A Semi-Hater Revisits Voyager

[kimc]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Battlestar Galactica is a similar show to Voyager except Ron Moore implemented many of the changes he wanted to see on Voyager. It is about a fleet fleeing the genocide of their worlds, and it is a very dark and adult show with great continuity and it is focused very much on the characters. There is no aliens, no stopping off to scan nearby anomalies, it is about a group of 50,000 human survivors struggling to survive. It's not perfect, but it is a very dark and very serious cross between DS9 and Voyager, and it is one of my favourite shows ever.

It's also one of mine. However, I can see a place for both types of shows. BSG does a great time with the realism of the human condition. Voyager as well as all Trek explores the possibility of an enlightened humanity and what they can accomplilsh - to some including myself that's as much a sci fi idea as transporters and replicators.

 

[Tomalak]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

As much I liked BSG, Voyager was never going to be that show. Star Trek has always shown a more optimistic future, where humans are better than they are today. Maybe it's not "realistic" to our 21st century eyes, but I think that's part of the charm. Also, I think BSG became too serious - I found the unremitting gloom quite draining to watch. It's a dystopian future, which Star Trek isn't. The perceived darkness of DS9 is often overemphasised - this was also the funniest of the Trek series, and handled that humour well. Even 'Profit and Lace' is a well-executed bedroom farce, regardless of whether you think it was a good episode.

 

[TheGodBen]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

It's also one of mine. However, I can see a place for both types of shows. BSG does a great time with the realism of the human condition. Voyager as well as all Trek explores the possibility of an enlightened humanity and what they can accomplilsh - to some including myself that's as much a sci fi idea as transporters and replicators.

Oh certainly, Star Trek should never have gone to the extremes which BSG went to. Sometimes a Great Notion is a fantastic episode of BSG, but there is no way anything like that should have been attempted in a Star Trek series. Still, it would have been nice if Voyager had a little more damage as time went by, and if the stories had focused more on the crew and their situation.

Also, I think BSG became too serious - I found the unremitting gloom quite draining to watch. It's a dystopian future, which Star Trek isn't. The perceived darkness of DS9 is often overemphasised - this was also the funniest of the Trek series, and handled that humour well. Even 'Profit and Lace' is a well-executed bedroom farce, regardless of whether you think it was a good episode.

BSG needed more humour, that's true. But they tried doing a lighter episode in season 1 with Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down and it didn't turn out so well. It seems like they stopped trying after that. Season 4.5 in particular was very bleak, but it was supposed to be that way as setup for the finale.

 

[Tomalak]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Oh certainly, Star Trek should never have gone to the extremes which BSG went to. Sometimes a Great Notion is a fantastic episode of BSG, but there is no way anything like that should have been attempted in a Star Trek series. Still, it would have been nice if Voyager had a little more damage as time went by, and if the stories had focused more on the crew and their situation.

Yes, exactly. That seems to be the theme we keep returning to in this thread. It's not that the show needed to be "dark" as such, but the reality of the situation often seemed so far away. They seemed to be a bit too happy for 150 people stuck together 70 years from home.

 

[Lynx]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Oh certainly, Star Trek should never have gone to the extremes which BSG went to. Sometimes a Great Notion is a fantastic episode of BSG, but there is no way anything like that should have been attempted in a Star Trek series. Still, it would have been nice if Voyager had a little more damage as time went by, and if the stories had focused more on the crew and their situation.

Yes, exactly. That seems to be the theme we keep returning to in this thread. It's not that the show needed to be "dark" as such, but the reality of the situation often seemed so far away. They seemed to be a bit too happy for 150 people stuck together 70 years from home.

But maybe it was their way to cope with a hopeless situation?

I mean, there have been people who have worked in dreadful places who have kept the spirit up by twisted jokes and weird humor. Maybe many of the crewmembers on Voyager just did the same. Tom Paris definitely seem to be that kind of person with his jokes and funny comments.

 

[Lt Cmdr Tyler]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Well i've been a die hard Voyager fan since caretaker and have seen every single ep.
Don't ask me to name them in order though.

But I fell in love with the concept, the characters and the unknown. For a while I thought that she would never make it back and the movie would take that step. Unfortunately that didn't happen, and it all ended in a matter of seconds at the end of End Game.

I must admit that, I myself have some criticism to some episodes, but apart from that it was FANTASTIC!!!

