Pon Farr, and reproducing Vulcan Culture/ P.F. and Surviving Vulcans

[Miss Chicken]

Re: Pon Farr, and reproducing Vulcan Culture/ P.F. and Surviving Vulca

I don't think the following has been brought up

Vulcans are longer lived than humans. Even if they only have a child every 7 years each couple could easily have 6 or more children. Population growth is naturally going to be slower than that of humans but does that matter as much to a long-lived race? Vulcans could probably double their population every 35-42 years. which would mean that in less than a Vulcan's lifetime the population could go from 10,000 to over 500,000.

 

[kythe]

Re: Pon Farr, and reproducing Vulcan Culture/ P.F. and Surviving Vulca

I don't think the following has been brought up

Vulcans are longer lived than humans. Even if they only have a child every 7 years each couple could easily have 6 or more children. Population growth is naturally going to be slower than that of humans but does that matter as much to a long-lived race? Vulcans could probably double their population every 35-42 years. which would mean that in less than a Vulcan's lifetime the population could go from 10,000 to over 500,000.

Thank you. I tried to bring this up earlier, but you did a little more math.

Basically, I don't see why Vulcans would need to rush to rebuild their population. What's the hurry? It will happen in due time, they live longer than we do and have more time. Reproducing every 7 years doesn't mean they have fewer children, especially considering that their childbearing years may span over a hundred years.

 

[Captain Fine]

Re: Pon Farr, and reproducing Vulcan Culture/ P.F. and Surviving Vulca

I still don't get this pon farr business. Are we really meant to believe that Vulcans can ONLY reproduce every 7 years? I can understand HAVING to have SEX at LEAST once every 7 years, but to only be able to do it that often, I find hard to believe. Vulcans aren't animals. And Romulans have never mentioned a "pon farr", so I think pon farr is more a cultural hing.

And I still don't see the 10,000 thing as that big a deal. The only thing the current Vulcans need to preserve is their culture, as unification would bring about all the genetic diversity they'd ever need.

 

[Islander]

Re: Pon Farr, and reproducing Vulcan Culture/ P.F. and Surviving Vulca

The only problem with the unification idea is that Romulan wouldn't give a shit about Vulcans or the Federation.

 

[Overgeeked]

Re: Pon Farr, and reproducing Vulcan Culture/ P.F. and Surviving Vulca

I still don't get this pon farr business. Are we really meant to believe that Vulcans can ONLY reproduce every 7 years? I can understand HAVING to have SEX at LEAST once every 7 years, but to only be able to do it that often, I find hard to believe. Vulcans aren't animals. And Romulans have never mentioned a "pon farr", so I think pon farr is more a cultural hing.

Pon Farr is a biological cycle that happens every 7 years. Vulcans have to mate during Pon Farr or die. It's not the only time they can mate.

And I still don't see the 10,000 thing as that big a deal. The only thing the current Vulcans need to preserve is their culture, as unification would bring about all the genetic diversity they'd ever need.

Reunification won't happen. The Fed would never stand for a Romulan presence within spitting distance of Earth. Think of the Cuba Missile Crisis.

I think TOS Vulcans were interesting but, the spin-offs didn't get them right. Besides Sarek and Spock, T'Pau and T'Pring were interesting, as was the original Surak from TOS.

For me, Vulcans were interesting when they were supposed to be inherently less emotional than humans - with Spock, of course, being the one in a tough position because he had human emotions that he had to repress. The cold, regal, arrogant, logical, calculating Vulcans of TOS were fascinating and mysterious. Because they were so different than humans they offered us an interesting contrast to ourselves. The spin-offs "humanized" the Vulcans by making them have more powerful emotions than humans that were simply controlled. TOS Vulcans and humans didn't understand eachother very well. The Spin-off Vulcans had the same range of emotions that humans had so, they did understand humans but, simply would not admit it. The appeal of TOS Vulcans lay in that they were very different than humans mentally and emotionally by both nature and nurture.

In the TOS episode "Savage Curtain" (3x22), Spock and Surak explain that Vulcans are more emotional, and that logic is the only thing that saved them. The spin offs kept this view of the Vulcans (except ENT, which explained it away in season 4).

I'm a Vulcan addict, so I know what you mean, but, for me, the appeal was in their philosophy and reason.

I don't think the following has been brought up

Vulcans are longer lived than humans. Even if they only have a child every 7 years each couple could easily have 6 or more children. Population growth is naturally going to be slower than that of humans but does that matter as much to a long-lived race? Vulcans could probably double their population every 35-42 years. which would mean that in less than a Vulcan's lifetime the population could go from 10,000 to over 500,000.

Thank you. I tried to bring this up earlier, but you did a little more math.

