Trek XI's implications for future Trek novels (major movie spoilers)

[RuthlessNate]

Re: Trek XI's implications for future Trek novels (major movie spoiler

Obviously, it's too late to reconcile the novels and STO, but will Countdown eventually factor into later novels? Will a different version of the Countdown events occur in the novels? Or will the novels disregard Countdown all together?

It's probably years before it will become an issue, since the novel continuity is still five in-story years before Countdown. But the books aren't beholden to the comics, and there are a couple of things in Countdown that arguably are inconsistent with the movie itself anyway. Even Roberto Orci himself, the co-writer of the film and co-plotter of Countdown, has stated more than once that it isn't canonical. My guess is that the novels will go their own way.

Of course, there's no reason to retell these specific events in a different way. The movie already spelled out those basic events, so I assume the novels would just deal with events before, after, and parallel to the destruction of Romulus.

Yeah, that's kind of what I figured would be the case. I never saw Mr. Orci's comments on the canonicity (it's not a word, but I'm using it) of Countdown. And I assumed it would be several years at least before those events were reached. Still, I look forward to what the novels will do with the political reprocrussions of the destruction of Romulus. The split of the Romulan Empire and the signing of the Typhon Pact by the Star Empire are extreme as it is.

 

[Cap'n Crunch]

Re: Trek XI's implications for future Trek novels (major movie spoiler

One issue that might need to be addressed is the effect of the amount of drilling that the Narada managed to get done at Earth.

Spock shot down the base of the drill and it plugged the hole when it fell.

Now that I think about it, the drill was shaped a lot like a drain plug. And when Spock shot it down it even had the "chain" attached to it.

 

[seigezunt]

Re: Trek XI's implications for future Trek novels (major movie spoiler

what's STO?

 

[David cgc]

Re: Trek XI's implications for future Trek novels (major movie spoiler

Star Trek Online, the upcoming multiplayer RPG which is set in 2409 and has a post-Nemesis backstory which is almost, but not quite, entirely unlike that of the novels.

 

[Ronald Held]

Re: Trek XI's implications for future Trek novels (major movie spoiler

Christopher, what source had Orci saying that star trek Countdown was not canonical? He couldn't mean all of it, because some of it is in the movie.

 

[captcalhoun]

Re: Trek XI's implications for future Trek novels (major movie spoiler

well, obviously those bits in the movie are, but those that aren't, aren't.

 

[Christopher]

Re: Trek XI's implications for future Trek novels (major movie spoiler

Christopher, what source had Orci saying that star trek Countdown was not canonical?

He mentioned it in his recent TrekMovie.com Q&A thread which I linked to earlier in this thread (and here it is again), in response to a question about an inconsistency between Countdown and the movie (pertaining to the power of the Narada's weapons, I believe). I recall him saying the same in a TrekMovie thread some time ago, though I can't track down the link.

Besides, it's not onscreen, therefore it's non-canonical by default.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Re: Trek XI's implications for future Trek novels (major movie spoiler

One issue that might need to be addressed is the effect of the amount of drilling that the Narada managed to get done at Earth.

Spock shot down the base of the drill and it plugged the hole when it fell.

Now that I think about it, the drill was shaped a lot like a drain plug. And when Spock shot it down it even had the "chain" attached to it.

There should have been a long pause, then offscreen somebody yells "Somebody want to call a #()%*#^# PLUMBER?!?!?!?"

 

[Steve Roby]

Re: Trek XI's implications for future Trek novels (major movie spoiler

I recall him saying the same in a TrekMovie thread some time ago, though I can't track down the link.

This, perhaps?

TrekMovie: Well the bigger issue is more [Star Trek movie prequel comic] "Star Trek: Countdown" and whether or not that is considered canon. That is not a promotional thing, that is a…. thing thing. Your name, JJ’s name is on it and Alex’s name is on it. So canon or not canon?

Roberto Orci: I don’t think that is for me to decide. As you know I considered some of the books, in my mind, to be of character canon. And some of them in between the movies to possibly be even possible candidates for canon, until some other movie comes along and makes those impossible. That is my personal view, but I am not going to declare whether comics are canon.
​

 

[Therin of Andor]

Re: Trek XI's implications for future Trek novels (major movie spoiler

it's nice to get a definitve answer from one of the writers.

It might also be worth considering that Vulcans are more reclusive in this timeline, due to Nero's interventions in the events 25 years previous, and there may not be as many off-world Vulcans as would normally be assumed.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Re: Trek XI's implications for future Trek novels (major movie spoiler

I loved the movie, but I'm hoping we still might have some original timeline TOS books. Or maybe I should just finish reading the 100 so that are already there...

Think about it. Unless a TOS novel specifically visits Vulcan during the 5YM, features Amanda, discusses Kirk's birthplace, or is a sequel to episodes like "Journey to Babel", most TOS novels could happen in either timeline.

