We Bitched & Moaned About Berman, But Abrams Just As Bad In A Way?

[Stone_Cold_Sisko]

Except that the people like this new movie... so... uh... yeah, that's the difference.

 

[CommanderRaytas]

Sure, but Star Trek is now mainstream and cool! Yippi!

Uh, pretty sure that what Gene, Bennett, Berman, JJ ,Paramount, Desilu, NBC and any one involved with the show and the films always wanted. Creating a niche show for a niche market with diminishing returns was never the idea.

I have a feeling you might be onto something here.

 

[Brutal Strudel]

Berman was accused of messing with canon, allowing sloppy writing, reusing old story lines, making Star Trek boring. Well, Abrams certainly hasn't made it boring, but he (and his writing buddies) sure messed with canon. And they did some pretty sloppy writing and reused the worn out time travel trick (as well as falling back on the Romulans as the bad guys).

Don't get me wrong, I liked the movie, but we demonized Berman for much of what Abrams has just done.

Bermaga's sin wasn't really any of that, though, and I said as much at the time. Their sin was that they bored us. This movie--for all its sins against the intellect (and they are legion)--did not bore us and so we forgive it.

 

[Stone_Cold_Sisko]

Berman was accused of messing with canon, allowing sloppy writing, reusing old story lines, making Star Trek boring. Well, Abrams certainly hasn't made it boring, but he (and his writing buddies) sure messed with canon. And they did some pretty sloppy writing and reused the worn out time travel trick (as well as falling back on the Romulans as the bad guys).

Don't get me wrong, I liked the movie, but we demonized Berman for much of what Abrams has just done.

Bermaga's sin wasn't really any of that, though, and I said as much at the time. Their sin was that they bored us. This movie--for all its sins against the intellect (and they are legion)--did not bore us and so we forgive it.

exactly.

Hell we're talking about a guy who MANDATED that aliens couldn't look too alien. Here's a guy who INSISTED that music had to be as dull as possible to not distract the viewer. A guy who REFUSED to allow any lasting conflict between main characters.

In the first five minutes of ST alone you can see little details that Berman's Mandate of Homogenization would never have allowed. The way that the Kelvin seems so busy with all the chatter? the way the music cut out to operatic music only during the Kelvin's last stand? The music itself? The way the sound went out when that girl got sucked out of the Kelvin into space.

Berman would simply not allow any of that. It's like the man was worried that the audience as all in the retirement home and would die of a heart attack.

Berman is the perfect example of how things go wrong when you have someone who isn't creative at all be in charge of creative. At least people like Douglas Netter and David Eick (mostly) had the good sense to get the F out of the way of their creative collaborator when it came to creative stuff.

There isn't even a comparison between the two.

 

[candle_86]

Berman was accused of messing with canon, allowing sloppy writing, reusing old story lines, making Star Trek boring. Well, Abrams certainly hasn't made it boring, but he (and his writing buddies) sure messed with canon. And they did some pretty sloppy writing and reused the worn out time travel trick (as well as falling back on the Romulans as the bad guys).

Don't get me wrong, I liked the movie, but we demonized Berman for much of what Abrams has just done.

But BERMAN's attempt (Enterprise) didn't work because he tried to fit it in with the continuity...

And again? It doesn't matter what YOU or I think...because they really don't care (they being JJ and PARAMOUNT) They set out to reignite TREK's popularity. And if it caused TREK nerds to flip out and go crazy because of continuity this or that? THEN that is what they want, and thank God, that is what they are getting...

Threads like this complaining about continuity are just useless and, in the grand scheme of things, proof that TREK fans, some of them, need to get lives...and women (and or men)

Rob

Berman wasn't terrible iI've seen worse than him with other shows, and why Enterprise and Voyager felt lackluster early on, Voyager reall picked up after Scorpion, and Enterprise in Season 2 started to pick up, once the Temporal Cold War came into being, the show really got going and you missed something great.

As for his movies, Generations wasn't the best, but I did enjoy it and still do, It told a good story and it did what i needed to do, put an end to the Enterprise D, end the Duras story line all the loose ends All Good Things didn't do. It also let us see Kirk one more time, and gave us the Shatverse which I do enjoy alot.

No one can argue First Contact was horrid, some may not like it alot, but First Contact did very well in theaters, I know many people who only ever saw First Contact, and they loved it.

Insurrection was good as well, I have always enjoyed the story, and I never understood the hatred, yes its very cerebral and really calls many things about humanity and friendship into the spot light and it think it makes to many uncomfortable but it was a great movie.

