Trek XI's implications for future Trek novels (major movie spoilers)

[captcalhoun]

Re: Trek XI's implications for future Trek novels (major movie spoiler

remember folks, this is the same guy who swears Starfleet's not military despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary. once RedJack makes his mind up nothing can change it.

 

[Geoff Thorne]

Re: Trek XI's implications for future Trek novels (major movie spoiler

folks, this is the same who swears Starfleet's not military despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary. once RedJack makes his mind up nothing can change it.

Well there is the little matter of what was actually depicted and stated in the film.

 

[LightningStorm]

Re: Trek XI's implications for future Trek novels (major movie spoiler

If the film makers had wanted us to see other Vulcans escaping, they would have shown us that. They didn't. Spock and the councillors are the only survivors of Vulcan's destruction. Until further notice, of course.

The bolded part, I think, is Sci's point. One can, for now, only speculate one way or the other. Maybe there are others they didn't show, maybe not. They left it open enough that if they wanted there to be more that escaped they could say "hey we just didn't show it" or they can go your route and say "Nope, that was it. Period."

 

[Christopher]

Re: Trek XI's implications for future Trek novels (major movie spoiler

We can know that by omission. When she appears in AMOK TIME, her big accomplishments are listed. If she was on the council Kirk or Bones would have said so. They listed her Dalai Lama qualities instead. It would be illogical for someone with that much cultural influence to be on the council anyway as her mere presence would be unduly influencing even among Vulcans. She would know that and so would they.

Sure, a writer could say she was on the council and that she was one of those rescued but not if they were truly being faithful to the canon.

Either way, 10,000 Vulcans got off the planet. It's not like the High Council was the only group that had a spaceship.

There is also absolutely no evidence of that. The Enterprise advised the Vulcan government to begin a planet-wide evacuation, and we have no idea if there were civilian ships in Vulcan orbit or not.

I didn't see any. And, more to the point: they told them to evacuate the planet and then Spock realizes there's no time, hence his EXTREMELY emotional response. There were no ships blasting off in the distance from the surface and not one ship shown to be in orbit.

Planets are big. If you were far enough from Vulcan to see it as it was shown in its final moments in the film, you would be unable to see any spaceships or stations in orbit around it because they'd simply be too small in proportion.

Besides, it makes absolutely no sense to assume that every Vulcan in the entire 40 Eridani system was on the surface of the planet with no access to a spaceship, or that there were no orbital stations capable of beaming people up from the surface. Whether we saw them or not, it's categorically illogical to assume they didn't exist.

If the film makers had wanted us to see other Vulcans escaping, they would have shown us that. They didn't. Spock and the councillors are the only survivors of Vulcan's destruction. Until further notice, of course.

They didn't have to show us. They told us. Spock said there were 10,000 survivors. You're just choosing to interpret that line in a way that doesn't make any sense.

No. His words can't be interpretted that way. He said there were 10000 left. Total. An endangered species.

He'd just been through the greatest tragedy of his life. Is it so hard for you to consider that his perspective might've been skewed? You're a writer yourself -- surely you're familiar with the concept of an unreliable narrator.

Spock would not make the error you are ascribing to him and there were two Spock's present. There's no wiggle room here.

You're making an error yourself by conflating two separate scenes. There was only one Spock present when he said the line about an endangered species, in his log entry immediately after Vulcan's destruction. Spock Prime only said "With so few Vulcans left." Compared to six billion, millions would certainly qualify as "few."

 

[Sci]

Re: Trek XI's implications for future Trek novels (major movie spoiler

The new film is a reboot, regardless of spouting off alternate timeline excuses, is it inconcievable that they would want all tie-in fiction to follow their new cashcow?

No, it's not inconceivable, but there's absolutely no evidence for it, either.



We don't know that. The identities of the members of the Vulcan High Council -- which seems to have been a cultural entity rather than a governmental one -- other than Sarek went unestablished.

We can know that by omission. When she appears in AMOK TIME, her big accomplishments are listed. If she was on the council Kirk or Bones would have said so. They listed her Dalai Lama qualities instead. It would be illogical for someone with that much cultural influence to be on the council anyway as her mere presence would be unduly influencing even among Vulcans. She would know that and so would they.

Sure, a writer could say she was on the council and that she was one of those rescued but not if they were truly being faithful to the canon.

I don't really think that's a logical inference. T'Pau may have had strong opinions against allowing off-worlders to see Vulcan marriage ceremonies, but it doesn't follow that she therefore would have been unlikely to travel off-planet.



