Mary-Sue Analysis of Nu-Kirk

[Feofilakt]

Using this test: http://www.springhole.net/quizzes/marysue.htm I ran through the parameters for Kirk from the new movie and ended up with a score of....


81.

Fifty and above is very, very bad and indicates a poorly constructed character.

 

[theFirebottle]

Using this test: http://www.springhole.net/quizzes/marysue.htm I ran through the parameters for Kirk from the new movie and ended up with a score of....


81.

Fifty and above is very, very bad and indicates a poorly constructed character.

If you use those things properly, most protagonists come out in the high double digits. It doesn't mean anything except they're the protagonist. If the protagonist didn't act as The Locus Of Plot, he wouldn't be the protagonist!

 

[Cyke101]

I fail to see how a guy who got his butt kicked four times is a M(G)ary Sue. Sure, one of those times was intentional, but still, that's a far cry from ripped-shirt Shatner Kirk.

 

[Heimdall]

Using this test: http://www.springhole.net/quizzes/marysue.htm I ran through the parameters for Kirk from the new movie and ended up with a score of....


81.

Fifty and above is very, very bad and indicates a poorly constructed character.

If you use those things properly, most protagonists come out in the high double digits. It doesn't mean anything except they're the protagonist. If the protagonist didn't act as The Locus Of Plot, he wouldn't be the protagonist!

I'm going to have to disagree. If you'd go through that test, not many of the questions are actually essential for a protagonist. As a writer, I don't really see your point as being that valid. A good, well designed protagonist should not be particularly high.

I fail to see how a guy who got his butt kicked four times is a M(G)ary Sue. Sure, one of those times was intentional, but still, that's a far cry from ripped-shirt Shatner Kirk.

Combat efficacy is but one quality of a Mary Sue/Gary Stu.

 

[Feofilakt]

Using this test: http://www.springhole.net/quizzes/marysue.htm I ran through the parameters for Kirk from the new movie and ended up with a score of....


81.

Fifty and above is very, very bad and indicates a poorly constructed character.

If you use those things properly, most protagonists come out in the high double digits. It doesn't mean anything except they're the protagonist. If the protagonist didn't act as The Locus Of Plot, he wouldn't be the protagonist!

I was on a forum where we ran multiple protagonists through from numerous works of fiction and there was a direct correlation between the level of Mary Sue-ness of the characters and the quality of the work itself.

Paul Atreides, for instance, scores remarkably low given his genre and circumstance.

 

[Peter the Younger]

Using this test: http://www.springhole.net/quizzes/marysue.htm I ran through the parameters for Kirk from the new movie and ended up with a score of....


81.

Fifty and above is very, very bad and indicates a poorly constructed character.

I'm not exactly sure how you could answer these questions honestly, since you aren't the screenwriter.

 

[Heimdall]

Using this test: http://www.springhole.net/quizzes/marysue.htm I ran through the parameters for Kirk from the new movie and ended up with a score of....


81.

Fifty and above is very, very bad and indicates a poorly constructed character.

I'm not exactly sure how you could answer these questions honestly, since you aren't the screenwriter.

Many of them can be answered just by what happens in the story(IE; Did a character do such and such).

 

[Feofilakt]

Using this test: http://www.springhole.net/quizzes/marysue.htm I ran through the parameters for Kirk from the new movie and ended up with a score of....


81.

Fifty and above is very, very bad and indicates a poorly constructed character.

I'm not exactly sure how you could answer these questions honestly, since you aren't the screenwriter.

Very easy, I didn't pick anything that had a subjective basis, only an objective one (observable in the film). Do you want me to provide a list of everything I checked and a rationale for why I checked it? I probably should...

 

[theFirebottle]

I'm going to have to disagree. If you'd go through that test, not many of the questions are actually essential for a protagonist. As a writer, I don't really see your point as being that valid. A good, well designed protagonist should not be particularly high.

If we're going to trot out writerly credentials, I'm one too. I write space opera.

