Kirk's jump in rank makes sense

[chardman]

I'm going to say this yet again...

In the present-day real world a qualified civilian can enter a Naval Officer's Training School (OTS), and emerge 12 weeks later as a full officer. Typically as an ensign, though depending on one's selected career track (Doctors and other advanced professionals), it's even possible to graduate with the rank of Lieutenant or higher, right out of the gate. And upon graduation, some officers in highly specialized tracks can enroll in additional 12-week sessions, and up their ranks even higher, all before ever assuming active duty.

Starfleet Academy isn't a simple 12-week program, but a training program that normally takes 4 whole years. I'd imagine with study of that duration and intensity, that Cadets can achieve much higher commissions upon graduation than that of a lowly ensign, but (as in real world OTSs) can aim considerably higher.

I figure that Kirk was as good as his word, and was on the verge of graduating after only three years at the Academy. Moreover, I believe that he would have graduated as either a Commander or a Captain, even without the events that transpired with his brief stint as "Acting Captain" during the altercation with Nero. He'd graduate as a Commander or Captain because that was what he was studying/training to be in the first place.

He didn't go from Cadet to Captain in a mere 2 days, but over the course of three years of intensive training.

The outlandish aspect of the situation isn't that he achieved the rank of Captain upon graduation, but that he also was given the Position of Captain as well. And based on his actions in the movie, that doesn't strike me as all that implausible.

 

[jeff lebowski]

Things like this will REALLY rub Trekkies the wrong way after multiple viewings if it doesn't already.

The rest of the public won't give a shit.

Thats probably why Abrams thought it was OK.


I like the idea of advancing the timeline 4 years before the end of the movie to show Kirk making Captain. Then they could have done something like "Emergency message from Star Fleet." with Kirk saying "Let's get to work." Or something like that.

 

[cmdrbolly]

I'm going to say this yet again...

In the present-day real world a qualified civilian can enter a Naval Officer's Training School (OTS), and emerge 12 weeks later as a full officer. Typically as an ensign, though depending on one's selected career track (Doctors and other advanced professionals), it's even possible to graduate with the rank of Lieutenant or higher, right out of the gate. And upon graduation, some officers in highly specialized tracks can enroll in additional 12-week sessions, and up their ranks even higher, all before ever assuming active duty.

Starfleet Academy isn't a simple 12-week program, but a training program that normally takes 4 whole years. I'd imagine with study of that duration and intensity, that Cadets can achieve much higher commissions upon graduation than that of a lowly ensign, but (as in real world OTSs) can aim considerably higher.

I figure that Kirk was as good as his word, and was on the verge of graduating after only three years at the Academy. Moreover, I believe that he would have graduated as either a Commander or a Captain, even without the events that transpired with his brief stint as "Acting Captain" during the altercation with Nero. He'd graduate as a Commander or Captain because that was what he was studying/training to be in the first place.

He didn't go from Cadet to Captain in a mere 2 days, but over the course of three years of intensive training.

The outlandish aspect of the situation isn't that he achieved the rank of Captain upon graduation, but that he also was given the Position of Captain as well. And based on his action in the movie, that doesn't strike me as all that implausible.

Sorry, but you're making too much sense. You clearly should not be part of this conversation.

 

[Thrawn]

I'm going to say this yet again...

In the present-day real world a qualified civilian can enter a Naval Officer's Training School (OTS), and emerge 12 weeks later as a full officer. Typically as an ensign, though depending on one's selected career track (Doctors and other advanced professionals), it's even possible to graduate with the rank of Lieutenant or higher, right out of the gate. And upon graduation, some officers in highly specialized tracks can enroll in additional 12-week sessions, and up their ranks even higher, all before ever assuming active duty.

Starfleet Academy isn't a simple 12-week program, but a training program that normally takes 4 whole years. I'd imagine with study of that duration and intensity, that Cadets can achieve much higher commissions upon graduation than that of a lowly ensign, but (as in real world OTSs) can aim considerably higher.

I figure that Kirk was as good as his word, and was on the verge of graduating after only three years at the Academy. Moreover, I believe that he would have graduated as either a Commander or a Captain, even without the events that transpired with his brief stint as "Acting Captain" during the altercation with Nero. He'd graduate as a Commander or Captain because that was what he was studying/training to be in the first place.

He didn't go from Cadet to Captain in a mere 2 days, but over the course of three years of intensive training.

The outlandish aspect of the situation isn't that he achieved the rank of Captain upon graduation, but that he also was given the Position of Captain as well. And based on his actions in the movie, that doesn't strike me as all that implausible.

