Betrayed by a kiss? *Movie Spoiler alert*

[Admiral James Kirk]

Please don't try to take Star Trek and turn it into a little club to use to make yourself feel better than other people. That's self-serving, egotistical nonsense.

Well said my friend !!

You're both right about that but... Such mentality has been built into the fanbase from the beginning.

From the start Trek was supposed to appeal to a mass audience but it didn't.

It had a small devoted fan base to start which blew up a smidge when the show hit syndication. Voila, our elite, slash-fic writing little cult was born.

In the 70s the fans wrote their little fanzines patting themselves on the back for their intellectual superiority and almost religious devotion to a television series.

Roddenberry didn't help things by going around like he was the pope and treating the fans like his disciples.

Clearly the 70s were where the whole Trekkie superiority complex comes from. Read one of those Best of Trek compilations. Those books were full of such fannish pomposity that they make our boards look tame by comparison.

One fan rattled off a list of why she was a true Star Trek fan while most people were just casual fans. Where does that ego come from? Where did she get off trying to quantify the unquantifiable?

It's just the need to feel better than somebody else I guess. "I'm not a nerd! Those people are just too stupid to understand something like Star Trek!"

I guess I can relate. As a kid I wasn't a closeted Trekker. I brought my Trek books to school and my Starlogs and shit like that and I was hounded to the shithouse and back. Oh I was treated like a real sack of crap for loving Trek.

I think the thing that burns my ass the most is those fuckmisers who trashed me in school probably saw the movie, liked it and are acting like they discovered Star Trek. God, I'd love to see them anally raped by a Mugato. I really would.

Uh... Did I get off track? I dunno. Anyway fan ego sucks, yadda, yadda..

 

[Amaris]

Please don't try to take Star Trek and turn it into a little club to use to make yourself feel better than other people. That's self-serving, egotistical nonsense.

Well said my friend !!

You're both right about that but... Such mentality has been built into the fanbase from the beginning.

From the start Trek was supposed to appeal to a mass audience but it didn't.

It had a small devoted fan base to start which blew up a smidge when the show hit syndication. Voila, our elite, slash-fic writing little cult was born.

In the 70s the fans wrote their little fanzines patting themselves on the back for their intellectual superiority and almost religious devotion to a television series.

Roddenberry didn't help things by going around like he was the pope and treating the fans like his disciples.

Clearly the 70s were where the whole Trekkie superiority complex comes from. Read one of those Best of Trek compilations. Those books were full of such fannish pomposity that they make our boards look tame by comparison.

One fan rattled off a list of why she was a true Star Trek fan while most people were just casual fans. Where does that ego come from? Where did she get off trying to quantify the unquantifiable?

It's just the need to feel better than somebody else I guess. "I'm not a nerd! Those people are just too stupid to understand something like Star Trek!"

I guess I can relate. As a kid I wasn't a closeted Trekker. I brought my Trek books to school and my Starlogs and shit like that and I was hounded to the shithouse and back. Oh I was treated like a real sack of crap for loving Trek.

I think the thing that burns my ass the most is those fuckmisers who trashed me in school probably saw the movie, liked it and are acting like they discovered Star Trek. God, I'd love to see them anally raped by a Mugato. I really would.

Uh... Did I get off track? I dunno. Anyway fan ego sucks, yadda, yadda..

Post win.

J.

 

[Cky]

I'm not reading through all of these posts and threads, and it might have been said already, but the whole Spock and Uhura relationship was actually going to happen in the TOS series, but because of the time period, it wouldn't have been accepted, a white man dating a black woman, alien or not.

 

[indranee]

I'm not reading through all of these posts and threads, and it might have been said already, but the whole Spock and Uhura relationship was actually going to happen in the TOS series, but because of the time period, it wouldn't have been accepted, a white man dating a black woman, alien or not.

yep, apparently Roddenberry wanted it but was rebuffed by the suits.

 

[M'Sharak]

...

Uh... Did I get off track? I dunno. ...

Just a wee bit, yeah.

 

[seven14]

Thank you both Minuialeth and Indranee for your welcome and kind words!!!!

I am so glad ST XI has brought me to this forum...so many threads...really good comments ...and like-minded people!!!!

