Betrayed by a kiss? *Movie Spoiler alert*

[Jeri]

Yeah, I do hope to see him winding down with someone at the end of a hard day. He's still the smartest, most knowledgeable, most resourceful guy in Starfleet. It's not a loss.

Nor is he unique in those traits. His power comes from his unique pysche for some of us.

Knowledge is the role he plays in Star Trek; it's the source of his power. Knowledge is power.

His being "leashed" is a mystique, not a source of power. It's a source of attraction. And being "leashed" is no more unique than having knowledge.

You're welcome to your view, but mine also is informed by watching the show on NBC since 1966 -- and being a Spock fan.

 

[maryh]

Knowledge is the role he plays in Star Trek; it's the source of his power. Knowledge is power.

His being "leashed" is a mystique, not a source of power. It's a source of attraction. And being "leashed" is no more unique than having knowledge.

You're welcome to your view, but mine also is informed by watching the show on NBC since 1966 -- and being a Spock fan.

I focused more on his psyche. As a multidimensional character he appeals to many on different levels. The embodiment of knowledge could easily be a computer. Spock, and his psyche was much more interesting.

It isn't very friendly to indirectly accuse another's post of being "uninformed".

 

[Sci]

Er, no, we're going back to the pre-TOS area to see our favorite characters in new situations. That's how it's always been advertised.

And what is the time frame between when we see Spock sucking face with Uhura and the beginning of where TOS commences - The ManTrap?

Well, the film is set in 2258 and TOS starts in 2266. So there's a good eight years' difference there.

But it's also a meaningless question, because this is a new timeline. Same characters living through different life circumstances.

Many of us think that the change Spock will have to undergo to result in Spock as depicted in TOS is not plausible in the time frame. We were looking for the Spock who would become TOS Spock. This one is different.

Well, depends on what you mean by "different." It's certainly a different set of life circumstances that's going to prompt different choices. But the essence -- the "soul," if you will -- of the character is the same.

Is he going to make all of the same choices that Nimoy's Spock did? Nope. Is his psychological condition going to differ? Certainly it will. This does not mean it's not the same essential character, however. Merlin is still Merlin, whether we're watching him in Disney's The Sword in the Stone or in TH White's The Once and Future King or Marion Zimmer Bradley's The Mists of Avalon.

I thoroughly disagree -- there's nothing about Quinto's Spock that's lacking in "psychological masterpiece"-ness. It's the same character, the same soul, same essence. And I for one would be interested in seeing in Spock what we only caught a glimpse of in Sarek -- the details of a Vulcan-Human relationship and why its participants would enter such a thing.

Didn't care for Sarek. Too human for my tastes. Liked him better in TOS.

I was referring to TOS Sarek.

Nonetheless, Spock is not the same character. No turmoil, no repressed emotions, no loneliness, no self-deception etc.

Bullshit. Of course there's turmoil, repressed emotions, self-deception, and loneliness. He was as dedicated to trying to suppressing his emotions in this film as he was in TOS, even in the face of severe psychological trauma -- to the point where an attack upon his relationship with his mother made him lose it.

If you don't think there was, you weren't paying attention.

 

[maryh]

Well some of us found this Spock less unique and likeable. Doesn't bother me, just disappointed. Didn't care for lots of Trek in the recent years, so writing it off entirely is not a big deal for me. Didn't provide the same satifaction and degree of entertainment for me as TOS and TOS Spock did for me. Enjoy the nuTrek!! I've got TOS on disc if I need a fix of it. Thought I'd get new adventures with the old crew but like most things, you can't ever go back. Lightenening doesn't strike twice.

 

[indranee]

it did for some of us. I hear you, though. art is subjective.

 

[seniorsleuth]

But in TOS it wasn't being torn - it was repression and almost denial of his human half, and emotions. It was very tough to watch at times, mesmerizing, inspiring and a great source for comedy.

So much of this was forced by the formula television drama was held to at the time by the network honchos. There had to be a reset button--no real character evolution. There is a tradeoff. Some may like a character a certain way and for him/her to remain that way. Others may wish for characters to believably evolve with their experiences, just as in real life. Once such evolution was allowed (starting in the mid-1980s), it's no mystery why the era is known as television's second golden age. Actors were challenged, and Emmys were liberally distributed to those who worked on shows with such realistic characterizations.