Basically, I don't see why Vulcans would need to rush to rebuild their population. What's the hurry? It will happen in due time, they live longer than we do and have more time. Reproducing every 7 years doesn't mean they have fewer children, especially considering that their childbearing years may span over a hundred years.

They can breed as fast as their bodies will allow (don't know length of Vulcan gestation). But they can breed more than just during Pon Farr. The major issue with 10,000 members of a species left and extinction is genetic diversity. Which is why so many have theorized reunification (at least on some level) with Romulans to provide a wider genetic base. Really bad things happen to genetically strangled species. A single powerful virus could wipe them all out, etc.

 

[kythe]

Re: Pon Farr, and reproducing Vulcan Culture/ P.F. and Surviving Vulca

I still don't get this pon farr business. Are we really meant to believe that Vulcans can ONLY reproduce every 7 years? I can understand HAVING to have SEX at LEAST once every 7 years, but to only be able to do it that often, I find hard to believe. Vulcans aren't animals. And Romulans have never mentioned a "pon farr", so I think pon farr is more a cultural hing.

Pon Farr is a biological cycle that happens every 7 years. Vulcans have to mate during Pon Farr or die. It's not the only time they can mate.

It has never been established that Romulans have Pon Farr, but I believe they do. Pon Farr is biological, and Romulans are not far removed from Vulcans. We haven't seen any Romulan main characters, so there has been no need to bring up how they handle this issue in any episode where we have seen Romulans.

They can breed as fast as their bodies will allow (don't know length of Vulcan gestation). But they can breed more than just during Pon Farr. The major issue with 10,000 members of a species left and extinction is genetic diversity. Which is why so many have theorized reunification (at least on some level) with Romulans to provide a wider genetic base. Really bad things happen to genetically strangled species. A single powerful virus could wipe them all out, etc.

Good points. A single disease or natural disaster could wipe them all out if most are in the same place, such as Spock's colony. Maybe this is why Spock referred to himself as a member of an endangered species.

But wasn't Romulus also destroyed in this timeline, or is about to be by a supernova? (This time travel stuff makes me dizzy ). This puts Romulans in the same position since there are few of them as well. Since they don't have the Federation to lean on like the Vulcans do, they may have a much greater motivation for reunification.

 

[Lt. Trull]

Re: Pon Farr, and reproducing Vulcan Culture/ P.F. and Surviving Vulca

logically... arranged marrages to maximixe the diversity of the stock.

 

[USS Triumphant]

Re: Pon Farr, and reproducing Vulcan Culture/ P.F. and Surviving Vulca

But wasn't Romulus also destroyed in this timeline, or is about to be by a supernova? (This time travel stuff makes me dizzy ).

They've got 129 years before that happens, and a Spock Prime that (hopefully) knows how to stop it this time, anyway.

 

[Lt. Trull]

Re: Pon Farr, and reproducing Vulcan Culture/ P.F. and Surviving Vulca

128 years 364 days later... a romulan couple are chatting at breakfast...

wife: Did you hear of that vulcan prophet that said our star was going supernova
husband: vulcan prophets... I dont believe in vulcan prophets...
wife: I was just wondering...

 

[Feofilakt]

Re: Pon Farr, and reproducing Vulcan Culture/ P.F. and Surviving Vulca

Realistically? They are the walking dead in evolutionary terms when one takes into account the various competing sentient species in the galaxy, whose numbers range from 3-4 billion to the hundreds of billions. Going from 6 billion+ and an incredible amount of genetic diversity to ten thousand is a severe bottleneck and will likely render them non competitive with the other species. They may have enough individuals for a modest replacement over time, but if their spirit was broken enough and their livelihood gone they may end up extinct due to people simply not reproducing.

Also take into account that female reproduction is self limiting and the primary mechanism of limiting population among animals with lengthy gestation and care cycles. Assuming a similar ratio of male:females in comparison to humans, they have a long ways to go before they are even a quarter of their original population.

My conclusion: They will eventually become out bred and extinct if the movie was to actually take into account the evidence at hand (biological, anthropological, historical). Going from 6 billion + to ten thousand is a very big deal in an environment with species that outnumber you so dramatically.

 

[Overgeeked]

Re: Pon Farr, and reproducing Vulcan Culture/ P.F. and Surviving Vulca

logically... arranged marrages to maximixe the diversity of the stock.

Most logical.

It has never been established that Romulans have Pon Farr, but I believe they do. Pon Farr is biological, and Romulans are not far removed from Vulcans. We haven't seen any Romulan main characters, so there has been no need to bring up how they handle this issue in any episode where we have seen Romulans.

