Mary-Sue Analysis of Nu-Kirk

[theFirebottle]

And for the record, I'm not saying these are the qualities which Kirk potentially has.

You're not addressing my actual post.

Then there appears to be a curious disconnect in your own line of argumentation. If you are attempting to prove that Kirk is a Gary Stu character, then shouldn't you be raising character traits that apply to him as evidence instead of bringing up the general qualities of general Mary Sue characters and then unrelatedly asserting Kirk is a Mary Sue character?

 

[pookha]

i still say it depends on which episode you use to judge kirk prime.
consider miri or even the return of the archons.
only kirk with his ability to talk a computer to death can save the day.

 

[Heimdall]

And for the record, I'm not saying these are the qualities which Kirk potentially has.

You're not addressing my actual post.

Then there appears to be a curious disconnect in your own line of argumentation. If you are attempting to prove that Kirk is a Gary Stu character, then shouldn't you be raising character traits that apply to him as evidence instead of bringing up the general qualities of general Mary Sue characters and then asserting Kirk is a Mary Sue character?

I was responding to your assertion that a good protagonist will still rank high on Mary sue tests.

 

[Vance]

Then there appears to be a curious disconnect in your own line of argumentation. If you are attempting to prove that Kirk is a Gary Stu character, then shouldn't you be raising character traits that apply to him as evidence instead of bringing up the general qualities of general Mary Sue characters and then asserting Kirk is a Mary Sue character?

You're taking this way too personally, I think... There's plenty about NuKirk that's Mary Sue.. and, yes, the 'tragic past' is a big part of that, since it wasn't neccessary to have that for the plot. They do have Kirk as a 'chosen one', who is better at everything than everyone (the syndrome of the Captain having to be the best at all things - another fan-fic failing), and so on...

 

[Peter the Younger]

Then there appears to be a curious disconnect in your own line of argumentation. If you are attempting to prove that Kirk is a Gary Stu character, then shouldn't you be raising character traits that apply to him as evidence instead of bringing up the general qualities of general Mary Sue characters and then asserting Kirk is a Mary Sue character?

You're taking this way too personally, I think... There's plenty about NuKirk that's Mary Sue.. and, yes, the 'tragic past' is a big part of that, since it wasn't neccessary to have that for the plot. They do have Kirk as a 'chosen one', who is better at everything than everyone (the syndrome of the Captain having to be the best at all things - another fan-fic failing), and so on...

And this is why we would really need to see how you graded nu Kirk vs. old Kirk. Just a shot in the dark here, but I'm thinking some of the grading is just a weee bit biased.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Isn't a Mary or Garry Sue a character that is created by the author sometimes as a representation of said author that always looks better than the main character. Well Kirk IS the main character so he can't look better than himself.

 

[Aragorn]

TrekBBS is like a terrorist cell. You cut off Captain Robert April, and in steps Feofilakt.

 

[Vance]

And this is why we would really need to see how you graded nu Kirk vs. old Kirk. Just a shot in the dark here, but I'm thinking some of the grading is just a weee bit biased.

Actually, I upped it a lot for PrimeKirk, going on the side of Mary Sue there. NuKirk's age is also a huge factor, and how quickly (and easily) he gains rank, respect, etc, in the course of the movie. NuKirk is definately a Mary Sue, too good, too young, too expert, particularly for his first real outing.

But, if you want a character that's even higher than NuKirk? Prime Spock. Well over 100 baby...

Edit: 124, running Prime Spock through.... nearly 100 points past being a Mary Sue all by himself.

 

[theFirebottle]

You're taking this way too personally, I think... There's plenty about NuKirk that's Mary Sue.. and, yes, the 'tragic past' is a big part of that, since it wasn't neccessary to have that for the plot. They do have Kirk as a 'chosen one', who is better at everything than everyone (the syndrome of the Captain having to be the best at all things - another fan-fic failing), and so on...

