Chivalry: It's dead, Jim.

[Rii]

And I'll remind you again to leave the accusatory tone out.

Sorry, I was composing when you entered that post. Takes me a while to work through all those quote tags.

 

[Colonel Green]

I would never imply something so one-sided.

Maybe you haven't realized yet, but I usually don't "take sides" in these sorts of debates. My participation is usually limited to pointing out why the views at both extreme ends are wrong.

I just get annoyed when an otherwise productive thread gets derailed with an argument that doesn't need to exist. Get a bit snippy because of it.

And when you get snippy you take sides?

 

[Tiberius Jim]

I had a feeling that starting this thread would incite controversy but this is honestly to a level I never expected.

For the record, I didn't start the thread to stroke my ego or give myself a pat on the back for being polite. I started it to create a discussion and get different points of view out in the open. If I was shooting for a "masturbatory thread" wouldn't it have read more like:

"So this is what happened just now. I was sitting, and a girl got on the train. She was so cute! So I stood up and offered my seat! Man, I hope I get to do her! Ain't I awesome?!"

Except...this thread didn't start like that. It was brought on by an observation I made today in combination with observations I've made the entire time I've been taking BART to school. Why you guys dont believe me/comprehend me when I say this, I don't understand, but I do not offer my seat or stand when seats are available for personal reasons. If I'm standing when a woman gets on the train, how is she going to know that *I* personally chose not to occupy that seat? I'm simply acknowledging that I am an able bodied 23 year old guy and those seats are going to be better used by someone who needs them, or by a lady. It also eliminates the awkwardness of having to move my things and get out of the seat so that someone else can sit down. So for those thinking I do it to "get a piece" or to make myself feel good, you're wrong. Most of the time I don't even take a seat to begin with.

I don't base it on appearance. I've offered my seat to women in their 40's, 50's and some that were in my age range haven't always been anyone I find myself attracted to. There's no ulterior motive, there's no catch, no reason other than it's how I've been raised and it's the polite and gentlemanly thing to do.

I expected to find some dissenting viewpoints on this topic but I never expected to be made into the bad guy for advocating that people should be polite and have a little old fashioned class. I expected some arguments, but this is just ridiculous.

 

[Freakness]

I'm simply acknowledging that I am an able bodied 23 year old guy and those seats are going to be better used by someone who needs them, or by a lady.

this is the problem. "a lady" isn't going to use the seat any better than you just because she's a lady. if you can stand, she can stand too. she doesn't deserve the seat more than you do simply because she has a vagina.

 

[Hoser]

"a lady" isn't going to use the seat any better than you just because she's a lady.

Sure she can. Ladies do everything better than men. That's just the essence of being a lady.

 

[Hermiod]

And I'll remind you again to leave the accusatory tone out.

The one you've used since you joined in you mean ?

Name six.

I can't do that because you just used up the best three:

Bingo. Doing things such as giving up one's seat for her or fetching things for her shows her that you can provide for her and her offspring. If you really look into them, you'll note that a lot of the things that used to be termed "being a gentleman" are symbolic of being a provider or protector. Take the act of placing one's coat in a mud puddle for her to walk on. In doing this, you are protecting her from the mud. By pulling out her chair, you are providing the chair. Etc.

There's nothing "self-serving" about the arguments from people who disagree with Flux. The only self-service is coming from Flux and the people who agree with him.

And as kimc and An Officer suggested earlier on, if the only reason for doing it is because it's a "sexy" gesture, then what difference does it make if us less attractive people give up our seats ?

I think you've missed the point I was trying to make. Attractiveness is about much more than physical appearance. The language you use and the way you treat others counts as a lot. I know that may not seem fair (after all why can't everyone just be treated equally all the time) but like it or not that's just the way the world works. People make judgements about you in public and treat you accordingly based on not just your dress and personal hygiene but on the non-physical traits I've already mentioned. Neither of us have any control over that.

This is another discussion for another day, but the first measure of a person's attractiveness is their physical appearance. People react differently to the same behaviour from others based what the person exhibiting it looks like. They pretend that they don't because they don't want to be seen as shallow, and if you ask them they'll answer the same way.

So, you didn't answer my question. Giving up my seat is not, despite the nonsense Captain Ice posted above, going to help me strike up a conversation or do me any favours whatsoever so why would I do it ?

"a lady" isn't going to use the seat any better than you just because she's a lady.

Sure she can. Ladies do everything better than men. That's just the essence of being a lady.

 

[Tiberius Jim]

I'm simply acknowledging that I am an able bodied 23 year old guy and those seats are going to be better used by someone who needs them, or by a lady.

this is the problem. "a lady" isn't going to use the seat any better than you just because she's a lady. if you can stand, she can stand too. she doesn't deserve the seat more than you do simply because she has a vagina.