I love this post.

 

[Holodoc]

In might not make sense from a strictly military perspective, but it does make perfect sense from a Horatio Hornblower point of view.

On the contrary, Horatio Hornblower had to work like a dog for every single promotion he ever recieved, and while he did get help from friendly senior officers, he still had to spend time in grade and pass the promotion exams (save for the case of the fire ship, but special circumstances, and it was just a one-point jump). Kirk is in no way, shape or form anything like Horatio Hornblower on this matter.

 

[c0rnedfr0g]

4. Kirk's good looks, youth and heroism make him a terrific pr/recruiting tool/symbol on earth

I seriously doubt this even crossed the minds of those in charge of promotion, much less factored into their decision

Otherwise, observant points

 

[Ovation]

4. Kirk's good looks, youth and heroism make him a terrific pr/recruiting tool/symbol on earth

I seriously doubt this even crossed the minds of those in charge of promotion, much less factored into their decision

Otherwise, observant points

It would be more interesting if it did cross their minds, though. It would add a layer of complexity to the otherwise "pure" Starfleet.

 

[clint g]

I'm going to say this yet again...

In the present-day real world a qualified civilian can enter a Naval Officer's Training School (OTS), and emerge 12 weeks later as a full officer. Typically as an ensign, though depending on one's selected career track (Doctors and other advanced professionals), it's even possible to graduate with the rank of Lieutenant or higher, right out of the gate. And upon graduation, some officers in highly specialized tracks can enroll in additional 12-week sessions, and up their ranks even higher, all before ever assuming active duty.

Starfleet Academy isn't a simple 12-week program, but a training program that normally takes 4 whole years. I'd imagine with study of that duration and intensity, that Cadets can achieve much higher commissions upon graduation than that of a lowly ensign, but (as in real world OTSs) can aim considerably higher.

I figure that Kirk was as good as his word, and was on the verge of graduating after only three years at the Academy. Moreover, I believe that he would have graduated as either a Commander or a Captain, even without the events that transpired with his brief stint as "Acting Captain" during the altercation with Nero. He'd graduate as a Commander or Captain because that was what he was studying/training to be in the first place.

He didn't go from Cadet to Captain in a mere 2 days, but over the course of three years of intensive training.

The outlandish aspect of the situation isn't that he achieved the rank of Captain upon graduation, but that he also was given the Position of Captain as well. And based on his actions in the movie, that doesn't strike me as all that implausible.

OTS is not a simple 12 week program. OTS is essentially a 4 year program since a college degree is required for completion of the course unless you are going through the National Guard State OCS program. Whether your receive your comission through OCS, ROTC, or the Service Academies each of those programs require about 4 years worth of training and you only recieve a comssion as a 2nd LT or Ensign upon completion. If anything, OCS/OTS is the longer path since it requires Basic Training as well as Officer Candidate School after completion of your four year degree while ROTC/Service Academies tackle both at the same time . You do not become a Captain/Colonel. Its ludicrous to think that would happen. The only real exception are doctors/lawyers, and even they still become 2nd LTs and do not recieve their boost in status until they have recieved their law school or med school degree.

 

[Lt. Trull]

of course it makes sense. A after action report would have to be wrote by all individuals. which would introduct spock prime; Nero; and who what where when and why.

star fleet intelligence would say hello to sprock prime real fast. spock prime tell star fleet intelligence that you have this ship and these individuals well... they have to be on this ship.

they saved earth onnce now; they will (we will) many many more times. and that is why u have to let them do their job.

OH YEAH.... Spock Prime Helped kirk become captain.

 

[c0rnedfr0g]

Also remember that basically an entire graduating class of Starfleet Academy (or more, perhaps the class below them was called for duty as well) was wiped out in the first wave of ships sent to Vulcan

Also, Kirk could be (or perhaps already is) privy to vital information from Old Spock

 

[Thrawn]

of course it makes sense. A after action report would have to be wrote by all individuals. which would introduct spock prime; Nero; and who what where when and why.

star fleet intelligence would say hello to sprock prime real fast. spock prime tell star fleet intelligence that you have this ship and these individuals well... they have to be on this ship.

they saved earth onnce now; they will (we will) many many more times. and that is why u have to let them do their job.

OH YEAH.... Spock Prime Helped kirk become captain.

Yet another plausible explanation.