There is also absolutely no evidence of that. The Enterprise advised the Vulcan government to begin a planet-wide evacuation, and we have no idea if there were civilian ships in Vulcan orbit or not.

I didn't see any. And, more to the point: they told them to evacuate the planet and then Spock realizes there's no time, hence his EXTREMELY emotional response. There were no ships blasting off in the distance from the surface and not one ship shown to be in orbit. It's just like those old G.I. Joe cartoons where they make a point of showing chutes opening when a plane is shot down.

If the film makers had wanted us to see other Vulcans escaping, they would have shown us that. They didn't. Spock and the councillors are the only survivors of Vulcan's destruction. Until further notice, of course.

The only ship we saw in the vicinity that was warp capable and knew a singularity was coming was Enterprise. Even if the (unseen) Vulcan ships had managed to get a few thousand people beamed up, they were certainly destroyed in the ensuing gravitational collapse.

10000

I have no problem with your interpretation, RedJack, but, and no offense, you are not Robert Orci or JJ Abrams or any of the other creators involved. Your interpretation, while valid, is not the only valid one. Please do not act as though it is.

Spock's line could be interpreted as meaning that only 10,000 people got into orbit before the planet was destroyed just as easily as it could be interpreted to mean that only the 10,000 Vulcans already off-planet survived. There's really not enough info to come to a firm conclusion.

No. His words can't be interpretted that way. He said there were 10000 left. Total.

Actually, his exact words were, "I estimate only 10,000 survived," if I recall correctly. The phrasing is ambiguous -- he could mean species total, or he could mean the total number of survivors who were at Vulcan when it was destroyed.

 

[FatherRob]

Re: Trek XI's implications for future Trek novels (major movie spoiler

Spock was able to rescue the Vulcans we saw. Everyone else on the planet, Vulcan or otherwise, died. It is the Vulcan offworld diaspora that continues to exist. 10000.

I distinctly saw ships in the sky behind Spock during the beam-down to evacuate scene. Some evidently got out.

Rob+

 

[Christopher]

Re: Trek XI's implications for future Trek novels (major movie spoiler

Actually, his exact words were, "I estimate only 10,000 survived," if I recall correctly. The phrasing is ambiguous -- he could mean species total, or he could mean the total number of survivors who were at Vulcan when it was destroyed.

Again, I think it's more likely to be the latter. If they were Vulcans who'd been nowhere near the disaster but just happened to live elsewhere, then you would say "they survive," not "they survived." Putting it in the past tense means that you're referring to a specific event that they lived through, rather than merely describing their continued existence unaffected by that event.

 

[Geoff Thorne]

Re: Trek XI's implications for future Trek novels (major movie spoiler

As I said, 10000 Vulcans in the entire galaxy is an endangered species. If there are millions more out there on colony worlds, the conversation makes no sense.

With a diaspora numbering in the millions, the loss of life on the homeworld would have been horrible, tragic but nowhere near a threat to Vulcans as a species.

Yeah, the writers could come back and say anything they like but nothing that we see or, in this case, don't see in a film is accidental. So, until further notice, I'm standing on a total of 10000 (known) Vulcans in the galaxy and the majority of them dying with their planet.

 

[Nerroth]

Re: Trek XI's implications for future Trek novels (major movie spoiler

The long-range transporter thing could have been 'acquired' from the Dominion - or at least worked out independently once the Federation had documented that the Dominion had shown it could be done (by a power that aren't so far advanced compared to the UFP that it would take as long a time to catch up as it would to, say, the Iconians).


In terms of explaining the fate of the Vulcan people - not quite species, since Romulus and the rest of the RSE is still present and accounted for - perhaps there had been a kind of cultural retrenchment in the decades after the establishment of the Federation, and the rise to prominence of Starfleet.

Prior to the establishment of Starfleet as the primary military/scientific exploration arm of the Federation, Vulcan would have had a strong going concern in both maintaining their own naval assets, as well as maintaining numerous colonies, research outposts (such as P'Jem) and so on - not just for exploration's sake, but also to counter Andorian ambitions, provide a means of warding off the Klingons, as well as resisting any Romulan invasion.

However, once the Andorian issue was taken out of the equation (through both powers joining in the Coalition, then the Federation proper) and the responsibilities for keeping tabs on the Klingons and others shifted to Starfleet (instead of being under the remit of any one Federation member world) Vulcan had no need to maintain P'Jem-like outposts, military bases, or what have you.

Now that Starfleet was there to do most of the 'dirty work' of providing the Federation's military arm, Vulcan's own institutions could re-purpose themelves into more strictly scientific roles - and thus increase the cultural divide that would have been seen with the now more 'pacifist' Science Academy and service in Starfleet.