That's why the appeal of Spock/Uhura is more than "girlish glee" (which, by the way, seems to trivialize and misunderstand the tastes of a whole bunch of fans who seem to like it). It's an acknowledgment that in the altered timeline, NuSpock already has evolved in a fashion that is still true to the Spock in TOS but which reflects his ensuing experiences.

 

[Jeri]

Knowledge is the role he plays in Star Trek; it's the source of his power. Knowledge is power.

His being "leashed" is a mystique, not a source of power. It's a source of attraction. And being "leashed" is no more unique than having knowledge.

You're welcome to your view, but mine also is informed by watching the show on NBC since 1966 -- and being a Spock fan.

I focused more on his psyche. As a multidimensional character he appeals to many on different levels. The embodiment of knowledge could easily be a computer. Spock, and his psyche was much more interesting.

It isn't very friendly to indirectly accuse another's post of being "uninformed".

I did not. I plainly said mine also is informed, assuming yours was.

Spock's knowledge is not embodied in a computer. He was accused and challenged on this basis many times.

The Enterprise, Starfleet, his friends and family owe him their lives many times over for his capabilities as a flesh and blood individual.

Furthermore, his psychology is involved in this main focus of his character even more than the side focus of his romances.

 

[Franklin]

This has to affect Kirk, too. Part of what his character was will no longer make sense. It was Kirk's devotion to duty that kept him from having a meaningful relationship with a woman (a girlfriend). He longed for Rand, but knew he couldn't touch her. He had a dalliance with Helen Noel, but again, nothing could come of it. This loneliness and realization that he chose duty and the Enterprise over any kind of personal emotional fulfillment in a realtionship was a source of inner conflict for Kirk.

Now, here's Spock with a girlfriend. And, a fellow bridge officer to boot. Seems silly Kirk should be so lonely, now. How is it believable? Why can't he have a steady girl, too? Seems odd that duty and the burdens of his position do not bother Spock, but they don't leave Kirk time for a relationship. Or, perhaps that will change, too. And in the next movie, Spock and Uhura will double-date with Kirk and Chapel. Unless McCoy's dating Chapel by then.

 

[Jeri]

This has to affect Kirk, too...

That doesn't follow. Kirk's reasoning for not settling down is that he's already devoted to the Enterprise. It's not related to or dependent on anything Spock does.

 

[seniorsleuth]

This has to affect Kirk, too. Part of what his character was will no longer make sense. It was Kirk's devotion to duty that kept him from having a meaningful relationship with a woman (a girlfriend). He longed for Rand, but knew he couldn't touch her. He had a dalliance with Helen Noel, but again, nothing could come of it. This loneliness and realization that he chose duty and the Enterprise over any kind of personal emotional fulfillment in a realtionship was a source of inner conflict for Kirk.

Now, here's Spock with a girlfriend. And, a fellow bridge officer to boot. Seems silly Kirk should be so lonely, now. How is it believable? Why can't he have a steady girl, too? Seems odd that duty and the burdens of his position do not bother Spock, but they don't leave Kirk time for a relationship. Or, perhaps that will change, too. And in the next movie, Spock and Uhura will double-date with Kirk and Chapel. Unless McCoy's dating Chapel by then.

It seems to me that Kirk's evolution is going in the other direction. It's the Enterprise, not a woman, that is providing him with the stability and direction he needed. He could have had a steady girlfriend at any time before that, but when he gazed at the ship being built at the shipyard, there was more longing there than he had for any woman we saw in the film.

I think he can have a one film romance with no problem, but to entangle both Spock and Kirk would leave some fans out just as not entangling either of them would.

 

[Franklin]

This has to affect Kirk, too...

That doesn't follow. Kirk's reasoning for not settling down is that he's already devoted to the Enterprise. It's not related to or dependent on anything Spock does.

