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Lets talk about Helen Noel

Despite being stuck in that subservient period where women couldn't be captain, she held herself pretty confidently. She is obviously physically attractive, but the way she portrayed Helen... the personality that she projected... that together with her visual impression is what knocked me over. I don't know what the politics were at the time. Whitney was beginning to be a problem (apparently she was originally supposed to accompany Kirk to the Tantalus colony). With Hill already committed to her guest role as Dr. Noel, there wouldn't be chance to fill the yeoman spot in place of Whitney. Personally, I think she'd have made a great addition to McCoy's team. :)
 
Do we seriously have proof beyond Lester (a nut) that women couldn't be Captains? The TOS movies gave us at least one.
 
I always thought Lester not being Captain, was because she was NUTS, not because she was a woman.
 
ummm.........hellooooooooo....................???

Where is the compulsory gravity-defying Helen photo?? Hmm??
 
Do we seriously have proof beyond Lester (a nut) that women couldn't be Captains? The TOS movies gave us at least one.
Not really, but it seemed to be the consensus from the previous threads where it was discussed. No female captains were revealed during TOS, not even a Starfleet admiral. Obviously that changed. Anyway, I was just making a point in her confidence. :)
 
Do we seriously have proof beyond Lester (a nut) that women couldn't be Captains? The TOS movies gave us at least one.
Not really, but it seemed to be the consensus from the previous threads where it was discussed. No female captains were revealed during TOS, not even a Starfleet admiral. Obviously that changed. Anyway, I was just making a point in her confidence. :)
Gary7, what is Helen Noel saying in your avatar?
 
Is she supposed to be saying anything? I assumed that's just an image manipulation.
 
Hey Gary Mitchell and Anwar, it's just a few different mouth positions stringed together. I was going to try coming up with a pattern, then I fat fingered the closing of the PSD and lost all my work... my avatar GIF was an interim copy. I haven't quite gotten down the technique to do it convincingly, the way Orac, NCC-1701 and a few others have done. One day... :)
 
^ She kind of looks like she's talking out of the side of her mouth, which is really funny. Not sure that's what you intended, but...
 
I agree that Hollywierd writers and producers of that era seemed to have no idea how to get beyond the blatant sexism of the Cold War era (which continued right up to 20 years ago, including the early TNG days) and depict female characters as serious players in the TREK Universe, and the hilarious miniskirts the female Enterprise crewmembers wore didn't help matters any (nor did the repeated application of the enlisted term "yeoman", which practically became synonymous with "woman") but sexism is a very difficult scourge to eradicate.

It didn't do TNG's reputation any good to start the Berman-era catsuit tradition with Troi, then continue it with DS9's tight-suited Kira and the Dabo Girls, then VOY's over-the-top Seven of Nine, then ENT's T'Pol. The whole oversexed crewmen-in-tights thing was more than just poor taste and bad costuming. It showed a lack of creative direction. The viewer got eye candy, a poor substitute for good writing and overall direction.

Better stories and character development, arising from a more thoughtful direction of the show, would've corrected all of this, but not just by answering the question "how do we depict a sexism-less Utopia?"

You have to go back and question alot of things about each of the shows, from TOS forward. Every one of them fumbled, especially on depicting equality between the sexes. Part of the way you do it is to avoid drawing attention to it. Yes, the uniforms could've been less sexist. (I think the DS9 jumpsuits finally were going in the right direction. They weren't as tight and looked more utilitarian, without completely repudiating the TREK "look".) But in order to change the tone of TREK to deflate the sexism, you would probably have to do more than just eliminate tights and miniskirts, have better-written stories and ones with more interesting female characters. Yuo need a direction, that's what I mean by a change in tone.

I was actually more impressed by the first four TREK movies than I was with early TNG. Uhura and other female regulars were older, and they weren't wearing minis or tights, and the atmosphere, while sometimes silly, seemed more like co-workers talking to each other than the old stilted "aye, sir"; Uhura's best lines were "Now, what's that supposed to mean?" in TMP2 and her "Mr. Adventure" scene in TMP3. Of course, it has to be said that the movies were supremely lacking in direction; they simply benefitted from momentum of each succeeding story.

One thing STARGATE SG-1 did well that TREK never really tried was semi-serialization. Ongoing plot threads and an overall direction for SG-1 showed what TREK could've done. The whole SG-1 environment allowed the characters to develop and thrive much more comprehensively than any of the TREK series.
 
She looks familiar too...

noel.jpg
 
3474942890_e6b73fe746_o.jpg



She was still a very lovely woman with a great smile :bolian:

Vons

Well, I can only go from a female perspective, but she always had a "hard" look to me in her expression. There were pretty women (lots of them,) on the series, but I've always been puzzled why guys go ga-ga over her, unless it's the figure, which of course, is not something about which I care as a woman! :lol:

You may not believe this, :p but some of us out here are attracted to women who are not fabulously good looking but who combine that with brains, self confidence and competence. She wasn't just some helpless damsel. She was Kirk's equal, knew it and didn't bother trying to hide it. She was a more complete character to me than even the Romulan Commander who in the end, ruined her career by lusting too much for a man she should have known she couldn't have.
 