Jesus Christ.

When the fuck did this become about what someone deserves or doesn't deserve? It's about doing something just because it's NICE and is the right thing to do.

God damn.

 

[Rii]

I'm simply acknowledging that I am an able bodied 23 year old guy and those seats are going to be better used by someone who needs them, or by a lady.

this is the problem. "a lady" isn't going to use the seat any better than you just because she's a lady. if you can stand, she can stand too. she doesn't deserve the seat more than you do simply because she has a vagina.

Jesus Christ.

When the fuck did this become about what someone deserves or doesn't deserve? It's about doing something just because it's NICE and is the right thing to do.

God damn.

So how often are you "nice" to young able-bodied men such as yourself?

 

[Tiberius Jim]

I believe we've already covered that. I see no need to repeat myself when you could just read the thread.

 

[Tim]

You wander into the right field bleachers at Yankee Stadium with Red Sox gear on, though...that's another story.

Those seats are probably empty anyway.

 

[Daedalus12]

So am I alone here? Is it no longer seen as the right thing to do to give up a seat for a woman? Or is it politically incorrect and am I somehow implying that women are "too weak" to stand up on a train? Is that why these guys don't give their seats; a fear of offending someone? Or are they just lazy and inconsiderate?

I don't ride trains that often but I do open the doors for ladies. So no you are not alone.

 

[Freakness]

When the fuck did this become about what someone deserves or doesn't deserve? It's about doing something just because it's NICE and is the right thing to do.

it's NOT the right thing to do unless giving your seat up to a random guy is ALSO the right thing to do. it's the double-standard we're all objecting to. it IS nice, but why aren't you equally nice to men?

 

[Rii]

I believe we've already covered that. I see no need to repeat myself when you could just read the thread.

Right, you're unable to justify your behaviour on the basis of anything other than "tradition", and you refuse to acknowledge either the roots of that tradition or the role your behaviour plays in perpetuating patriarchy at the expense of women's rights in society. Gotcha.

I think I see some women over there trying to vote, perhaps you should remind them of "tradition".

 

[Hermiod]

it's NOT the right thing to do unless giving your seat up to a random guy is ALSO the right thing to do. it's the double-standard we're all objecting to. it IS nice, but why aren't you equally nice to men?

I've been waiting for an answer to that that makes sense since page one.

I don't ride trains that often but I do open the doors for ladies. So no you are not alone.

And you wouldn't for a man ? If not, why not ? That's the gist of this thread.

 

[Tiberius Jim]

I believe we've already covered that. I see no need to repeat myself when you could just read the thread.

Right, you're unable to justify your behaviour on the basis of anything other than "tradition", and you refuse to acknowledge either the roots of that tradition or the role your behaviour plays in perpetuating patriarchy at the expense of women's rights in society. Gotcha.

I think I see some women over there trying to vote, perhaps you should remind them of "tradition".

Are you kidding me? Me wanting to offer my seat to a woman is the same as keeping them from voting?

Are you fucking kidding me?

 

[TheBrew]

Holy shit, some of you people take this shit waaaay too seriously. I mean, I'm trying to learn a language in 12 hours and I am less worked up than a few people here. There is really no need to be so hostile... and the "he did it first" argument doesn't fly.

 

[Hermiod]

Are you kidding me? Me wanting to offer my seat to a woman is the same as keeping them from voting?

Are you fucking kidding me?

The two things are fruit from the same tree. You're treating them as dainty little flowers that need to be wrapped up in cotton wool to protect them from the world.

That's the same patronising attitude that makes people think they shouldn't be able to vote.

 

[Captain Ice]

And I'll remind you again to leave the accusatory tone out.

The one you've used since you joined in you mean ?

No. I'm referring to the one he jumped into this thread with. Which is about the same one as you are using now.

And since when is being sociable and open nonsense?

 

[Tiberius Jim]

Are you kidding me? Me wanting to offer my seat to a woman is the same as keeping them from voting?

Are you fucking kidding me?

The two things are fruit from the same tree. You're treating them as dainty little flowers that need to be wrapped up in cotton wool to protect them from the world.

That's the same patronising attitude that makes people think they shouldn't be able to vote.

That is insane! I'm not trying to protect them from anything. I'm offering them a fucking SEAT.

I'm in awe. I really am.

 

[Captain Ice]

Are you kidding me? Me wanting to offer my seat to a woman is the same as keeping them from voting?

Are you fucking kidding me?

The two things are fruit from the same tree. You're treating them as dainty little flowers that need to be wrapped up in cotton wool to protect them from the world.

That's the same patronising attitude that makes people think they shouldn't be able to vote.

That's a hell of a large leap in logic.