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Trek XI Earth spacedock?

Another thing that always bothered me about FJ's design was that each "section" seemed to try to create the feeling of being on a planet in a sort of ferris wheel fashion, with compartmentalized fake ceilings and "buildings" emerging from the separation bulkheads. That just seems... wasteful.

I haven't looked at a TM in decades, but what you describe sounds a bit like the L5 colony stuff put forth by O'neill around that time. The COLONIES IN SPACE book (I think that is what it was called, Heppenheimer wrote it) had lots of these concepts illustrated, often by Don Dixon (the space artist who used to appear in STARLOG early on.)

The FJ design, if it was along these lines, was probably just good extrapolation from the then-current (and still viable, though nutrek probably doesn't know from the concept of extrapolating based on scientific projection) notions for space colonies.
 
Another thing that always bothered me about FJ's design was that each "section" seemed to try to create the feeling of being on a planet in a sort of ferris wheel fashion, with compartmentalized fake ceilings and "buildings" emerging from the separation bulkheads. That just seems... wasteful.

I haven't looked at a TM in decades, but what you describe sounds a bit like the L5 colony stuff put forth by O'neill around that time. The COLONIES IN SPACE book (I think that is what it was called, Heppenheimer wrote it) had lots of these concepts illustrated, often by Don Dixon (the space artist who used to appear in STARLOG early on.)

The FJ design, if it was along these lines, was probably just good extrapolation from the then-current (and still viable, though nutrek probably doesn't know from the concept of extrapolating based on scientific projection) notions for space colonies.
Yeah, that's pretty much what was going on. FJ's design really was built around the idea of using rotation for simulation of gravity as well, it seems... something that is normally not an issue in Treknology.

The "sky and landscape" thing, on the other hand... makes terrific sense, if you're talking about a deep-space station. I can hardly imagine what it would be like to live in a can in space for years at a time, but I suspect that the presence of someplace that would feel like "home" would be a major psychological need. And if you didn't have "magical holodecks" I don't know how else you'd address that need.

Ships, they visit worlds. Orbital stations... they give you ready access to worlds as well. But a deep-space station... I'm not sure how I could bear up under that situation. FJ addressed it by giving them a "fake planetary" environment. Which isn't really a bad idea, and I don't consider it "wasteful" as a result.
 
Another thing that always bothered me about FJ's design was that each "section" seemed to try to create the feeling of being on a planet in a sort of ferris wheel fashion, with compartmentalized fake ceilings and "buildings" emerging from the separation bulkheads. That just seems... wasteful.

I haven't looked at a TM in decades, but what you describe sounds a bit like the L5 colony stuff put forth by O'neill around that time. The COLONIES IN SPACE book (I think that is what it was called, Heppenheimer wrote it) had lots of these concepts illustrated, often by Don Dixon (the space artist who used to appear in STARLOG early on.)

The FJ design, if it was along these lines, was probably just good extrapolation from the then-current (and still viable, though nutrek probably doesn't know from the concept of extrapolating based on scientific projection) notions for space colonies.

It's not so much the concept that bothers me, as much as the orientation. You have this big flat circular ovoid, and for whatever reason the orientation was around the center so the outer edge was the "ground" and the center of the "wheel" was the highest point of the "sky." Then you have all of these bulkheads separating each section, with a short skyscraper built into them and all this fake sky above. Why all the fake sky?

That's the part that seemed like wasted space to me. If the orientation had been where one "face" of the circle was "up" and the other "down" I think it would have wasted less space while preserving the fake planet motif.
 
Okay. What I meant was that the station in question that everyone was suggesting the one from the movie resembled was not in Earth orbit. I meant "neutral" as in not in the space of any one member government. It certainly looks to me in FJ's TM that that particular station is not in Earth orbit.

Well, sure, but what's your point? Nobody's saying that the station in the movie is the exact same structure FJ drew, because it clearly isn't. Just that there's an evident design influence.


I Like F.J's space station concept, though I do NOT accept it as "Starfleet Headquarters." I don't mind it being one of a series of starbase "standard designs" out there, and don't mind one or more of these having a "starfleet headquarters" facility inside (in the same sense that there are multiple "headquarters" operations for the Navy, dependent on which fleet or operational group you're talking about). But there's simply no way to have a spaceborne facility be anywhere nearly as secure and self-sufficient as a planetbound one could be. There are advantages to being in space, but the sort of things you really want from a "headquarters..." not so much.

Well, I'm not so sure I agree that a planetary installation is automatically superior to a self-sufficient megastructure. Planets aren't really all that secure; they tend to have earthquakes and tsunamis and asteroid impacts and stuff like that, and it takes a lot of wasted energy to fight your way out of their gravity wells. Also, it's easy for an enemy to bombard you just by dropping rocks on you from orbit and turning your planet's own gravity into a WMD. It's always better to hold the high ground, and any installation on a planet surface is the low ground by an enormous margin.

A lot of modern science fiction portrays civilizations that have largely or entirely eschewed planetary living in favor of artificial megastructures. So it's hardly unprecedented for a core facility of a civilization to be space-based.