 

[Captain Fine]

Spock Prime was very insistent that Captain Kirk and his First Officer Spock was the correct order of things. I'm sure Pike agreed. And that was that.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

No way would Kirk (or anyone else) graduate as a full Commander! That doesn't make any sense. At the most, he'd have graduated as a Lieutenant, which it seems he did do - in both timelines.

 

[Holodoc]

Also remember that basically an entire graduating class of Starfleet Academy (or more, perhaps the class below them was called for duty as well) was wiped out in the first wave of ships sent to Vulcan.

And? Unless you're suggesting that one of those cadets was slated to be jumped clear up to captain?

Not to mention, we saw a lot of cadets on the surface when Nero was firing at Earth, and the auditorium was packed when Kirk was getting his absurd promotion. If Starfleet suffered such huge losses to its academy population, the movie doesn't show it.

 

[candle_86]

I've seen a lot of complaints about Kirk's jump in rank, and on the face of it, they're pretty justified. That isn't at all how rank would/should work most of the time, and its fairly obvious the motivation for it is that JJ Abrams:

a.) wanted to end with the original TOS crew in place and in charge of the enterprise

and

b.) Really, really liked the ending to Star Wars Episode IV.

However, I think it can be explained, at least partially, by a bunch of factors:

1. Kirk is to Pike as Wesley Crusher is to Picard, in that he is his clear favorite and because of that gets placed in somewhat unlikely and seemingly undeserved positions (remember, the REAL rank jump that makes no sense is for Kirk to be named first officer for no reason at all after he's not even supposed to be on the ship, and that is ALL Pike. For a First Officer to save the world and be named a captain makes sense--its just that Kirk never really should have been a first officer). Also, Pike's fascination with the heroism of Kirk's father would likely cause him to place extreme emphasis on Kirk's similar moment--he says as much when he explicitly references it when granting him his commission.

3. There are almost certainly a very large number of vacancies created by the loss of those ships and of Vulcan--meaning LOTS of people are gonna see their careers accelerated by necessity.

3. Kirk DID just save the world acting in the capacity of captain, and making the crucial decision to go right after the Nerada rather than sticking to protocol.

4. Kirk's good looks, youth and heroism make him a terrific pr/recruiting tool/symbol on earth, and in the wake of the tragedy of vulcan, I could also see significant popular support for the young hero who not only saved earth but in the process helped bring justice for the Vulcans (like if Chesley Sullenberger looked like Matt Damon and in the process of landing that plane had somehow killed Hitler)

5. Kirk would be a serious handful for any ordinary captain to reign in if serving in a lower capacity, especially now that he's gotten a taste of the captain's chair. From the very beginning he was constitutionally insubordinate to everyone but Pike, who is now an admiral. Someone like Picard could reign him in I'm sure, but lacking that, you're left with a brilliant and heroic young man who seems in many ways very well suited to be a captain, and extremely unsuited to be anything else.

Its still a bit of a stretch, but not too bad. Put it another way--JJ Abrams was interested in the storybook ending. Well, wouldn't Starfleet be too? If you were someone at Starfleet, wouldn't this story be essentially the exact story you'd want to tell to a Federation shocked, terrified and demoralized by the loss of Vulcan, and perhaps wondering for the first time if Starfleet can really protect them the way it claims? You'd want your most popular figures front and center in the public eye in the most prominent role possible, and right now nobody is more popular than Kirk. That alone might not be enough to make him a captain, but it might serve to keep arguing too fiercely with Pike when he starts pushing for Kirk to be made captain.

It'll be interesting to see how the rest of starfleet sees him though. I mean, I'm sure he's won the loyalty of the crew of the enterprise, but beyond that I bet there are a LOT of career officers who resent the hell out of this hotshot pretty boy admiral's favorite and would just love to kick his ass.

Would you. Lets say just for thought, after pearl harbor, a young Naval Cadet had been given the flagship of the pacfic fleet because he shot down a Japanese fighter?

The truth is spock saved the day not kirk, it was spot who piolted the science vessel into the Narda, it wasn't kirk. Spock saved earth and kirk gets the glory.

 

[Holodoc]

Also, I doubt Kirk's won the loyalty of anyone beyond the bridge crew; the other three hundred and ninety-someodd people on that ship (or more, since the ships seemed bigger in this universe) wouldn't know him from Adam.

 

[FailedLurker]

A few reasons why I don't have a problem with the rank jump.