Nemesis though, well I watched it before, that was my only gripe it tried to hard to copy WoK and that was my only gripe, if WoK hadn't been made think of this would Nemesis have been more popular, you bet it would have been, they just tried to capture that movie again.

Now Star Trek XI what can be said here, as Star Trek it blows chuncks and as a general SciFi movie its sitll lack luster. I have the same gripes with this about Nemesis, it feels alot like Wrath of Khan again. A villian with a great starting advantage, supprises everyone, wants to see those that wronged him dead, yea its Wrath of Khan in a new universe actullly. Then after coping story they then destroyed Cannon, look away the need to use your brain to understand it, removed science totally from it, and said screw you 40 years of lore. Everything was rewritten from time travel to personality. Nothing fits with the real Trek. A reboot is fine if they do a good job and its needed, but saying we needed excitment is not a reason to reboot.

Take these same actors put them on another ship set in the early 25th Century, same plot, same bridge and I would have liked it about the same as Nemesis and the new crowd would have seen it also. And they did fail I know plenty of folks who look at Star Trek as a taboo who still don't want to see it, because they know Kirk and Spock, those names are part of the taboo issue, if they had set it the 25th century and called it The Wrath of Nero it would have raised more interest and left the trekkies happy.

 

[Cdr MacDuff]

Sure, but Star Trek is now mainstream and cool! Yippi!

Uh, pretty sure that what Gene, Bennett, Berman, JJ ,Paramount, Desilu, NBC and any one involved with the show and the films always wanted. Creating a niche show for a niche market with diminishing returns was never the idea.

I don't think you're being fair at all. Berman did provide Star Trek with intelligent sci-fi adventure. IMO, Enterprise was not as good, but TNG, Voyager and DS9 were truly great shows.

As for the movie, he was undoubtedly pressurized to make it more appealing for the lowest common denominator by the studios. I think he tried to find the middle ground, but didn't do a good job.

The new Trek was a good movie. But, its harder to create an intelligent Sci-fi movie such as Gattaca or 12 Monkeys than an action summer blockbuster. Even if both type of movie can be enjoyable.

I don't know what movie or TV program you watched lately, but not all movie or TV series are done for the mainstream market. There's still many movies which have a lower budget and less action or CGI, but which have good stories and I would guess make some profit.

 

[Dale]

Ask me again in 20 years. If JJ's made a hackneyed mess of his Trek the way the old (mid-range, maybe) guard did theirs, I'll dump on him, too.

 

[Carpe Occasio]

Berman was accused of messing with canon, allowing sloppy writing, reusing old story lines, making Star Trek boring. Well, Abrams certainly hasn't made it boring, but he (and his writing buddies) sure messed with canon. And they did some pretty sloppy writing and reused the worn out time travel trick (as well as falling back on the Romulans as the bad guys).

Don't get me wrong, I liked the movie, but we demonized Berman for much of what Abrams has just done.

Bermaga's sin wasn't really any of that, though, and I said as much at the time. Their sin was that they bored us. This movie--for all its sins against the intellect (and they are legion)--did not bore us and so we forgive it.

exactly.

Hell we're talking about a guy who MANDATED that aliens couldn't look too alien. Here's a guy who INSISTED that music had to be as dull as possible to not distract the viewer. A guy who REFUSED to allow any lasting conflict between main characters.

In the first five minutes of ST alone you can see little details that Berman's Mandate of Homogenization would never have allowed. The way that the Kelvin seems so busy with all the chatter? the way the music cut out to operatic music only during the Kelvin's last stand? The music itself? The way the sound went out when that girl got sucked out of the Kelvin into space.

Berman would simply not allow any of that. It's like the man was worried that the audience as all in the retirement home and would die of a heart attack.

Berman is the perfect example of how things go wrong when you have someone who isn't creative at all be in charge of creative. At least people like Douglas Netter and David Eick (mostly) had the good sense to get the F out of the way of their creative collaborator when it came to creative stuff.

There isn't even a comparison between the two.

Are you serious about Berman? You know this for a fact?

 

[Alexis]

Berman was the captain of a sinking ship and he didn't do anything to try and save it.

Abrams was then given command and not only has the hold been patched, but the water has been pumped out and everyone wants to ride on it.

Brilliant analogy!

 

[Cdr MacDuff]

Berman was the captain of a sinking ship and he didn't do anything to try and save it.

Abrams was then given command and not only has the hold been patched, but the water has been pumped out and everyone wants to ride on it.

Brilliant analogy!

Some could say he just brought a new ship and put the name of the old one on it to attract the people's attention.