Spock is less devoted to the Entperprise than Kirk is? Spock is less devoted to his duty? That's why I say it makes Kirk's devotion seem like an obsession, not devotion. If Spock can find the time, so can Kirk. If Spock can balance his life, why can't Kirk?
And, if Kirk is afraid of what duty or command may do to a relationship, then why isn't Spock? Are we saying Spock places Uhura above his duty? Would she be comfortable with that? (For that matter, are we saying Uhura places Spock above her duty?)

There may be logical answers for the above, but I just thought I saw a big contradiction in how Kirk was denied relationships and Spock is in one. I'm afraid for this Kirk, it may all boil down to he's a love 'em and leave 'em kind of guy. One night stands aside, we knew what Kirk Prime really yearned for and missed when he allowed himself to have those feelings. He wanted what Spock has.

 

[indranee]

This has to affect Kirk, too. Part of what his character was will no longer make sense. It was Kirk's devotion to duty that kept him from having a meaningful relationship with a woman (a girlfriend). He longed for Rand, but knew he couldn't touch her. He had a dalliance with Helen Noel, but again, nothing could come of it. This loneliness and realization that he chose duty and the Enterprise over any kind of personal emotional fulfillment in a realtionship was a source of inner conflict for Kirk.

Now, here's Spock with a girlfriend. And, a fellow bridge officer to boot. Seems silly Kirk should be so lonely, now. How is it believable? Why can't he have a steady girl, too? Seems odd that duty and the burdens of his position do not bother Spock, but they don't leave Kirk time for a relationship. Or, perhaps that will change, too. And in the next movie, Spock and Uhura will double-date with Kirk and Chapel. Unless McCoy's dating Chapel by then.

I believe to this day that, when all was said and done, Edith Keeler lost out to Kirk's one true love -- his ship.

not saying there weren't other reasons involved (of course there were), but for Kirk, it's always been the Enterprise.

 

[indranee]

This has to affect Kirk, too...

That doesn't follow. Kirk's reasoning for not settling down is that he's already devoted to the Enterprise. It's not related to or dependent on anything Spock does.

Spock is less devoted to the Entperprise than Kirk is? Spock is less devoted to his duty? That's why I say it makes Kirk's devotion seem like an obsession, not devotion. If Spock can find the time, so can Kirk. If Spock can balance his life, why can't Kirk?
And, if Kirk is afraid of what duty or command may do to a relationship, then why isn't Spock? Are we saying Spock places Uhura above his duty? Would she be comfortable with that? (For that matter, are we saying Uhura places Spock above her duty?)

There may be logical answers for the above, but I just thought I saw a big contradiction in how Kirk was denied relationships and Spock is in one. I'm afraid for this Kirk, it may all boil down to he's a love 'em and leave 'em kind of guy. One night stands aside, we knew what Kirk Prime really yearned for and missed when he allowed himself to have those feelings. He wanted what Spock has.

see "no beach to walk on".

Spock never had the feeling for the Enterprise that Kirk did. if you didn't know that, you need to watch TOS again.

Kirk and Spock always had different destinies. it was true in the OT, it's true in the NuT.

 

[seniorsleuth]

This has to affect Kirk, too...

That doesn't follow. Kirk's reasoning for not settling down is that he's already devoted to the Enterprise. It's not related to or dependent on anything Spock does.

Spock is less devoted to the Entperprise than Kirk is? Spock is less devoted to his duty? That's why I say it makes Kirk's devotion seem like an obsession, not devotion. If Spock can find the time, so can Kirk. If Spock can balance his life, why can't Kirk?
And, if Kirk is afraid of what duty or command may do to a relationship, then why isn't Spock? Are we saying Spock places Uhura above his duty? Would she be comfortable with that? (For that matter, are we saying Uhura places Spock above her duty?)

There may be logical answers for the above, but I just thought I saw a big contradiction in how Kirk was denied relationships and Spock is in one. I'm afraid for this Kirk, it may all boil down to he's a love 'em and leave 'em kind of guy. One night stands aside, we knew what Kirk Prime really yearned for and missed when he allowed himself to have those feelings. He wanted what Spock has.