Indeed, at the same time, Vulcan society itself was being transformed, through the discovery of the Kir'shara and the dissolution of the old High Command - to say nothing of the external factors which made Vulcan somewhat less prominent (going from being the capital world of a mono-species power to being a 'mere' major member of a broader multi-species superpower... one filled with all sorts of illogical beings, not least those upstart humans) - all of which may have invoked a kind of isolationism, which may have both drawn Vulcans on the homeworld to look more inward culturally, and perhaps have called many colonists to withdraw from a changing galaxy and return home.


In short, as Vulcan became more pacifist, it may have become more reclusive - with tragic consequences once the home world was taken away.

 

[Danoz]

Re: Trek XI's implications for future Trek novels (major movie spoiler

I would like to read more about Spock's work with the Vulcans, and the consequences of his disappearance (forever) into a black hole (though it's unclear/unestablished as to when this occurs on our timeline). I would hate to read books about alternate Picards/Rikers because, in reality, this set of events could have ensured that several of these people aren't even born (part of the reason I find alternate universes/timelines generally contrived and ridiculous).

It's safe to say that Tuvok will never born. Think of how many conceptions didn't place when/how they should have because of these events. This book changes EVERYTHING. Possible books about the future of the Federation and the fallout of the loss of Vulcan (if not addressed in new movies) would definitely be worth reading.

 

[Sci]

Re: Trek XI's implications for future Trek novels (major movie spoiler

As I said, 10000 Vulcans in the entire galaxy is an endangered species. If there are millions more out there on colony worlds, the conversation makes no sense.

It was a log entry, not a conversation, and surely you can forgive the narrator for being unreliable when he just saw his homeworld destroyed and his mother murdered.

 

[Geoff Thorne]

Re: Trek XI's implications for future Trek novels (major movie spoiler

As I said, 10000 Vulcans in the entire galaxy is an endangered species. If there are millions more out there on colony worlds, the conversation makes no sense.

It was a log entry, not a conversation, and surely you can forgive the narrator for being unreliable when he just saw his homeworld destroyed and his mother murdered.

No. I don't "forgive." There's no reason to.

The fact that it was an official document, a log, is even more restricting. Spock doesn't make those sorts of errors. And he's certainly not hyperbolic.

He said what he meant.

Neroth's assessment is precisely how I see it. Most of the Vulcans were at home when the planet went Phut!

Hence "endangered species."

He may be a younger, more volatile Spock but he's still Spock. If anything he was more rigid than Spock Prime.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Re: Trek XI's implications for future Trek novels (major movie spoiler

If the film makers had wanted us to see other Vulcans escaping, they would have shown us that. They didn't. Spock and the councillors are the only survivors of Vulcan's destruction. Until further notice, of course.

No. In fact, Spock's dialogue implies that an evacuation of the planet will be carried out independent of his beam-down. He's going to get the councillors because despite calling for a general evacuation he's pretty sure that he knows the council will be together in a place where they will either not be aware of or not be able to take part in the evacuation.

 

[Christopher]

Re: Trek XI's implications for future Trek novels (major movie spoiler

As I said, 10000 Vulcans in the entire galaxy is an endangered species. If there are millions more out there on colony worlds, the conversation makes no sense.

You know, you're undermining your argument by revealing that you don't even remember the details of the film. As I just told you, it was not a conversation. The line "I am now a member of an endangered species" was spoken in a log entry recorded by Spock immediately after the destruction of Vulcan. You're confusing that with the conversation he had with Spock Prime much later in the film, in which there was no reuse of the term "endangered species." Get your basic facts straight before you assume you absolutely must be right.

It's more plausible that Spock's statement was simply the hyperbole of a distraught and suffering man than it is that a 400-year-old spacegoing civilization is incapable of evacuating anyone into space through its own efforts.

The long-range transporter thing could have been 'acquired' from the Dominion - or at least worked out independently once the Federation had documented that the Dominion had shown it could be done (by a power that aren't so far advanced compared to the UFP that it would take as long a time to catch up as it would to, say, the Iconians).

We saw an interstellar subspace transporter used by DaiMon Bok in "Bloodlines" on TNG. We know the technology exists in the early 2370s; it's just not commonly used because it's dangerous and extremely power-intensive. Which isn't inconsistent with its use in the movie, given the extreme urgency of the situation (although the power demands are hard to reconcile with beaming from a shuttlecraft).