Final Frontier is fantastic

Totally agree!

 

[Christopher]

Re: Trek XI's implications for future Trek novels (major movie spoiler

It might also be worth considering that Vulcans are more reclusive in this timeline, due to Nero's interventions in the events 25 years previous, and there may not be as many off-world Vulcans as would normally be assumed.

Why would Nero's destruction of the Kelvin cause a mass exodus of millions of Vulcans back to their homeworld? There's no cause and effect there.

Besides, Orci's already told us that the 10,000 figure only referred to escapees from the homeworld and isn't meant to suggest anything about the number of Vulcans abroad. So I don't see any reason to keep concocting rationales to justify a low number of surviving Vulcans. There's nothing in the movie that's incompatible with there being millions of survivors, aside from Spock's "endangered species" line which was delivered when he was, to quote himself (sort of), "emotionally compromised."

Think about it. Unless a TOS novel specifically visits Vulcan during the 5YM, features Amanda, discusses Kirk's birthplace, or is a sequel to episodes like "Journey to Babel", most TOS novels could happen in either timeline.

Not really. The characters and their relationships aren't quite the same. The ship is very different. The time frame is different. Maybe some could fit if you squint a little, and if they're really light on character and detail. The standalones from the '90s might be the best bet.

Which means that the idea of books that could fit in either timeline is not very desirable. More interesting to explore and develop the differences between the timelines, to go with the changes Abrams has wrought and run with them.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Re: Trek XI's implications for future Trek novels (major movie spoiler

Why would Nero's destruction of the Kelvin cause a mass exodus of millions of Vulcans back to their homeworld? There's no cause and effect there..

Well, just throwing it out there. The link between Romulans and Vulcans seemed to become public knowledge a lot earlier, thanks to Nero.

 

[Christopher]

Re: Trek XI's implications for future Trek novels (major movie spoiler

^Yes, it did, but I don't see how that would result in millions of Vulcans who've lived their whole lives on offworld colonies suddenly abandoning their homes, their lives, and their entire cultures to relocate to their ancestral world. Sure, maybe there'd be some increased mistrust toward Vulcans as a result, but a mass exodus? No. There was plenty of mistrust toward Germans in WWI and then WWII, and a lot of German-American place names were changed, family names Americanized, things like that, but the entire German-descended population of America did not stage a mass exodus back to Germany.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Re: Trek XI's implications for future Trek novels (major movie spoiler

I can think of one reason that surviving offworld Vulcans would be encouraged to return to the colony: To increase the genetic viability of the race for continued reproducing. Is 10,000 considered enough of such diversity in order to repopulate the species?

 

[Therin of Andor]

Re: Trek XI's implications for future Trek novels (major movie spoiler

maybe there'd be some increased mistrust toward Vulcans as a result, but a mass exodus? No.

I never said "mass exodus". Just suggesting that for 25 years, Vulcan colonisation, exploration and expansion may well have curbed.

"Spock's World" once suggested secession from the UFP.

 

[Sci]

Re: Trek XI's implications for future Trek novels (major movie spoiler

^Yes, it did, but I don't see how that would result in millions of Vulcans who've lived their whole lives on offworld colonies suddenly abandoning their homes, their lives, and their entire cultures to relocate to their ancestral world. Sure, maybe there'd be some increased mistrust toward Vulcans as a result, but a mass exodus? No.

I could, however, conceive of the idea that the Narada attack may have prompted such increased tensions between Vulcans and the rest of the Federation that the Confederacy of Vulcan could choose to secede from the Federation. That would go a long way towards explaining why Vulcan needed a fleet of Starfleet ships to arrive before the Narada even attacked them, since otherwise there would presumably be a dedicated division of Starfleet ships in the Vulcan system.

 

[Christopher]

Re: Trek XI's implications for future Trek novels (major movie spoiler

I could, however, conceive of the idea that the Narada attack may have prompted such increased tensions between Vulcans and the rest of the Federation that the Confederacy of Vulcan could choose to secede from the Federation. That would go a long way towards explaining why Vulcan needed a fleet of Starfleet ships to arrive before the Narada even attacked them, since otherwise there would presumably be a dedicated division of Starfleet ships in the Vulcan system.

But we were told in the film that the majority of the fleet was dealing with some event in the Laurentian system.

Besides, even if Vulcan weren't a member of the UFP, it's not like that would've caused them to give up their spacefaring technology altogether (a technology which, let's remember, predates Starfleet by several hundred years). They would've still had ships to defend their system, and if they weren't in Starfleet, they would probably have had more defenses available because they wouldn't have been participating in the Laurentian business.