By the way, what is that in your avatar? It looks like the TMP dude "running" for his life before VGR cloud got him at the start of the movie..but is that the actual prop or something?

IIRC, that's a photo Andrew Probert took of the original filming miniature of the TMP astronaut. There was a pictorial of it on the Drex Files blog a few months back.


It's not so much the concept that bothers me, as much as the orientation. You have this big flat circular ovoid, and for whatever reason the orientation was around the center so the outer edge was the "ground" and the center of the "wheel" was the highest point of the "sky." Then you have all of these bulkheads separating each section, with a short skyscraper built into them and all this fake sky above. Why all the fake sky?

That's the part that seemed like wasted space to me. If the orientation had been where one "face" of the circle was "up" and the other "down" I think it would have wasted less space while preserving the fake planet motif.

The design is predicated on the use of rotational gravity rather than magic artificial gravity. A rotating habitat is only viable if its rotation rate is less than 1 RPM; otherwise the rotation can induce motion sickness, drowsiness, and other symptoms. But in order to have a slow rotation and still achieve 1g, you need a habitat with a large radius.

Although I don't think FJ's space station is quite big enough. The ground level seems to be roughly 700 meters from the center. Now, a = v^2/r, so v = SQRT(700 x 9.8) = 83 m/s for 1g. The circumference is 2 pi * 700 = 4398 m, which gives a period of about 53 seconds. That's just on the wrong side of 1 RPM. Although if the 1g level is meant to be at the outer edge of the station, then that might work. It'd mean a slightly lower gravity at the nominal ground level, but that's not a problem. So maybe it's just barely big enough.

Although then the spacedocks make no sense, because they're further out and therefore "below" the ground level. They'd feel a higher gravity. The text says that ships in the docks "float" in synchronous orbit, but that doesn't make any sense. Even if the interior were in vacuum, the Coriolis effect would still send them into the wall.
 
By the way, what is that in your avatar? It looks like the TMP dude "running" for his life before VGR cloud got him at the start of the movie..but is that the actual prop or something?

Rob

The other poster is right, it was on the drex site. It has a tremendous likeness to Shatner, downright eerie, except for the beard that was added years later.
 
I'm of a mind that the FJ station was a fine idea. Not great, mind you, but not really bad. It's fine. I don't accept it utilized centripetal force as a mode of simulating gravity, however. It seems to me that (in addition to the above mentioned starship docks not being 0-G if that were the case) the fact that the decks do not follow the curve of the outer rim would tend to argue against it. As the decks are flat from bay to bay (forming a hexagon in cross section) you would only feel a sense of "down" that agreed to the architecture in the middle area. Once you walked towards the next bay, you would feel like you were moving more and more "downhill" until you got the the next bay where it would feel like you were suddenly going up a steep hill which gradually leveled off as you approached the middle area. Therefore, I expect the whole vessel was subject to artificial gravity very much as all other ships and facilities are.

As for the bay design with their large "fake skies", I'm okay with that too. Having one huge volume would be a bad idea if there was a hull breech. The whole thing would depressurize and all would be lost. With six discrete segments, you have a good chance of sealing it off at only a few required exchange areas. Plus, having the six segments of beefy bracing would probably be necessary to maintaining such a large rigid structure. Would you really need such a high sky? I doubt it. You could preserve the effect with a lower ceiling, but I expect he height is a consequence of the overall proportions of the structure. Having the desired "surface area" would require a certain diameter. You would only be able to lower the ceiling level by putting more stuff in the central core area, but that would seem just as wasteful to me. And more expensive!

--Alex
 
As for the bay design with their large "fake skies", I'm okay with that too. Having one huge volume would be a bad idea if there was a hull breech. The whole thing would depressurize and all would be lost.

Well, yes and no. That's quite a large volume of air, so it would take a long time to leak out through a relatively small breach. And when the station's over a kilometer and a half in diameter, even a breach of several meters would be proportionately like a pinprick in a beach ball. So segmentation is a good idea, but on that large a scale, you could still get by without it so long as you have efficient repair systems and don't get a 70-meter hole blown in your hull.

Plus, having the six segments of beefy bracing would probably be necessary to maintaining such a large rigid structure.

Not really. In a habitat with weight produced by centripetal acceleration, we're dealing with a structure under tension, not compression. The dynamics are like those of a suspension bridge. Thick, beefy bracing is unnecessary; what you need are strong cables. Although you could get by without them; basically the tension of the spinning hull would provide its own rigidity and support, like Niven's Ringworld. Given material of sufficient strength, of course.

As for the suggestion that artificial gravity was used, that would be a pretty strange arrangement of vectors. I'm not sure what the dynamics would be like there. I think that FJ intended it to be rotating (given what he said about the ships in the dock being in "synchronous orbit") but didn't fully understand the physics. So it's a nice idea, and a refreshing change from the normal design philosophy for mass-media SF, but there are some glaring flaws in the execution.
 
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