In terms of explaining the fate of the Vulcan people - not quite species, since Romulus and the rest of the RSE is still present and accounted for - perhaps there had been a kind of cultural retrenchment in the decades after the establishment of the Federation, and the rise to prominence of Starfleet.
...
Indeed, at the same time, Vulcan society itself was being transformed, through the discovery of the Kir'shara and the dissolution of the old High Command - to say nothing of the external factors which made Vulcan somewhat less prominent (going from being the capital world of a mono-species power to being a 'mere' major member of a broader multi-species superpower... one filled with all sorts of illogical beings, not least those upstart humans) - all of which may have invoked a kind of isolationism, which may have both drawn Vulcans on the homeworld to look more inward culturally, and perhaps have called many colonists to withdraw from a changing galaxy and return home.

In short, as Vulcan became more pacifist, it may have become more reclusive - with tragic consequences once the home world was taken away.

I suppose that's conceivable, but it seems unlikely to me. After all, if there were Vulcans scattered on multiple worlds, they can't all have had the same culture and the same values. They wouldn't have all made the same decision at the same time. As a student of history, I find the idea of a diaspora reversing itself to be highly unlikely. Even if the population of offworld Vulcans diminished in the 100 years between ENT and this, I doubt it would've diminished to 10,000 or less.

To me, it's simply Occam's Razor. The simplest solution is that Spock was upset about losing his planet and his mother and made an exaggerated remark about the condition of his species.

No. I don't "forgive." There's no reason to.

There's always good reason to question the accuracy of a remark that makes no logical sense in the broader context.

The fact that it was an official document, a log, is even more restricting. Spock doesn't make those sorts of errors. And he's certainly not hyperbolic.

Ummm... his mother had just died. You really think that wouldn't affect his precision even slightly? Maybe make him a little bitter about the future?

 

[Nerroth]

Re: Trek XI's implications for future Trek novels (major movie spoiler

The long-range transporter thing could have been 'acquired' from the Dominion - or at least worked out independently once the Federation had documented that the Dominion had shown it could be done (by a power that aren't so far advanced compared to the UFP that it would take as long a time to catch up as it would to, say, the Iconians).

We saw an interstellar subspace transporter used by DaiMon Bok in "Bloodlines" on TNG. We know the technology exists in the early 2370s; it's just not commonly used because it's dangerous and extremely power-intensive. Which isn't inconsistent with its use in the movie, given the extreme urgency of the situation (although the power demands are hard to reconcile with beaming from a shuttlecraft).

The version used by the Dominion gives no indication that it's dangerous - but then, I suppose the Vorta and Founders would hardly want to reveal any such flaw should it exist in their version of the technology.

And that would still leave the difference that having the custom-made systems that the Dominion would have in place to make such technology operable and making do with jury-rigging a more primitive Federation model would make...

I suppose that's conceivable, but it seems unlikely to me. After all, if there were Vulcans scattered on multiple worlds, they can't all have had the same culture and the same values. They wouldn't have all made the same decision at the same time. As a student of history, I find the idea of a diaspora reversing itself to be highly unlikely. Even if the population of offworld Vulcans diminished in the 100 years between ENT and this, I doubt it would've diminished to 10,000 or less.

To me, it's simply Occam's Razor. The simplest solution is that Spock was upset about losing his planet and his mother and made an exaggerated remark about the condition of his species.

Well, I could think of two things:

*It's not guaranteed that even the pre-Federation Vulcans had an overly large series of offworld colonies to begin with.

They may have had just enough to run whatever military outposts or listening stations they deemed necessary, as well as had the odd P'Jem (legitimate or otherwise) to provide cover - but unless they were willing to sink enough manpower, fleet assets and logistical assets into defending them, I'm not sure how many major colonies the Vulcans would have wanted to establish.

They wouldn't be in the business if setting up private colonies the way humans do - and how many worlds can they afford to build up into major colonies while ensuring their security from Andorian or Klingon occupation?


Plus, while there may have been a somewhat notable community on Earth, that may not be overstated - and they seemed to make more of a deal of living in their compound, rather than mix with the locals - and is still probably more than would have chosen to live on Andoria or Tellar Prime or Denobula Triaxa, since none of those worlds serve as the seat of the UFP institutions.


*Even if there were a larger diaspora in the Federation, there's no guarantee that Vulcan society would consider them to be their own.

Take Japan, for example. There are millions of nikkei (Japanese-descent people living outside of the archipelago) worldwide, and have been for over a century - but culturally, they are not quite considered the same way that, say, someone from Ireland or the UK might consider Irish- and British-descent peoples in places like Australia and the United States.

Indeed, since Japan does not permit dual citizenship, those expats are that bit more separated legally than, say, I as an Irish citizen living in Canada would be from my home island.


