started off with constant anger and indignation just below the surface and by the end of the film had softened enough to place some trust in Jim Kirk (asking him to carry a message to Uhura) and even displayed the barest glimmer of Spockian humor is his response to Kirk's offer of and explanation for a show of mercy to Nero and crew.

Plus, all we saw were a bare couple of days in the life of this Spock, so his arc had, of necessity, to be subtle. There was progress there. It could be seen in his dealings with McCoy as well... the start of their comradeship.

I think expecting him to turn from angry young Spock into Leonard Nimoy's cool and collected, slightly wry Spock in 48 or fewer hours is the unrealistic expectation. And keep in mind, even Spock Prime wasn't always the man we came to know in TOS: "THE WOMEN!"

Well, that's the difference between movies and TV. Today, you can have character development in a TV show that slowly and elegantly unfolds. That's not the case in movies, especially when you don't know for sure there will be more than one. The way I see it, owing to yet unspecified alterations in the timeline, grownup Spock in the film had already become a bit more human than Spock was in TOS. Otherwise, I don't think he would be developing a romantic relationship with someone. Then, the traumatic events involving his mother and Vulcan gave him the push he needed to accept the integration that was already in process. But, I agree that the integration is not complete. He's not Spock Prime yet.

 

[theFirebottle]

Well, that's the difference between movies and TV. Today, you can have character development in a TV show that slowly and elegantly unfolds. That's not the case in movies, especially when you don't know for sure there will be more than one. The way I see it, owing to yet unspecified alterations in the timeline, grownup Spock in the film had already become a bit more human than Spock was in TOS. Otherwise, I don't think he would be developing a romantic relationship with someone. Then, the traumatic events involving his mother and Vulcan gave him the push he needed to accept the integration that was already in process. But, I agree that the integration is not complete. He's not Spock Prime yet.

Ooo! Ooo! I know what happened! The filmmakers actually thought about what might happen to a very curious, observant, and intelligent alien individual who spent four-plus years living, working, and learning alongside humans at a majority-human Science!-and-badassery magnet-school like Starfleet Academy!

Here's a hint: it wouldn't involve that individual remaining mostly clueless about human habits and customs or making constant value judgments about how "illogical" they are years into his career alongside humans.

That was one of those things that always bugged me about Spock's characterization in TOS...

 

[Stone_Cold_Sisko]

Sorry but I thought Spock's character development was just fine. In fact, there was more development here than in most of the TOS movies.

If anything, Kirk could have used some development. It seems like most of his maturation happened off-screen in between the "Three Years Later"

 

[SiorX]

I saw quite a bit of character development in Spock. Clearly, his mother was always a sore spot (I think they missed a trick in having young Spock point out to Sarek that the other youths had called him a traitor when the more henious crime - and what actually angered him, I believe - was their calling his mother a whore)

I read that scene a bit like Minuialeth does. It's part of Spock's character development from believing he has to choose between being human or vulcan (and that vulcan is the right choice) to accepting that he can be both. It's the slur against Amanda that really sets him off, but he can't bring that up with his father because he thinks his own anger at their anti-human woman bigotry is something of which to be ashamed. Young Spock internalised that. It's easier for him to pretend the traitor accusation against his Vulcan father was the real problem.

(I'm assuming that the bullies are using "whore" to attack Amanda's humanity on top of her gender, in the same way that bigots in RL will conflate sexist/racist/ and homophobic slurs. Presumably, a human woman is stigmatised for being excessively sexual, whether this is true or not, when vulcan bigots do their discriminating.)

The omission just struck me as too glaring. Even some of my friends who, bless their socks, want nothing more reflexive from movies than a long discussion about which was the coolest explosion picked up on it.

Or maybe I just choose to read it that way because the alternative - that the whore slur was just thrown in there unthinkingly and that Spock really percieves the attack as being against Sarek rubs me the wrong way.

 

[Franklin]

The only quibble I had, as I've said a thousand times now, is that if Spock had been the one suggesting to Kirk that they offer rescue to Nero, and sited the diplomatic implications of doing it, it would've been some stunning growth in his character. Now, if Nero refused and they destroyed him, sobeit.
As it is, as someone posted a long time back, Quinto came as close to being Sylar as he had at any time in the movie. (And, I find it interesting that Kirk and Spock were bathed in that devilish red light when they had the conversation.)

As I think of it, what may be going through Spock's mind at that time is the conversation he had with his father on the transporter pad. Spock acted on a feeling. The problem is, we can't have both Kirk and Spock being impulsive.

 

[the Sisko]

I disagree. I saw alot of character development... just towards a different character. TOS-TMP showed a Spock who, mindful of his father's lack of acceptance, tried doubly hard to be Vulcan. He was in an unloving marriage to a Vulcan, he went through Kolinar, despite serving on a mostly human ship, he tried his hardest to not show his human side. That's spock's journey to find his identity wasn't fufilled until he melded with Picard to get Sarek's thoughts.

This Spock has peace with his inner human... and inner romulan (insofar as having raging emotions uncontrolled). His father admits pride in his interracial nature and encourages him in it. Spock the older keeps him from reverting to his full vulcan self.

Hence, they destinies are changed by the war criminal known as Nero