One is an old idea that I read years ago, attributed to Gene Roddenberry as an attempt to de-militarize Starfleet, that Starfleet ranks aren't like military ranks, they're more like job descriptions. Clearly in the old timeline this idea was total bunk, but maybe in the new timeline there's some truth to the idea. The way Captains Robou and Pike transferred command before leaving the ship certainly lends credence to this - would they willy-nilly make people Captains like that if it was an actual military promotion?

The other thing is that ranks - however analogous they are to military ranks - are clearly far less strict in the new timeline than they were in the old. If nothing else, the new timeline is chock-a-block full of field promotions and situational promotions, starting right off the bat with starships crewed by cadets.

The new timeline Starfleet also appears to be very much a meritocracy - if you can do the job you can have the job, starting with wunderkind Ensign Chekov, Cadet Uhura taking over the bridge comm station, McCoy as CMO, Scott taking over the engine room. Kirk getting the captain's post fits the pattern set in the rest of the movie.

 

[Ovation]

A few reasons why I don't have a problem with the rank jump.

One is an old idea that I read years ago, attributed to Gene Roddenberry as an attempt to de-militarize Starfleet, that Starfleet ranks aren't like military ranks, they're more like job descriptions. Clearly in the old timeline this idea was total bunk, but maybe in the new timeline there's some truth to the idea. The way Captains Robou and Pike transferred command before leaving the ship certainly lends credence to this - would they willy-nilly make people Captains like that if it was an actual military promotion?

The other thing is that ranks - however analogous they are to military ranks - are clearly far less strict in the new timeline than they were in the old. If nothing else, the new timeline is chock-a-block full of field promotions and situational promotions, starting right off the bat with starships crewed by cadets.

The new timeline Starfleet also appears to be very much a meritocracy - if you can do the job you can have the job, starting with wunderkind Ensign Chekov, Cadet Uhura taking over the bridge comm station, McCoy as CMO, Scott taking over the engine room. Kirk getting the captain's post fits the pattern set in the rest of the movie.

This will certainly rankle those who insist on interpreting fictional future institutions as strictly analogous to present ones AND I'm not sure any of the filmmakers gave this any conscious thought. That said, I find this idea quite interesting. I will try to keep this notion in mind the next time I watch the film.

 

[marc0702]

wouldn't he have to be at least a lieutenant to be doing the no win scenario? I remember in star trek 2 saavik was a lieutenant, but still a cadet

 

[clint g]

A few reasons why I don't have a problem with the rank jump.

One is an old idea that I read years ago, attributed to Gene Roddenberry as an attempt to de-militarize Starfleet, that Starfleet ranks aren't like military ranks, they're more like job descriptions. Clearly in the old timeline this idea was total bunk, but maybe in the new timeline there's some truth to the idea. The way Captains Robou and Pike transferred command before leaving the ship certainly lends credence to this - would they willy-nilly make people Captains like that if it was an actual military promotion?

Thats already what military ranks are. the problem is that Trek often time doesn't follow this rule. An example from the Army would be that a 2nd lt would be (for the most part) a Platoon leader, 1LT would be either a PL or company XO. A captain would be a Company commander or have a staf position. a major would be a battalion XO or member of battalion staff. A LTC would be a battalion commander, a full bird a brigade commander. rank is already a description of what your job is, the problem is that Trek treats rank as if it were a reward; this is essentially what happened in this movie when Kirk was made Captain.

The other thing is that ranks - however analogous they are to military ranks - are clearly far less strict in the new timeline than they were in the old. If nothing else, the new timeline is chock-a-block full of field promotions and situational promotions, starting right off the bat with starships crewed by cadets.

Which seems more likely sloppy writting more than anything else

The new timeline Starfleet also appears to be very much a meritocracy - if you can do the job you can have the job, starting with wunderkind Ensign Chekov, Cadet Uhura taking over the bridge comm station, McCoy as CMO, Scott taking over the engine room. Kirk getting the captain's post fits the pattern set in the rest of the movie.

The military is already a meritocracy. When you are enlisted, youre first 4 promotions (or essentially, you're first 2 to 4 years of service) are freebies. You get those automatically. After that, when you want to become an NCO you need to pass board exams and have promotion points which are accumulated by displaying proficincy in several areas.

Its the same with being an officer. The first three are freebies. If you dont make Captain(Army, Air Force, Marines) or Lieutenant (Navy, Coast Guard) you must have fucked up so bad that you might as well quit and find another job. Once you hit Major you start competing for slots, which is usualy determined by what positions youve had in the past. If you have proven yourself worthy (usualy by showing competancy in PL, Company CO, and Company XO positions) then you get the job.