It was meant to be different from the rest. Not a soap opera/continuing saga like DS9. They had to constantly move in a forward direction to get home. Voyager epitomises the term '"To boldly go where no one has gone before"

It had elements of TNG of course, and even TOS because they were explorers.

I have never read a Trek novel. And NEVER WILL. The sheer concept of knowing Capt Kathryn Janeway is dead is obsurd. (notice how i said CAPTAIN) Because she is. Well I suppose Admiral in Nemesis, but thats were it stops. Books don't count. Like bringing Kirk back to life, or so i Heard. Its rediculous. Star Trek is a TV show and Movie franchise. Not book store top 10 sellers!!!
It started on TV not in novels like Harry Potter or Twilight. As far as i'm concerned none of those books exist. Janeway is still alive to me. What if they did want to make a Voyager movie post Nemesis. I still think it could be done, it'd make a good film. And literally anything could happen.

This series was literally my life at one stage. It meant everything to me, and I even looked up at Janeway as a rolemodel type character. (She reminded me of my grandmother. May she RIP)
each character was unique to this show. Couldn't have worked any other way really. Thats why when I hear or see people criticise it to such a level. I do get defensive.

Like I said before, this epitomises Star Trek. It was soley about SURVIVAL. The human spirit of not giving up and taking that giant leap into the unknown. Not about going to war and trying to destroy entire species and civilisations.

So for all you Voyager Haters I say this:
One ship lost in the unknown. One crew with no one but themselves to lean on. One woman with the greatest responsibility a starship Captain could have. Her crew. Her children and wanting to keep them safe, and get them HOME.

To the starship Voyager. NCC 74656 I salute you.

 

[kimc]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

BSG needed more humour, that's true. But they tried doing a lighter episode in season 1 with Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down and it didn't turn out so well.

Actually that was one of my favorite episodes. I wish they had attempted more like it.

 

[TheGodBen]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

It was meant to be different from the rest. Not a soap opera/continuing saga like DS9. They had to constantly move in a forward direction to get home. Voyager epitomises the term '"To boldly go where no one has gone before"

While story arcs which revolve around species Voyager meets are debatable in this sense, there's no reason why there couldn't have been story-arcs based on the ship. Voyager was the perfect opportunity for those sorts of stories because this was a crew which was stuck together, there should have been more character drama and less alien-of-the-week drama.

What if they did want to make a Voyager movie post Nemesis. I still think it could be done, it'd make a good film. And literally anything could happen.

Sorry, but Paramount just spent millions of dollars marketing a new Trek universe and it has achieved some degree of success. The Trek Prime universe is dead, for the foreseeable future all productions are likely to take place in the JJverse. That's not necessarily a bad thing, even if I do think the new movie was poor.

Like I said before, this epitomises Star Trek. It was soley about SURVIVAL.

No, it wasn't. If it was about survival they wouldn't have been hanging out in Sandrines, the beach resort or the racist Irish town. They wouldn't have working replicators. They wouldn't have the amazing shuttle-o-matic. If it was about survival then Janeway wouldn't have entered the cheat code for infinite torpedoes.

Voyager was supposed to be about survival, but that's not what it ended up becoming.

The human spirit of not giving up and taking that giant leap into the unknown. Not about going to war and trying to destroy entire species and civilisations.

If this is a shot at DS9 then clearly you did not pay much attention to that series.

So for all you Voyager Haters I say this:
One ship lost in the unknown. One crew with no one but themselves to lean on. One woman with the greatest responsibility a starship Captain could have. Her crew. Her children and wanting to keep them safe, and get them HOME.

To the starship Voyager. NCC 74656 I salute you.

One ship, lost in the unknown. Faffing about. With limitless energy supplies and the ability to look pristine every week. One woman, who constantly drags her crew into dangerous situations to satisfy her curiosity. Her largely forgettable crew. Her children, who she cares for so much she would change time itself to save them... except for all those redshirts who died over 7 years, they didn't matter so much.

To the starship Voyager NCC whatever: You were no Enterprise.

BSG needed more humour, that's true. But they tried doing a lighter episode in season 1 with Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down and it didn't turn out so well.

Actually that was one of my favorite episodes. I wish they had attempted more like it.

Spoiler: BSG

My problem with the episode is that I didn't like Ellen, she felt incredibly obnoxious during the first two seasons. I liked her during the New Caprica arc, but then she died and it made me sad... and then she came back and reminded me why I disliked her in the first place.