 

[barnaclelapse]

I don't even think I'm prepared to say Abrams saved the franchise. He's given one hell of a good shot in the arm, but time will tell if that can keep the whole thing going. It's not going to magically happen overnight. It's going to be an ongoing with him and others leading the way.

Good point. This could be a flash in the pan. It could burn itself out by the time a sequel comes around (but I doubt it).

I somewhat doubt it as well, but it's not outside the realm of possibility.

I mean, I don't remember a lot of people predicting the second and third Matrix films would sink the franchise at about a hundred and seventy-five thousand miles per hour.

I'm not necessarily saying that because that happened with The Matrix that it's going to happen with Star Trek, I'm just saying that there's no guarantees. Believe me, I'm thrilled that Star Trek is doing so well right now, and I sincerely hope it keeps going that way for a good few more years.

 

[Balrog]

No.

Most people bitched and moaned about how Berman never pushed the envelope creatively, keeping a show made in 1987 basically stagnant for 18 years. People complained that a TNG movie expereince was about as thrilling as a big, two-hour TV movie as far as look, scope and storytelling. Hardcore fans might have liked it and could even defend it. But the mass audience turned away in large numbers because Berman Trek was rather boring.

 

[Eric Cheung]

Hell we're talking about a guy who MANDATED that aliens couldn't look too alien. Here's a guy who INSISTED that music had to be as dull as possible to not distract the viewer. A guy who REFUSED to allow any lasting conflict between main characters.

In the first five minutes of ST alone you can see little details that Berman's Mandate of Homogenization would never have allowed. The way that the Kelvin seems so busy with all the chatter? the way the music cut out to operatic music only during the Kelvin's last stand? The music itself? The way the sound went out when that girl got sucked out of the Kelvin into space.

Berman would simply not allow any of that. It's like the man was worried that the audience as all in the retirement home and would die of a heart attack.

Berman is the perfect example of how things go wrong when you have someone who isn't creative at all be in charge of creative. At least people like Douglas Netter and David Eick (mostly) had the good sense to get the F out of the way of their creative collaborator when it came to creative stuff.

There isn't even a comparison between the two.

Are you serious about Berman? You know this for a fact?

Certainly about the music he's right. Consult this interview with Ron Jones, especially question 12. It's no secret that Rick Berman didn't like music on the show, but what's worse is that he didn't have the conviction to take out more of it. Instead he forced his composers to water it down.

I suppose someone else could supply evidence regarding some of the other points, but I do remember reading in the Deep Space Nine Companion from the writers and producers about his conservative nature regarding creative choices. They wanted to make the end credits and score for Trials and Tribble-ations like the ones in TOS, and they were shocked when they were allowed to make an L-cut from Klingons singing, to a shot of their ship as the singing continued.

I realize that there's a balance every producer must strive for between maintaining consistency in a series and taking creative risks, but he, and Gene Roddenberry, were guilty of trying to make the 24th century a little too tame. That's a far worse crime than inconsistencies within canon.

 

[barnaclelapse]

No.

Most people bitched and moaned about how Berman never pushed the envelope creatively, keeping a show made in 1987 basically stagnant for 18 years. People complained that a TNG movie expereince was about as thrilling as a big, two-hour TV movie as far as look, scope and storytelling. Hardcore fans might have liked it and could even defend it. But the mass audience turned away in large numbers because Berman Trek was rather boring.

Eighteen years, eh?

Thank-God you hung in there, man.

 

[Stone_Cold_Sisko]

Bermaga's sin wasn't really any of that, though, and I said as much at the time. Their sin was that they bored us. This movie--for all its sins against the intellect (and they are legion)--did not bore us and so we forgive it.

exactly.

Hell we're talking about a guy who MANDATED that aliens couldn't look too alien. Here's a guy who INSISTED that music had to be as dull as possible to not distract the viewer. A guy who REFUSED to allow any lasting conflict between main characters.

In the first five minutes of ST alone you can see little details that Berman's Mandate of Homogenization would never have allowed. The way that the Kelvin seems so busy with all the chatter? the way the music cut out to operatic music only during the Kelvin's last stand? The music itself? The way the sound went out when that girl got sucked out of the Kelvin into space.

Berman would simply not allow any of that. It's like the man was worried that the audience as all in the retirement home and would die of a heart attack.

Berman is the perfect example of how things go wrong when you have someone who isn't creative at all be in charge of creative. At least people like Douglas Netter and David Eick (mostly) had the good sense to get the F out of the way of their creative collaborator when it came to creative stuff.

There isn't even a comparison between the two.