There is no consistent definition of a Mary Sue character. Like pornography, they tend to be "I'll know one when I see one" characters. In fan fiction, they're a lot easier to identify because they're original characters who get written into existing groups of characters and proceed to become black holes of plot and character interaction from which no character can escape. They distort existing dynamics around them like a black hole causes gravitational lensing.

In original works, the protagonist is almost always exceptional, otherwise why would they be the protagonist? A protagonist, by definition, is the focus and driving force of the plot and most of the character dynamics. People usually don't want to read about protagonists who are unexceptional and blend into the background, especially in space opera. Space opera is an escapist genre that demands extraordinariness from its characters, settings, and situations. Mary Sue-dom is undifferentiable from what is expected and demanded of protagonists.

 

[Crusher Disciple]

But does he have violet eyes and raven hair?

 

[theFirebottle]

Also, I triple dog dare the OP to run Prime Kirk through the same test. Go on.

 

[Heimdall]

I'm going to have to disagree. If you'd go through that test, not many of the questions are actually essential for a protagonist. As a writer, I don't really see your point as being that valid. A good, well designed protagonist should not be particularly high.

If we're going to trot out writerly credentials, I'm one too. I write space opera.

There is no consistent definition of a Mary Sue character. Like pornography, they tend to be "I'll know one when I see one" characters. In fan fiction, they're a lot easier to identify because they're original characters who get written into existing groups of characters and proceed to become black holes of plot and character interaction from which no character can escape. They distort existing dynamics around them like a black hole causes gravitational lensing.

In original works, the protagonist is almost always exceptional, otherwise why would they be the protagonist? A protagonist, by definition, is the focus and driving force of the plot and most of the character dynamics. People usually don't want to read about protagonists who are unexceptional and blend into the background, especially in space opera. Space opera is an escapist genre that demands extraordinariness from its characters, settings, and situations. Mary Sue-dom is undifferentiable from what is expected and demanded of protagonists.

It's true that it's harder to pin down a Mary Sue in work that's not fan fiction, but it's still quite possible. There are 'universal markers' of what a Mary Sue is, regardless of what the format is. The qualities of a Mary Sue are non-essential, and actually detrimental to a well developed Protagonist. A Mary Sue can be identified by having wholely abnormal, hyper-exaggerated qualities which take them beyond what we humans can identify with. A few examples to demonstrate the point.

Is it necessary for a protagonist to have a tragic past? No, not necessarily. For instance, Paul Atreides does not have a tragic past. All his tragedy is in the story itself, experienced by the reader alongside Paul. The same with Holden Caulfield, who is actually a spoiled brat. Even Luke Skywalker, who 'technically' has a tragic past by having his mother die and his father be Darth Vader, does not 'psychologically' have a tragic past.

Is it necessary for a protagonist to have an adoring, fawning crowd which worships them?

Is it necessary for a protagonist to be the best at nearly every meaningful task and field the character gets involved in?

Is it necessary for a protagonist to have random, superficial physical features which 'set them apart' from other characters like odd hair color or oddly colored eyes?

And for the record, I'm not saying these are the qualities which Kirk potentially has.

However, I do think it's patently false to say that being "exceptional" is the same thing as being a "Mary Sue". You can be exceptional but still have limitations. For instance, Picard was exceptional; he was one of the best captains in Starfleet. But numerous times he was shown to be limited and ultimately human.

 

[Tentacle]

I ran the nukirk through this i got 80

but then i would think the old kirk wouldnt have done much better.

 

[pookha]

necessary[/B] for a protagonist to be the best at nearly every meaningful task and field the character gets involved in?
].

well that does describe paul atreides .
all through dune it is noted about how well paul does something better,,or has better observation then anyone else.
and i dont know.. being under constant threat of assination and pretty much having to grow up very fast is tragic to most.

but yeah it would be interesting to pick kirk from certain episodes and run him through it.

 

[theFirebottle]

It's true that it's harder to pin down a Mary Sue in work that's not fan fiction, but it's still quite possible. There are 'universal markers' of what a Mary Sue is, regardless of what the format is. The qualities of a Mary Sue are non-essential, and actually detrimental to a well developed Protagonist. A Mary Sue can be identified by having wholely abnormal, hyper-exaggerated qualities which take them beyond what we humans can identify with. A few examples to demonstrate the point.