He's better than everyone at everything? Really? Bullshit. If this Kirk were a Gary Stu, he would have been intruding on all of the supporting characters' jobs and coopting their contributions to the advancement of the plot. He would have been telling everyone how to do their duties and they'd be grateful and fawning. That's how a Gary Stu works. Gary Stu doesn't let supporting characters do things like pilot the ship or make decisions. Gary Stu doesn't give orders, he just steps around and performs all of the tasks himself while the other characters look on in awe.

And, you know, real human beings do things like lose a parent and then fritter away considerable talent after growing up in a broken family. There's nothing at all unbelievable about it. You can't just write off "tragic past" as a broken story element simply because so many writers use it as a crutch. In this case, it's neither gratuitous nor overdone.

 

[Feofilakt]

Then there appears to be a curious disconnect in your own line of argumentation. If you are attempting to prove that Kirk is a Gary Stu character, then shouldn't you be raising character traits that apply to him as evidence instead of bringing up the general qualities of general Mary Sue characters and then asserting Kirk is a Mary Sue character?

You're taking this way too personally, I think... There's plenty about NuKirk that's Mary Sue.. and, yes, the 'tragic past' is a big part of that, since it wasn't neccessary to have that for the plot. They do have Kirk as a 'chosen one', who is better at everything than everyone (the syndrome of the Captain having to be the best at all things - another fan-fic failing), and so on...

And this is why we would really need to see how you graded nu Kirk vs. old Kirk. Just a shot in the dark here, but I'm thinking some of the grading is just a weee bit biased.

I... did. Look on page one, I tested Kirk three times with a range of 28-33. Still has Mary Sue elements, but nothing excessive.

 

[Vance]

He's better than everyone at everything? Really? Bullshit. If this Kirk were a Gary Stu, he would have been intruding on all of the supporting characters' jobs and coopting their contributions to the advancement of the plot.

You mean like a cadet taking command of the Enterprise in front of about a dozen people of higher rank and qualifications in that very room? Dude, that's the very definition of Mary Sue.

You can't just write off "tragic past" as a broken story element simply because so many writers use it as a crutch. In this case, it's neither gratuitous nor overdone.

In was not really related to the plot, and was a cheap excuse to give NuKirk some kewl angst and 'teen-rebel' issues which he explicitly did not have in the original time line. Again, it was an unneeded crutch here, and most certainly qualifies.

 

[Feofilakt]

TrekBBS is like a terrorist cell. You cut off Captain Robert April, and in steps Feofilakt.

Snarky comments and quasi trolling against a member are irrelevant to the discussion and incredibly disrespectful. Either contribute something or get out of the thread, but do not throw darts at members.

Seriously, this was totally uncalled for.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

"Mary Sue" is such an "inside Trek" piece of nonsense.

I suppose if playing with Internet quizzes from a hostile posture persuades the test-taker that they're getting a meaningful result and that reassures them somehow that their opinion is correct, then the exercise serves some purpose...just not a very interesting one for anyone else.

The folks who think the movie is awful are just way outvoted by the millions of people who are enjoying the hell out of it week after week. I'm sure that somewhere there are some Internet quiz results establishing the superior taste and intelligence of the negative folks, but I'm unconvinced.

 

[Cyke101]

Chekov saved Kirk's life. CHEKOV! He was easily the most useless of the TOS bunch! Yet the movie establishes Chekov's technical superiority over Kirk's. If that don't shut down the Gary Stu argument, I don't know what will.

 

[Feofilakt]

"Mary Sue" is such an "inside Trek" piece of nonsense.

I suppose if playing with Internet quizzes from a hostile posture persuades the test-taker that they're getting a meaningful result and that reassures them somehow that their opinion is correct, then the exercise serves some purpose...just not a very interesting one for anyone else.

I posted a link to the test so you can try it out for yourself. Feel free.

 

[theFirebottle]

You mean like a cadet taking command of the Enterprise in front of about a dozen people of higher rank and qualifications in that very room? Dude, that's the very definition of Mary Sue.