The Vulcan / Romulan split occurred roughly 2000 years before the events of this film (ST11). I don't know enough about genetics to know if that's enough generations to evolve past Pon Farr. I would assume not.

Good points. A single disease or natural disaster could wipe them all out if most are in the same place, such as Spock's colony. Maybe this is why Spock referred to himself as a member of an endangered species.

These points are also why it is illogical to assume that this is the first Vulcan colony, and equally illogical that somehow only 10,000 Vulcans survived of the entire species. A logical species would diversify rather than stagnate on a single planet. They've been a space-faring race for over 2000 years (at least), we've been in space barely 50 years and there's already real scientists making real plans (or theories) as to how we could colonize the moon and Mars.

But wasn't Romulus also destroyed in this timeline, or is about to be by a supernova? (This time travel stuff makes me dizzy ). This puts Romulans in the same position since there are few of them as well. Since they don't have the Federation to lean on like the Vulcans do, they may have a much greater motivation for reunification.

No. They are alternate timelines. Check out "Back to the Future" and Doc Brown's explanation of time travel. Only instead of a skewed timeline that must be fixed (as in all the other Trek iterations), this one created a whole new universe to have fun in. Nothing is predetermined to happen.

 

[Jeri]

Re: Pon Farr, and reproducing Vulcan Culture/ P.F. and Surviving Vulca

During one of Earth's extinctions, it's been estimated there were only 10,000 human beings remaining. It's not a severe bottleneck; but it does take a while to get back.

 

[Feofilakt]

Re: Pon Farr, and reproducing Vulcan Culture/ P.F. and Surviving Vulca

These points are also why it is illogical to assume that this is the first Vulcan colony, and equally illogical that somehow only 10,000 Vulcans survived of the entire species. A logical species would diversify rather than stagnate on a single planet. They've been a space-faring race for over 2000 years (at least), we've been in space barely 50 years and there's already real scientists making real plans (or theories) as to how we could colonize the moon and Mars.

No, you are absolutely correct and this would be true if the movie was well written. Sadly, it is not.

It was really just a heavy handed attempt to make them space Jews, which I find really offensive. Why can't we have portrayals of the Jews that don't involve large quantities of us getting slaughtered?

 

[Matt4511]

Re: Pon Farr, and reproducing Vulcan Culture/ P.F. and Surviving Vulca

Obviously, we'll find out in the next movie, or whenever Bob Orci gets asked on TrekMovie...

...but in the meantime, for what it's worth, my own sense is that the 10,000 that Spock referenced were the ones who fled the planet Vulcan during the attack, and that there are other Vulcans out there. Starfleet officers, merchant crews, scientific expeditions, diplomatic staff on various planets, traveling professionals, etc, etc. This number can be as big or as small as the writers choose to make it. Since we don't know much about migration patterns in the Trekverse, it could range from the low thousands to the many millions.

I also believe that there must be Vulcan colonies and outposts. As above, however, there's no way of guessing whether or not these extra-Vulcan Vulcans number just a few of if there are millions upon millions of ex-pat Vulcans living on other UFP worlds and colonies.

Spock's selection of a colony could be a pristine planet to serve as a new homeworld for the Vulcans, in a cultural sense, if not literal. The 10,000 refugees could be relocated there and given the full resources of the Federation to build their new world. Some Vulcans could relocate from across the UFP to settle there and commit themselves to building a New Vulcan, but I'd imagine the "eggs in one basket" concern would actually probably limit any influx to the new planet.

Except, possibly, for the purposes of mating. I'm sure the Vulcans will very quickly begin organized breeding programs to maximize the genetic vitality of their race. It would be, no pun intended, only logical. So I guess you have to count me in with those here who believe that Vulcans have sex for pleasure/pair bonding and can reproduce at will, but are COMPELLED by their biological urges to do so every seven years.

 

[Jeri]

Re: Pon Farr, and reproducing Vulcan Culture/ P.F. and Surviving Vulca

It was really just a heavy handed attempt to make them space Jews, which I find really offensive. Why can't we have portrayals of the Jews that don't involve large quantities of us getting slaughtered?

What?

 

[Feofilakt]

Re: Pon Farr, and reproducing Vulcan Culture/ P.F. and Surviving Vulca

During one of Earth's extinctions, it's been estimated there were only 10,000 human beings remaining. It's not a severe bottleneck; but it does take a while to get back.

Ten thousand humans where there were once maybe a couple million max? Not as catastrophic, but the real problem is that nobody else was really competing for their ecological niche. Other hominids, sure, but the numbers were not nearly as overwhelming because, assuming an extinction event it would be a regional or global extinction event. Meaning whatever hominids out there were facing similar circumstances. It was natural, just part of the evolutionary process.