 

[kimc]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

My problem with the episode is that I didn't like Ellen, she felt incredibly obnoxious during the first two seasons. I liked her during the New Caprica arc, but then she died and it made me sad... and then she came back and reminded me why I disliked her in the first place.

She came back!?

I'm kidding! I don't get Sci Fi so have been waiting (semi-patiently) for the dvd release. I've already been spoiled though because I've read some finale reviews. That's where the "semi" comes in.

I'm uncertain whether or not to friendly you for a spoiler though. I mean, the finale was aired a while ago...

 

[Tomalak]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I have to say, it was Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down that won me over. I was getting a bit hacked off with it by that point, as people kept telling me it was the best show, like, ever, man, and I was continuing to watch more out of a sense of duty than enjoyment. Ellen was a breath of fresh air, and I'm glad I persevered with the show.

Like I said before, this epitomises Star Trek. It was soley about SURVIVAL. The human spirit of not giving up and taking that giant leap into the unknown. Not about going to war and trying to destroy entire species and civilisations.

I totally disagree with this bit. Star Trek was never about mere "survival", it was about people exploring, meeting new people, and expanding their horizons. For a show not about war, there sure were a lot of battles in Voyager.

 

[TheGodBen]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I'm uncertain whether or not to friendly you for a spoiler though. I mean, the finale was aired a while ago...

Oops, my bad! I forgot to use the spoiler tags, and I believe the unofficial rule is that spoilers last a year so I was in the wrong. I've corrected my post.

 

[TheGodBen]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Random Thoughts (*)

Boooooring! This is yet another episode of Star Trek where they stop off on some planet and one of the main cast gets arrested for something which a) they didn't do, or b) should not be illegal in the first place. This episode is the latter.

The idea of a society where violent thoughts are illegal is interesting, but a procedural investigation show is not a good way to explore that idea. I don't care that there is a black market on the planet where violent thoughts are bought and sold, I don't care that these aliens are going to remove the violent thought from B'Elanna's brain, I don't care about anything happening in the episode. Even Tim Russ gives a strangely disinterested performance, this is a long way from his excellent performance in Meld.

I'm a fan of the Prime Directive, I think it is a great concept, but these aliens need Jim Kirk to show up and give a speech about how restrictive their laws are and how civil liberties are wonderful. Sure, they may lead to acts of violence but that is the price you pay for living in a free society. This is one time where I would give Janeway a pass for bending the PD, but the episode focuses on its boring investigation story instead. Bad decision.

I'm afraid what we have here is an episode which would feel right at home on TNG.

 

[Count Zero]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Spoiler: Star Trek XI

About Vulcan being destroyed... Star Fleet knew about Vulcan's impending destruction minutes before it happened, so why didn't they send a warning for all Vulcans to evacuate to a nearby planet or something? That severely cheapened that particular moment for me

Spoiler: Trek XI

They did send a warning. Spock orders this before he leaves to rescue his parents.

Oh certainly, Star Trek should never have gone to the extremes which BSG went to. Sometimes a Great Notion is a fantastic episode of BSG, but there is no way anything like that should have been attempted in a Star Trek series. Still, it would have been nice if Voyager had a little more damage as time went by, and if the stories had focused more on the crew and their situation.

Yes, exactly. That seems to be the theme we keep returning to in this thread. It's not that the show needed to be "dark" as such, but the reality of the situation often seemed so far away. They seemed to be a bit too happy for 150 people stuck together 70 years from home.

But maybe it was their way to cope with a hopeless situation?

I mean, there have been people who have worked in dreadful places who have kept the spirit up by twisted jokes and weird humor. Maybe many of the crewmembers on Voyager just did the same. Tom Paris definitely seem to be that kind of person with his jokes and funny comments.

But we never really saw this. I'm all for humour in the face of dire circumstances like in Blake's 7, but in Voyager those circumstances were ignored for the most part.

 

[Tomalak]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

But maybe it was their way to cope with a hopeless situation?

I mean, there have been people who have worked in dreadful places who have kept the spirit up by twisted jokes and weird humor. Maybe many of the crewmembers on Voyager just did the same. Tom Paris definitely seem to be that kind of person with his jokes and funny comments.

Basically BSG and Voyager were opposite ends of the spectrum. The Voyager crew seemed to be having a bit too much fun, yet the BSG lot barely cracked a smile. Gallows humour will always exist in the worst situations (the 'Blitz spirit' if you like), so somewhere there's a happy medium.