You're in the minority, I fear. Most of the males in here are not lusting after her brains, and I daresay, wouldn't care if the head had nothing in there but air. :lol:

And to be honest, many women on Star Trek had brains (and all had looks, they were actresses, so that goes with the territory,) but I've never seen the amount of "oh, she's so hot" for any woman in this forum as I have for Noel. And I truly don't get it. She's not the prettiest (or even the smartest) woman ever on Star Trek.

I guess men really are from Mars. :lol:

As for the Romulan Commander? No one stupid enough to put her duty aside for an alien (enemy) male would earn my respect. She's a pretty woman and of a neat race, but she broke Romulan rule #1, never do something that will be used against you.

But again, it was a 1960s production, and more often than not, women were often portrayed as giving everything up, or endangering themselves stupidly, for that SPECIAL MAN (who may or may not have real feelings for the woman.) Space Seed also had a smart, pretty and utterly stupid woman.
 
re: SS's utterly stupid woman ...

When I was in jr high, I ranked SPACE SEED practically at the bottom of the TOS list (well, AND THE CHILDREN ..., PLATO'S STEPCHILDREN and ALTERNATIVE FACTOR were below it), just because i found the McGivers incompetence/stupidity thing SO annoying.

Oddly enough, I don't think I found Lt. Palamas anywhere near as annoying ... maybe because there is a dif in my mind to being hit on by a god and being hit on by somebody who presumably looks like a god to you.

I'm probably odd in that I found both women sexy (something I cannot say about too many TOS babes, though HElen Noel also makes the cut, as does Deela and Anne Mulhall and of course Yeoman Barrows.)
 
You're in the minority, I fear. Most of the males in here are not lusting after her brains, and I daresay, wouldn't care if the head had nothing in there but air. :lol:

And to be honest, many women on Star Trek had brains (and all had looks, they were actresses, so that goes with the territory,) but I've never seen the amount of "oh, she's so hot" for any woman in this forum as I have for Noel. And I truly don't get it. She's not the prettiest (or even the smartest) woman ever on Star Trek.

I guess men really are from Mars. :lol:

As for the Romulan Commander? No one stupid enough to put her duty aside for an alien (enemy) male would earn my respect. She's a pretty woman and of a neat race, but she broke Romulan rule #1, never do something that will be used against you.

But again, it was a 1960s production, and more often than not, women were often portrayed as giving everything up, or endangering themselves stupidly, for that SPECIAL MAN (who may or may not have real feelings for the woman.) Space Seed also had a smart, pretty and utterly stupid woman.

Damn, woman talk about painting with a broad brush. You say yourself there's got to be something different about her, then proceed to dismiss outright the possibility that the "something different" is that she's portrayed as the mental and emotional equal of Kirk. Saying that men couldn't possibly be attracted to her because of her brains strikes me as *wait for it* sexist! :p
 
You're in the minority, I fear. Most of the males in here are not lusting after her brains, and I daresay, wouldn't care if the head had nothing in there but air. :lol:

And to be honest, many women on Star Trek had brains (and all had looks, they were actresses, so that goes with the territory,) but I've never seen the amount of "oh, she's so hot" for any woman in this forum as I have for Noel. And I truly don't get it. She's not the prettiest (or even the smartest) woman ever on Star Trek.

I guess men really are from Mars. :lol:

Says you! :rommie:


I would say Marianna Hill and her practically-painted-on miniskirt and gravity-defying bra is definitely the, if not one of the, most conspicuous attention-getting ladies in TOS, if not all of TREK. "Dagger of the Mind", with its memorable story and its comical scenes no doubt helps boost Hill over the top. Besides, there's nothing sexier (in either gender) than a smart, disciplined and confident adult who knows what (s)he wants. A great physique helps, but it doesn't cinch the deal.



As for the Romulan Commander? No one stupid enough to put her duty aside for an alien (enemy) male would earn my respect. She's a pretty woman and of a neat race, but she broke Romulan rule #1, never do something that will be used against you.

But again, it was a 1960s production, and more often than not, women were often portrayed as giving everything up, or endangering themselves stupidly, for that SPECIAL MAN (who may or may not have real feelings for the woman.) Space Seed also had a smart, pretty and utterly stupid woman.

As far as "The Enterprise Incident" is concerned, the only way to explain the plot away would be to assume that Vulcan and the Romulans have a long-standing and complex (under the table) relationship, and that Romulans in power find Vulcans irresistible. Keep in mind we never saw the Commander being apprehended for her fraternization with Spock, and maybe Tal simply assumed that Kirk kidnapped her along with Spock. She did order Tal to destroy the Enterprise, which may have convinced Tal she was still loyal. For all we know, she was eventually returned to her people, and the top Romulan brass simply asked her "Did you get anything out of that cute Vulcan you were wining and dining before Kirk kidnapped you both?" and then sent her back to her command.
 
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