Also, keep in mind that Nero needed to torture Pike to extract the defense codes for Earth before he could attack the planet. There must've been some kind of planetary or systemwide defense grid he had to shut down in order to get close enough. (Note that in TMP, there was a reference to V'Ger extracting the codes to Earth's defense grid from the Enterprise computers and shutting it down that way.) Naturally Vulcan would've had its own defense grid that Nero would've had to override. He probably used the computers of the Jellyfish, a Vulcan-built vessel from over a century in the future, to override Vulcan's system defenses. That would be necessary regardless of Vulcan's membership status.

Anyway, I think it's implausible that the revelation of Vulcan-Romulan kinship would've led to Vulcan's secession from the UFP or withdrawal from space or any such catastrophic things. After all, that kinship was revealed in "Balance of Terror" and it had no such impact then. The only difference here is that it happened 33 years sooner.

 

[Sci]

Re: Trek XI's implications for future Trek novels (major movie spoiler

I could, however, conceive of the idea that the Narada attack may have prompted such increased tensions between Vulcans and the rest of the Federation that the Confederacy of Vulcan could choose to secede from the Federation. That would go a long way towards explaining why Vulcan needed a fleet of Starfleet ships to arrive before the Narada even attacked them, since otherwise there would presumably be a dedicated division of Starfleet ships in the Vulcan system.

But we were told in the film that the majority of the fleet was dealing with some event in the Laurentian system.

But surely they'd still have a dedicated fleet in orbit of the core worlds.

Besides, even if Vulcan weren't a member of the UFP, it's not like that would've caused them to give up their spacefaring technology altogether (a technology which, let's remember, predates Starfleet by several hundred years). They would've still had ships to defend their system, and if they weren't in Starfleet, they would probably have had more defenses available because they wouldn't have been participating in the Laurentian business.

Perhaps. Or perhaps the Vulcans in this timeframe, motivated by alienation from the rest of the Federation, have chosen to embrace a more extremely pacifistic interpretation of cthia, and therefore lack indigenous defense systems.

I'm not saying any of this DID happen, but it makes for some interesting thoughts. Vulcan secession would also help explain why Vulcan had an ambassador to Earth, and why we never saw any other Vulcans in Starfleet.

ETA:

Anyway, I think it's implausible that the revelation of Vulcan-Romulan kinship would've led to Vulcan's secession from the UFP or withdrawal from space or any such catastrophic things. After all, that kinship was revealed in "Balance of Terror" and it had no such impact then. The only difference here is that it happened 33 years sooner.

Well, 33 years sooner, and apparently closer to the Federation core worlds, and led to the destruction of a Federation starship in a surprise attack -- and all with no Vulcan Starfleet officers there to help mitigate the rest of the Federation's perception of Vulcan's having apparently kept their relationship with the Romulans a secret (as established in the ENT novel Kobayashi Maru).

 

[Christopher]

Re: Trek XI's implications for future Trek novels (major movie spoiler

But we were told in the film that the majority of the fleet was dealing with some event in the Laurentian system.

But surely they'd still have a dedicated fleet in orbit of the core worlds.[/quote]

Yes, and that was the fleet that responded to the Vulcans' distress call and got trashed by Nero. No doubt whatever part of the fleet defended Vulcan would've been trashed just as effortlessly, given that the Narada's technology was 129 years more advanced.

Perhaps. Or perhaps the Vulcans in this timeframe, motivated by alienation from the rest of the Federation, have chosen to embrace a more extremely pacifistic interpretation of cthia, and therefore lack indigenous defense systems.

Any spacegoing power with vessels capable of accelerating to any fraction of the speed of light would have to have a robust planetary defense system as an absolute, indispensable necessity. If a small scout ship accelerated on impulse drive to a mere quarter of lightspeed and accidentally collided with a planet's surface, the resultant explosion could be enough to trigger an extinction-level planetary cataclysm. Pacifist or not, a starfaring civilization cannot rationally go without a planetary defense system, because accidents can and do happen.

Anyway, I think it's implausible that the revelation of Vulcan-Romulan kinship would've led to Vulcan's secession from the UFP or withdrawal from space or any such catastrophic things. After all, that kinship was revealed in "Balance of Terror" and it had no such impact then. The only difference here is that it happened 33 years sooner.

Well, 33 years sooner, and apparently closer to the Federation core worlds, and led to the destruction of a Federation starship in a surprise attack -- and all with no Vulcan Starfleet officers there to help mitigate the rest of the Federation's perception of Vulcan's having apparently kept their relationship with the Romulans a secret (as established in the ENT novel Kobayashi Maru).

I just don't believe it. See what I said above about German-Americans. Even if there were some degree of backlash, it's absurd that it would be so extreme as to cause a starfaring civilization to retreat entirely within the bounds of its home system. It would be an insane overreaction, either on the part of Vulcans to be so terrified of backlash or on the part of other races to develop such fanatical bigotry toward Vulcans as to drive them back to their homeworld. It's just a ridiculously extreme notion, and there's absolutely no reason to suggest or advocate it because there's not a shred of evidence that there aren't still millions of Vulcans offworld.