Not so in this case. The Vulcans are now a very small group in the ecological niche called "The Milky Way" with a whole slew of competing sentient species that now dramatically outnumber them. Keep in mind that ten thousand individuals is considered the bare minimum for a sexually reproducing species with our reproductive scheme. The Vulcans are simply not competitive and will die out.

 

[Jeri]

Re: Pon Farr, and reproducing Vulcan Culture/ P.F. and Surviving Vulca

...The Vulcans are now a very small group in the ecological niche called "The Milky Way" with a whole slew of competing sentient species that now dramatically outnumber them. Keep in mind that ten thousand individuals is considered the bare minimum for a sexually reproducing species with our reproductive scheme. The Vulcans are simply not competitive and will die out.

Ten thousand is enough for either; ten thousand is plenty for a species with high intelligence, high technology, high drive and lots of friends.

It won't be a problem; were it one, Spock wouldn't bother with a new planet. They have plans, and I'm looking forward to them.

 

[Matt4511]

Re: Pon Farr, and reproducing Vulcan Culture/ P.F. and Surviving Vulca

The Vulcans are now a very small group in the ecological niche called "The Milky Way" with a whole slew of competing sentient species that now dramatically outnumber them. Keep in mind that ten thousand individuals is considered the bare minimum for a sexually reproducing species with our reproductive scheme. The Vulcans are simply not competitive and will die out.

You don't think that belonging to a militarily powerful alliance such as the UFP, with pretty planets to spare and fleets to guard it, might impact the tiniest bit on natural selection? If the Vulcans choose to isolate themselves on this new colony and bang constantly until they get their population back up, I'm sure the honourable and mighty United Federation of Planets will provide them with everything they need to thrive for as long as they need it.

One of the founding members, a peaceful and generous people, deserve no less.

I'm sure that the people of Earth, in particular, will recall Vulcan's help post-WW3 and will go to every extreme possible to repay the debt.

 

[Feofilakt]

Re: Pon Farr, and reproducing Vulcan Culture/ P.F. and Surviving Vulca

The Vulcans are now a very small group in the ecological niche called "The Milky Way" with a whole slew of competing sentient species that now dramatically outnumber them. Keep in mind that ten thousand individuals is considered the bare minimum for a sexually reproducing species with our reproductive scheme. The Vulcans are simply not competitive and will die out.

You don't think that belonging to a militarily powerful alliance such as the UFP, with pretty planets to spare and fleets to guard it, might impact the tiniest bit on natural selection? If the Vulcans choose to isolate themselves on this new colony and bang constantly until they get their population back up, I'm sure the honourable and mighty United Federation of Planets will provide them with everything they need to thrive for as long as they need it.

One of the founding members, a peaceful and generous people, deserve no less.

I'm sure that the people of Earth, in particular, will recall Vulcan's help post-WW3 and will go to every extreme possible to repay the debt.

No doubt they will do their best with what they have, it's just the long term projection is a bit dim for both the Federation and the Vulcans. I already discussed the possible fate of the Federation in another thread (just search my posts), and that in conjunction with the critical shortage of Vulcans is what I am basing my conclusion on.

 

[maryh]

Re: Pon Farr, and reproducing Vulcan Culture/ P.F. and Surviving Vulca

In the TOS episode "Savage Curtain" (3x22), Spock and Surak explain that Vulcans are more emotional, and that logic is the only thing that saved them. The spin offs kept this view of the Vulcans (except ENT, which explained it away in season 4).

I'm a Vulcan addict, so I know what you mean, but, for me, the appeal was in their philosophy and reason.

But the "Savage Curtain" was followed by "All Our Yesterdays" which displayed that Vulcans had become by nature less passionate over the centuries. Some find that hard to accept. However, as I walk my Cocker Spaniel I see how inbred an instinctive their behavior is to chase birds. That was not innate but developed because of breeding and training until it becomes part of their nature. This is the way I pictured the TOS Vulcans. Those were the alluring, interesting ones. A pacifistic philosophy is nice, but not that rare. Many Earth cultures, philosophies and religions subscribe to these ideas, Same with the Vulcan mysticism. Lots of New Age crap out there too. But it was the Vulcan cool logic and weaker emotions, mental disciplines, and contrast to humaness that was really interesting.

And now we have an emotional Spock caught up in a romantic relationship. And the result -- lots of threads on other boards about "Spock and Uhrua's wedding", "Is Tuvok Spock and Uhura's baby?", "A Love Triangle between Kirk/Spock/Uhura or Spock/Uhura/Chapel"? BARF.

Liked when Trek was about "exploring new worlds..........." Long for the days of logical, cool Vulcans.