In was not really related to the plot, and was a cheap excuse to give NuKirk some kewl angst and 'teen-rebel' issues which he explicitly did not have in the original time line. Again, it was an unneeded crutch here, and most certainly qualifies.

Errm... Do you mean the desk-jockey Admirals and Academy officials who now have to train up a decimated cadet population to replace the crews of six starships destroyed at Vulcan, not to mention deal with the diplomatic and political fallout of a permanent and radical change in the balance of power in the galaxy? Do you propose putting a desk-jockey in charge of the Enterprise while Kirk helps handle the diplomacy? ...I just don't see this Kirk as being any good at diplomacy, sorry. The right tool for the right job: the hotshot who has just proven his worth in a tight situation in spades should be in charge of the heavy hardware and the elder experienced politicos should be handling the knotty, intractable, and fiendishly subtle diplomatic intrigues.

I did not see Kirk angst once in this film even though he had adequate reason to. I think you're just projecting Gary Stu-ism onto the character because you, like all of the other five-percenters, walked into the theatre eager and waiting to dislike every aspect of the movie no matter what. This Kirk's "tragic past" is a skillfully done aversion of a conventional "for want of a nail" alternate reality plot. Originally, Kirk's inspiration for going into Starfleet came from his admiration for his father. If you take that away, you'd expect to see the whole house of cards fall in -- but no! destiny is a powerful thing and Kirk will become Kirk no matter what gets put in his way!

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

"Mary Sue" is such an "inside Trek" piece of nonsense.

I suppose if playing with Internet quizzes from a hostile posture persuades the test-taker that they're getting a meaningful result and that reassures them somehow that their opinion is correct, then the exercise serves some purpose...just not a very interesting one for anyone else.

I posted a link to the test so you can try it out for yourself. Feel free.

Why would I waste the minute? I've seen the film, know what I think, and don't need an Internet quiz to wave at people in the mistaken belief that it bolsters the significance of my opinion.

"Mary Sue..." Jesus Christ, no one but Trekkies talk like that...

 

[theFirebottle]

"Mary Sue..." Jesus Christ, no one but Trekkies talk like that...

Actually, normal writers talk about this shit all the time. Occupational hazard.

 

[Feofilakt]

"Mary Sue" is such an "inside Trek" piece of nonsense.

I suppose if playing with Internet quizzes from a hostile posture persuades the test-taker that they're getting a meaningful result and that reassures them somehow that their opinion is correct, then the exercise serves some purpose...just not a very interesting one for anyone else.

I posted a link to the test so you can try it out for yourself. Feel free.

Why would I waste the minute? I've seen the film, know what I think, and don't need an Internet quiz to wave at people in the mistaken belief that it bolsters the significance of my opinion.

"Mary Sue..." Jesus Christ, no one but Trekkies talk like that...

The term "Mary Sue" is common in ALL fandoms, btw.

 

[Vance]

Chekov saved Kirk's life. CHEKOV! He was easily the most useless of the TOS bunch! Yet the movie establishes Chekov's technical superiority over Kirk's. If that don't shut down the Gary Stu argument, I don't know what will.

Chekov was a weapons god, even in TOS. (Seriously, this is actually one of the most amusing bits of TWOK as well, Chekov takes the weapons, blasts the Reliant to shit with a series of perfect shots, fight over.) Granted, not all that great once you beam down to the planet, though...

Seriously, though, this is Star Trek, the franchise that fargin' defined the "Mary Sue" (seriously, the original Mary Sue was a Star Trek fan-fic character). You've got to expect some of it no matter what incarnation you get. I mean, as I said, Prime Spock is so Mary Sue that the sheer mass of it causes Vulcan to implode!

But to defend the movie's absurdities and obvious Mary Suism in the sort of way some of ya'll are doing it is actually kinda scary. Relax, guys, and think of kittens.