Are you serious about Berman? You know this for a fact?

The stuff about the aliens, and the music (as mentioned by the poster above me), yes, it has been mentioned and confirmed by people involved with the production of the shows. The third thing, about the lack of meaningful conflict I'm basing on whats onscreen.

 

[Cdr MacDuff]

No.

Most people bitched and moaned about how Berman never pushed the envelope creatively, keeping a show made in 1987 basically stagnant for 18 years. People complained that a TNG movie expereince was about as thrilling as a big, two-hour TV movie as far as look, scope and storytelling. Hardcore fans might have liked it and could even defend it. But the mass audience turned away in large numbers because Berman Trek was rather boring.

Are you sure you don't live in the same alternate timeline than Abrams?

Berman's Star Trek: 7 years of TNG, 7 Years of Voyager, 7 Years of DS9, 5 Years of Enterprise and a couple of movies. You may not like it, but its nothing short of spectacular in term of popularity. Completely spectacular!
Anyway, something doesn't have to be a mainstream success to be good. I like the new movie, but lets get real.

 

[Carpe Occasio]

No.

Most people bitched and moaned about how Berman never pushed the envelope creatively, keeping a show made in 1987 basically stagnant for 18 years. People complained that a TNG movie expereince was about as thrilling as a big, two-hour TV movie as far as look, scope and storytelling. Hardcore fans might have liked it and could even defend it. But the mass audience turned away in large numbers because Berman Trek was rather boring.

Are you sure you don't live in the same alternate timeline than Abrams?

Berman's Star Trek: 7 years of TNG, 7 Years of Voyager, 7 Years of DS9, 5 Years of Enterprise and a couple of movies. You may not like it, but its nothing short of spectacular in term of popularity. Completely spectacular!
Anyway, something doesn't have to be a mainstream success to be good. I like the new movie, but lets get real.

Those are not cumulative years, some of it is concurrent. And Enterprise was only on for four seasons.

 

[Cdr MacDuff]

No.

Most people bitched and moaned about how Berman never pushed the envelope creatively, keeping a show made in 1987 basically stagnant for 18 years. People complained that a TNG movie expereince was about as thrilling as a big, two-hour TV movie as far as look, scope and storytelling. Hardcore fans might have liked it and could even defend it. But the mass audience turned away in large numbers because Berman Trek was rather boring.

Are you sure you don't live in the same alternate timeline than Abrams?

Berman's Star Trek: 7 years of TNG, 7 Years of Voyager, 7 Years of DS9, 5 Years of Enterprise and a couple of movies. You may not like it, but its nothing short of spectacular in term of popularity. Completely spectacular!
Anyway, something doesn't have to be a mainstream success to be good. I like the new movie, but lets get real.

Those are not cumulative years, some of it is concurrent. And Enterprise was only on for four seasons.

Enterprise could have been on for 2 years. Its nothing short of spectacular.

 

[Carpe Occasio]

Are you sure you don't live in the same alternate timeline than Abrams?

Berman's Star Trek: 7 years of TNG, 7 Years of Voyager, 7 Years of DS9, 5 Years of Enterprise and a couple of movies. You may not like it, but its nothing short of spectacular in term of popularity. Completely spectacular!
Anyway, something doesn't have to be a mainstream success to be good. I like the new movie, but lets get real.

Those are not cumulative years, some of it is concurrent. And Enterprise was only on for four seasons.

Enterprise could have been on for 2 years. Its nothing short of spectacular.

I agree it was a good run under Berman. TNG was very popular and it could have continued on for 10 years if it wasn't for Paramounts decision to cancel it. Over time though the franchise started looking worn and faded (although I still enjoyed Enterprise, for the most part).

 

[Lapis Exilis]

Berman was accused of messing with canon, allowing sloppy writing, reusing old story lines, making Star Trek boring. Well, Abrams certainly hasn't made it boring, but he (and his writing buddies) sure messed with canon. And they did some pretty sloppy writing and reused the worn out time travel trick (as well as falling back on the Romulans as the bad guys).

Don't get me wrong, I liked the movie, but we demonized Berman for much of what Abrams has just done.

I don't know, I thought the last half of this movie was pretty boring. The paper thin plot and increasingly ridiculous "evolution" of Kirk lost me round about the time old Spock showed up.

Canon is irrelevant. It is all about a good story. Abrams' Trek was mediocre at best - though apparently he hypnotized a lot of people with all those pretty multi-colored lens flares. Either that or our collective expectations have fallen so low that mediocre causes jumping for joy. Which is a situation I sympathize with, even if I can't bring myself to actually do it.