No, no triangles...I was just trying to come up with an additional scenario so U/S could have as much dialogue and interaction with one another in ST XII but definitely there would be no triangle...just misunderstanding creating havoc with our sweet couple.

ciao for now good peoples

 

[Crusher Disciple]

First time poster

Welcome! Great post, Kiddo!

ETA: and welcome seven14!!!

Didn't T'Spring cheat on Spock in the original? Who's to say she's not knocking eyebrows with somebody else as we speak?

CD,
too lazy to read through the entire thread

 

[indranee]

yep. T'Pring cheated on Spock. she ain't no wallflower. how we forget!

 

[Crusher Disciple]

And I got her name wrong. Damn, it's like a Monday morning over here.

 

[indranee]

a Spring morning

 

[seniorsleuth]

First time poster

Welcome! Great post, Kiddo!

ETA: and welcome seven14!!!

Didn't T'Spring cheat on Spock in the original? Who's to say she's not knocking eyebrows with somebody else as we speak?

CD,
too lazy to read through the entire thread

Well, she may HAVE knocked eyebrows, but chances are that as we speak she's nothing more than a bit of space dust.

In considering people's objections to the romance here and elsewhere, I think they can be summed up as follows (with rebuttals):

1) It is out of character for Spock to have a romance. I think that this has been rebutted quite effectively throughout this thread and others, in terms of the timeline change, the original intentions of Roddenberry, and so on.

2) It is against regulations for a teacher to be involved with a student, or for a subordinate to be involved with a superior. There is nothing in the film that suggests they were involved WHILE she was his student. Besides, we know they are not teacher and student now. Now they are two officers aboard the Enterprise, and we know officers have been involved with each other in various Star Trek series. It doesn't appear to be against regulations. And then, there's that timeline thing again.

3) They aren't really involved. It was a momentary lapse on Spock's part. She was pushing herself at him and it was a vulnerable moment. I guess people see what they want to see. My question is, why do they want to see Uhura as a hussy?

I tend to doubt whether these arguments are all being made by people who like the film. But, if they are, I suspect that what they are saying may not be the real reason they dislike the romance. There is evidence that they just prefer to see other pairings for Spock or Uhura, whether in the film(s) or their own imaginations.

What they forget is that for the series to be successful, it will have to attract various demographics, and many filmgoers who are not "fans" in the strictest sense. These filmgoers don't think about filling in gaps in the story with fan activities; they want to see the gaps filled in the film itself. Eliminating any ongoing romance from the film(s) will knock off a whole chunk of the potential audience. I mean, I can do without alot of the action sequences, too, but I understand that doing so will sacrifice audience, and I want the film(s) to continue to be successful.

 

[maryh]

1) It is out of character for Spock to have a romance. I think that this has been rebutted quite effectively throughout this thread and others, in terms of the timeline change, the original intentions of Roddenberry, and so on.

Not sure how it is rebutted except to say that Spock is not the same as TOS Spock. Agreed, many of us loved TOS Spock and this is not him. The Spock we knew is gone. It is hard to argue what someones intentions might have been. You aren't supposed to debate "could haves" or "should haves" because nobody really knows what would have happened. But if Roddenberrys intentions were to put those 2 characters together, it still isn't TOS because it didn't happen in the series.

 

[Sci]

1) It is out of character for Spock to have a romance. I think that this has been rebutted quite effectively throughout this thread and others, in terms of the timeline change, the original intentions of Roddenberry, and so on.

Not sure how it is rebutted except to say that Spock is not the same as TOS Spock.

It's been rebutted numerous times by people pointing out that Spock was depicted on several occasions as having the potential to make that choice. Certainly the Spock we saw during TOS was unwilling to make that choice, but that doesn't make it an essential, eternal element of that character -- it's clearly a situational thing.

Spock in ST09 has a different set of life circumstances, and there's no reason to think that he might not make different choices under those different circumstances. No need to reduce it to, "He's a different person." No. He's the same person living under different circumstances. Same person, different day.