(Within Japan itself, there are often-hidden issues concerning non-wajin people living there, be they Ainu, Ryukyuan, zainichi Korean or Chinese, Buraku or others - and those who have mixed ancestry don't always get a better deal than a certain fictional half-Vulcan got on the world he grew up on.)


If Japan was wiped off the face of the Earth tomorrow, there would be the wider nikkei community, yes - but the back of the 'home' culture(s) involved would likely be broken, and would be as hard to restore as 'New Vulcan' will likely be.

 

[Geoff Thorne]

Re: Trek XI's implications for future Trek novels (major movie spoiler

And you are confusing the words "confuse" and "conflate."

Taken together, the conversation with Spock Prime and the log entry support a single conclusion: the one outlined here.

This whole "he was so distraught he got it wrong" argument is ludicrous.

A hyperbolic Spock?

Where have you ever seen that?

Nowhere, that's where. Maybe other Vulcans find him to be overly emotional but, by our standards, he's a rock. If he has the presence of mind to record a log, he is, by definition, NOT so freaked out by all the destruction that he gets facts wrong or waxes hyperbolic. This is Spock. Spock.

Only a subsequent film in which he is proven to have misstated the facts can settle this but, with the single film for evidence, there is only one conclusion. He spoke those words soberly and without error.

10000 Vulcans in the known galaxy, including the children and the elderly. Barely enough to restart a civilization. Ergo, endangered species.

This isn't complex.

 

[DimesDan]

Re: Trek XI's implications for future Trek novels (major movie spoiler

Now I might be wrong as I've had a busy weekend and I had a few beers inside me before I saw Star Trek on Friday night but I swear that when SpockPrime and Kirk were having there conversation on Delta Vega that SpockPrime said that he (the past self) was emotionally compromised. Then a few minutes later after Spock stepped down as commander of Enterprise that he was EMOTIONALLY COMPROMISED which would explain his log entry as he was showing emotion because one he is half Human. Two, he just watched his Planet disappear down a black hole and three HIS GOD DAMNED MOTHER DIED IN FRONT OF HIM! Now I don't know about you but if that happened to me I wouldn't be able to fuction, so as he is half human, this would explain his log entry.

 

[Geoff Thorne]

Re: Trek XI's implications for future Trek novels (major movie spoiler

Now I might be wrong as I've had a busy weekend and I had a few beers inside me before I saw Star Trek on Friday night but I swear that when SpockPrime and Kirk were having there conversation on Delta Vega that SpockPrime said that he (the past self) was emotionally compromised. Then a few minutes later after Spock stepped down as commander of Enterprise that he was EMOTIONALLY COMPROMISED which would explain his log entry as he was showing emotion because one he is half Human. Two, he just watched his Planet disappear down a black hole and three HIS GOD DAMNED MOTHER DIED IN FRONT OF HIM! Now I don't know about you but if that happened to me I wouldn't be able to fuction, so as he is half human, this would explain his log entry.

CLB invoked OCCAM'S RAZOR (which also supports the 10000 argument as Spock being accurate is the simpler explanation) but we don't need it.

The more dramatic choice, the more devastating choice is for there to be only 10000 Vulcans left. Therefore it is the superior choice which is what, I'm willing to bet, the filmmakers will go with.

Also, no matter how freaked out he was, if he was aware that there were 10,000,000 Vulcans in the wider galaxy, he would never have described himself as being part of an endangered species. Because that would be totally stupid which is another thing we know Spock is not. He may have been too emotionally compromised in that moment to command a starship but he wasn't so freaked out that he lost the ability to do simple arithmetic.

 

[Nerroth]

Re: Trek XI's implications for future Trek novels (major movie spoiler

Culturally endangered, perhaps - but unless you consider the (apparent) high level of psionic ability found among Vulcans compared to Romulans to be enough to warrant considering them as distinct, the species itself is not quite done just yet...

...which this Spock would know.


However, in a moment such as the one he found himself, I think that saying 'species' instead of 'culture' (not least when you consider the long-standing antagonism in relations between Vulcan and Romulus to this point) is something Spock can be forgiven for, regardless of whether or not there actually are substantial non-Romulan vulcanoid populations left out there in Vulcan's absence.

 

[Geoff Thorne]

Re: Trek XI's implications for future Trek novels (major movie spoiler

Moreover, while the Romulans know they are Vulcan descendants, it comes as a big shock to the Vulcans who had, until the big revelation, considered that tribe to be lost.

There's no way Spock would consider Romulans to be part of the Vulcan diaspora. Until Nero he'd never seen one.

Betazoids and Deltans look human but they aren't.