Is it necessary for a protagonist to have a tragic past? No, not necessarily. For instance, Paul Atreides does not have a tragic past. All his tragedy is in the story itself, experienced by the reader alongside Paul. The same with Holden Caulfield, who is actually a spoiled brat. Even Luke Skywalker, who 'technically' has a tragic past by having his mother die and his father be Darth Vader, does not 'psychologically' have a tragic past.

Is it necessary for a protagonist to have an adoring, fawning crowd which worships them?

Is it necessary for a protagonist to be the best at nearly every meaningful task and field the character gets involved in?

Is it necessary for a protagonist to have random, superficial physical features which 'set them apart' from other characters like odd hair color or oddly colored eyes?

And for the record, I'm not saying these are the qualities which Kirk potentially has.

No. I disagree entirely that there are any universal markers of a Mary Sue. Anything that can be written at all can be written either well or poorly.

It was necessary for this Kirk to have a tragic past to set up the difference in why he joined Starfleet. It's laced right into the heart of the plot.

...I don't see the fawning crowds of admirers, really. Uhura turns him down flat, completely subverting the conventional, inevitable Hero Gets The Girl romantic subplot. Pike finds him wasting his life in a bar and demands more of him -- and probably spent those three Academy years hounding him for better grades, more effort, and kicking him into line. Kirk spends most of the film getting the shit kicked out of him by friend and foe alike.

...and he bloody well isn't the best at everything he tries his hand at. He doesn't waltz in and do all of the supporting characters' jobs for them like Gary Stu might, and neither does he tell them how to do their jobs. Take out a single one of the supporting characters' contributions and it falls apart: they aren't superfluous and Kirk can't step in and identify three dialects of Romulan against Vulcan language or run around sickbay saving peoples' lives.

Kirk does his own job, and he does it well because he's had three years of the galaxy's best training at the magnet-school-to-end-all-magnet-schools for prodigies, geniuses, and the best and the brightest. He's not perfect (gets beat, loses the girl, fails to save one of the two threatened planets of the plot) and the rules of the universe don't bend for him any more than they've already bent by virtue of this being space opera.

 

[Borgminister]

NuKirk's just a boy named Sue.

 

[Heimdall]

No. I disagree entirely that there are any universal markers of a Mary Sue. Anything that can be written at all can be written either well or poorly.

I agree that things can be written poorly or well. But part of the "universal markers" that I'm talking about has to do with poor writing and implementation. The whole problem with "Mary Sue" writing is that it uses cheap, ineffective means to make their protagonists seem more 'special'. Instead of actually making them better characters with depth and substance, they increase superficial things(Powers, physical attractiveness, etc), and amplify the surrounding crowds reactions accordingly.

Also, Firebottle. Please read my post again. In particular;

And for the record, I'm not saying these are the qualities which Kirk potentially has.

You're not addressing my actual post.

 

[Feofilakt]

Just did Kirk, scored in the 28-33 range with about three runs. Those are within acceptable limits, though perhaps somewhat Sue-ish.

Edit: I mean the OLD Kirk using the series and movies as reference.

 

[Newspaper Taxi]

This test is biased -- one of the questions asks if the character has "Kirk Syndrome" and then has a link to a Kirk-related test.

Link: http://www.springhole.net/quizzes/kirktest.htm
See how NuKirk does on that one!

Also, don't let Harry Potter come near this Mary Su test.

 

[Vance]

Just to balance it, I ran through 'old Kirk' on it (skipping the Kirk test, which I'll do in a bit) and only got 33, which is a mary-sue, yes, but not rediculously so.

Edit: The Kirk test, oddly enough, is based on the popular conception of Kirk... but not actually what Kirk really did through TOS. Even so, I did add the relevent 'womanzing' bits to PrimeKirk's score to get that 33.

Edit #2: Prime Spock... 124, Baby... One Hundred and Fracking Twenty Four. He's a Mary Sue with nearly 100 points to spare!