 

[maryh]

It's been rebutted numerous times by people pointing out that Spock was depicted on several occasions as having the potential to make that choice. Certainly the Spock we saw during TOS was unwilling to make that choice, but that doesn't make it an essential, eternal element of that character -- it's clearly a situational thing.

Spock in ST09 has a different set of life circumstances, and there's no reason to think that he might not make different choices under those different circumstances. No need to reduce it to, "He's a different person." No. He's the same person living under different circumstances. Same person, different day.

Perhaps, except I thought we were going back to the TOS era to get back our favorite characters, and find one of them is so different that he doesn't appeal to some of us like he did before. They went for the female glee, not the psychological masterpiece that Spock was.

 

[Sci]

It's been rebutted numerous times by people pointing out that Spock was depicted on several occasions as having the potential to make that choice. Certainly the Spock we saw during TOS was unwilling to make that choice, but that doesn't make it an essential, eternal element of that character -- it's clearly a situational thing.

Spock in ST09 has a different set of life circumstances, and there's no reason to think that he might not make different choices under those different circumstances. No need to reduce it to, "He's a different person." No. He's the same person living under different circumstances. Same person, different day.

Perhaps, except I thought we were going back to the TOS era to get back our favorite characters,

Er, no, we're going back to the pre-TOS area to see our favorite characters in new situations. That's how it's always been advertised.

and find one of them is so different that he doesn't appeal to some of us like he did before. They went for the female glee, not the psychological masterpiece that Spock was.

I thoroughly disagree -- there's nothing about Quinto's Spock that's lacking in "psychological masterpiece"-ness. It's the same character, the same soul, same essence. And I for one would be interested in seeing in Spock what we only caught a glimpse of in Sarek -- the details of a Vulcan-Human relationship and why its participants would enter such a thing.

 

[Jeri]

Yeah, I do hope to see him winding down with someone at the end of a hard day. He's still the smartest, most knowledgeable, most resourceful guy in Starfleet. It's not a loss.

 

[maryh]

Er, no, we're going back to the pre-TOS area to see our favorite characters in new situations. That's how it's always been advertised.

And what is the time frame between when we see Spock sucking face with Uhura and the beginning of where TOS commences - The ManTrap? Many of us think that the change Spock will have to undergo to result in Spock as depicted in TOS is not plausible in the time frame. We were looking for the Spock who would become TOS Spock. This one is different.

I thoroughly disagree -- there's nothing about Quinto's Spock that's lacking in "psychological masterpiece"-ness. It's the same character, the same soul, same essence. And I for one would be interested in seeing in Spock what we only caught a glimpse of in Sarek -- the details of a Vulcan-Human relationship and why its participants would enter such a thing.

Didn't care for Sarek. Too human for my tastes. Liked him better in TOS. Nonetheless, Spock is not the same character. No turmoil, no repressed emotions, no loneliness, no self-deception etc.

 

[maryh]

Yeah, I do hope to see him winding down with someone at the end of a hard day. He's still the smartest, most knowledgeable, most resourceful guy in Starfleet. It's not a loss.

Nor is he unique in those traits. His power comes from his unique pysche for some of us.

http://www.thelmagazine.com/newyork/vulcan-the-soul-of-spock/Content?oid=1152781

 

[seniorsleuth]

I thoroughly disagree -- there's nothing about Quinto's Spock that's lacking in "psychological masterpiece"-ness. It's the same character, the same soul, same essence. And I for one would be interested in seeing in Spock what we only caught a glimpse of in Sarek -- the details of a Vulcan-Human relationship and why its participants would enter such a thing.

I agree. He is still in turmoil, still torn between two worlds. In fact, he's in even more turmoil because of the destruction of one of his worlds. I don't think his abstinence from having an emotional relationship with a woman is THE THING that defines this pyschological turmoil. There is so, so much more.

 

[maryh]

I agree. He is still in turmoil, still torn between two worlds. In fact, he's in even more turmoil because of the destruction of one of his worlds. I don't think his abstinence from having an emotional relationship with a woman is THE THING that defines this pyschological turmoil. There is so, so much more.

But in TOS it wasn't being torn - it was repression and almost denial of his human half, and emotions. It was very tough to watch at times, mesmerizing, inspiring and a great source for comedy.