Really, there is nothing but balance and reaching multiple demographics that's preventing any of the characters from having ongoing relationships. I just don't see them giving one to both Kirk and Spock, because some members of the audience want to see the "lone male hero" character (even though it does nothing for me).

Besides, there is a difference between being devoted to the ship as a Captain and being devoted to it from another position. In essence, when Kirk was promoted to Captain over Spock and a host of others, he was perhaps sacrificing something else.

 

[Jeri]

This has to affect Kirk, too...

That doesn't follow. Kirk's reasoning for not settling down is that he's already devoted to the Enterprise. It's not related to or dependent on anything Spock does.

Spock is less devoted to the Entperprise than Kirk is? Spock is less devoted to his duty?...

As I said, that doesn't follow. Spock's reasons for not getting tied down were not the same as Kirk's.

 

[Franklin]

That doesn't follow. Kirk's reasoning for not settling down is that he's already devoted to the Enterprise. It's not related to or dependent on anything Spock does.

Spock is less devoted to the Entperprise than Kirk is? Spock is less devoted to his duty?...

As I said, that doesn't follow. Spock's reasons for not getting tied down were not the same as Kirk's.

Fair enough.

"One more game of 3D chess, Mr. Spock?" Kirk asked.
"No, captain," said Spock. "It is 22:30. Uhura was expecting me at 22:00." He paused and added, "It is plomeek soup night."
"Ah, yes. Enjoy your plomeek soup, Mr. Spock." Kirk made a motion in the air like he was cracking a whip.
"She's taking shore leave in two days to visit her mother," said Spock.
"Who do you think got her out of here?" said Kirk quickly while grinning.
"Captain," Spock spoke in measured tones, "do you still have that box of cigars from Cygnus 3, that bottle of Saurian brandy, and -- "
"Those movies from Orion?" Kirk interrupted.
"Yes. The movies." Spock stood up straight at the door. Did he smile? "Senior officers meeting in two days, captain?"
"As soon as her shuttle leaves, Mr. Spock."
Walking out, Spock turns back to Kirk and says, almost cheerfully for him, "I will inform Dr. McCoy and Mr. Scott."

Let me tell you something, nothing throws a monkey wrench into a bromance quicker than when one of the guys gets a girlfriend.

 

[Jeri]

Franklin, as I have said in one of the previous threads, I wouldn't think it likely they'll give any dynamic character a steady relationship. So, I doubt there's anything to worry about.

If you want to see what they are likely thinking about Kirk in this regard, you can read his reaction to meeting the Enterprise in the shipyard, starting on page 55 in the novelization. It was love at first sight, as for a woman. The same as it's always been for him.

(I posted the whole passage earlier in a thread; not sure where now.)

 

[Franklin]

Franklin, as I have said in one of the previous threads, I wouldn't think it likely they'll give any dynamic character a steady relationship. So, I doubt there's anything to worry about.

If you want to see what they are likely thinking about Kirk in this regard, you can read his reaction to meeting the Enterprise in the shipyard, starting on page 55 in the novelization. It was love at first sight, as for a woman. The same as it's always been for him.

(I posted the whole passage earlier in a thread; not sure where now.)

Yeah. Just poking a little fun at it. Key word is probably, "little." I see your point of view. Maybe it's even more valid than mine. No argument here. And, maybe Spock and Uhura will go the way of Riker and Troi. Or Decker and Ilia. Or Jerry and Elaine.

Given the look on McCoy's face when he first saw the Enterprise in space, I wonder if Kirk feared he was hitting on his lady?

 

[Jeri]

Well, that's what I was thinking when you were proposing Spock might be equally dedicated to the Enterprise: sorry, but she only has one love!!!!!!

Nah. Even Shatner/Kirk fooled around. It'll be fun.

 

[Jeri]

It seems to me that Kirk's evolution is going in the other direction. It's the Enterprise, not a woman, that is providing him with the stability and direction he needed. He could have had a steady girlfriend at any time before that, but when he gazed at the ship being built at the shipyard, there was more longing there than he had for any woman we saw in the film...

This point was nicely made; missed that first time.

Did anybody but me notice they put a reflected light in Jim's eyes while he was gazing at the Enterprise?