 

[Mareika]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Year of Hell, Part 2 (****)

And the reset hits. Ah well.

What I really love about this episode is Annorax, since finishing the episode I've been using him in the Trek XI forum as an example of a really good antagonist because of the fact that you care about him and part of you wants him to succeed. He's not your standard villain who destroys entire worlds for absolutely no reason *cough*Nero*cough*, Annorax is a person first and foremost and his story is compelling. Even during the final battle sequence he is given that beautiful character moment where he runs into his office to find the lock of his wife's hair disintegrate before his eyes. That's how you make an antagonist.

Totally agree. very well said. I feel the same.

 

[Tachyon]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I must say that I am still very surprised how much some people put importance on how the ship looks. Would it really had been such a great improvement, if there had been few dents on Voyager's hull for couple of episodes? Sorry, but that seems very absurd for me.

Voyager was about the people, and as a die-hard Voyager stan, I did episodes handling them. Voyager crew is my ultimate favorite from all Trek crews. But Voyager was about the journey too, about travelling throught Delta Quadrant and exploring new worlds and civilazations. And it did just that. What was the color of warp nacelles or the overall condition of the ship is simply irrelevant for me.

 

[TheGodBen]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

The colour of the warp nacelles is very important, it has to be blue! You can't have green nacelles, that's physically impossible!!!

The damage would have been more than an aesthetic change, it would have involved a tonal shift in how the show is presented. It is hard to take the premise that this is a crew in a dangerous situation seriously when they have a magic ship which is never damaged. Increasing the damage heightens the sense of danger and makes us root for the characters more.

Voyager had a great opportunity to put a group of humans in real danger and have them display stoicism in the face of constant peril. Having the crew pull together and display the better sides of their nature even under the constant threat of danger, it would have made for a perfect Star Trek series. But there was never that sense throughout the show, this honestly felt like just another Federation starship to me.

 

[Lynx]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

But maybe it was their way to cope with a hopeless situation?

I mean, there have been people who have worked in dreadful places who have kept the spirit up by twisted jokes and weird humor. Maybe many of the crewmembers on Voyager just did the same. Tom Paris definitely seem to be that kind of person with his jokes and funny comments.

Basically BSG and Voyager were opposite ends of the spectrum. The Voyager crew seemed to be having a bit too much fun, yet the BSG lot barely cracked a smile. Gallows humour will always exist in the worst situations (the 'Blitz spirit' if you like), so somewhere there's a happy medium.

I guess that it was one of the reasons why I never liked BSG. Not a smile, everyone acted as if they were on some funeral and everything was so serious.

On the contrary to series like Voyager and NCIS. The old Lynx need a twisted joke and a good laugh now and then.

 

[kimc]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

^ I know there was a lot of notice taken on the fact that Galactica looked more and more beat-up as the series progressed. In a universe where there are no space stations (at least any accessible to the fleet) or other aliens to trade with then that makes total sense.

However, in the Trek universe the premise is that the galaxy is a fairly crowded place. It makes sense that Voyager would be able to visit a space station and trade for repairs/resources or set down on a planet and gather whatever raw resources they need.

I know there were at least one or two episodes where Voyager was shown at a space station but it would have made some sense to have one of those episodes refer to "we're here because we got the snot beat out of us last week".

While there was some attempt at that in the earlier seasons (IE, in "Resistance" they were looking for a resource that they had mentioned being low on in the previous episode) for the most part they were only at a space station if the story called for it. If there was damage to the ship you had to assume everything was somehow fixed the following week via a space station rest stop, etc.

 

[angel]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

The colour of the warp nacelles is very important, it has to be blue! You can't have green nacelles, that's physically impossible!!!

The damage would have been more than an aesthetic change, it would have involved a tonal shift in how the show is presented. It is hard to take the premise that this is a crew in a dangerous situation seriously when they have a magic ship which is never damaged. Increasing the damage heightens the sense of danger and makes us root for the characters more.

Voyager had a great opportunity to put a group of humans in real danger and have them display stoicism in the face of constant peril. Having the crew pull together and display the better sides of their nature even under the constant threat of danger, it would have made for a perfect Star Trek series. But there was never that sense throughout the show, this honestly felt like just another Federation starship to me.

if you hate it that much then why are you watching it again??? or are you just trying to wind the voyager fans up ? ... if i hated a show so much i simply wouldnt watch it- end of . full stop

i enjoyed voyager :-)