it was never an excuse.
Nero's hatred of Spock makes no sense.
- Thread starter VOODOOXI
- Start date
it was never an excuse.
Yes it is. Its an excuse that people are using to explain away the badly written and executed Nero-Spock-supernova plot, a la:
"He was insane, insane people do things that don't make sense, that's why the stuff Nero does doesn't make sense... its not at all that Nero was poorly written and the story has plot holes galore."
Yes this is the beauty of this film exactly. I didn't know about Countdown until this bbs and i've been a star trek watcher since the 70's. But those who are intrested or have the background can bring it to the film whilst others will no doubt just move along more or less regardless (I had decided i'd missed the reason but nevertheless continued enjoying the film).
But its ok, i am finding about it all now with you folks
Next time i see it (inevitably), i'll know better. Actually it makes a good discussion as people offer their ideas too.
For example, what if Nero had left progeny behind whereever he was?
But yes, Nero was acting out of the insanity of grief and loss, and it makes an antagonist more intresting and real somehow if you can see yourself in his shoes (i'm sure i could go insane just like him under similar circumstances). His logic was that he felt compelled to make people understand how he felt which is something that motivates many people especially when they are feeling lonely or vulnerable.
The "he was insane" bit would be an excuse if one argued that his actions didn't make sense. They made perfect sense to me though, and I'm not alone in this. So, he was traumatised and angry, and had 25 years in an alien time and in an alien universe to grow that trauma into the reason he was still alive. He had more reason to be angry at Spock than Khan had to be angry at Kirk.
Let's see:
He marooned me and my lover to a planet which became desolate, causing my lover and comrades to die.
OR
He tried to help save Romulus but failed, and now I will destroy every planet in the Federation because of this!
I just thought of another angle in Nero's thinking: Spock made everyone trust him, using his reputation (both personal and with the federation backing him presumably) in an arrogant way to persuade the Romulan leaders to go with his plan.
Now that arrogance rather insensitively overlooked the possiblity of Romulus being destroyed before the plan could be realised and in Nero loosing everything he cared about. Therefore Spock and all that helped him must die or be humbled into how it feels to be on the receiving end of that kind of betrayal. QED
Khan was supposed to have a superior intellect, and yet he was too stupid to see that not only was his exile his own fault, but also that Kirk was neither his baby-sitter, nor responsible in any way for his fate. He hadn't promised to look after those people, in fact he hadn't promised them shit. Blame the Federation if you must, but ultimately, he should have blamed himself for being too stupid to shut his trap before everyone was onto him.
Nero felt betrayed. That's more plausible to me.
Nero felt betrayed. That's more plausible to me.
I just thought of another angle in Nero's thinking: Spock made everyone trust him, using his reputation (both personal and with the federation backing him presumably) in an arrogant way to persuade the Romulan leaders to go with his plan.
Now that arrogance rather insensitively overlooked the possiblity of Romulus being destroyed before the plan could be realised and in Nero loosing everything he cared about. Therefore Spock and all that helped him must die or be humbled into how it feels to be on the receiving end of that kind of betrayal. QED
Of course, that's not what the movie implies, and it still requires several jumps through illogical hoops and generally discarding how science actually works just to move the plot along.
True, but at the very least, even if Khan's initial reactions to take over the ship were wrong, it doesn't preclude him from having a motive for revenge. Kirk bested him, exiled him, and Khan suffered for it. Even though it was his own mistake and arrogance that led him to it, that is at least a rationale.
Nero shouldn't feel betrayed because Spock tried to help him save Romulus and failed. Spock didn't specifically do any wrong towards Nero, and definitely not enough to warrant such a response.
My only real quibble with the film was how Abrams handled Nero. Traditionally in film your main villain either explains his motives and his nefarious plot on screen to some hapless captive (a la Khan in Star Trek II), or as they story unfolds you get to witness the event that triggers his descent into evildoing... Nero never really got that opportunity.
At 1/3 of the way through the film you get some vague references to his wife's death when he's interrogating Pike, but most of his motivations are revealed by a third party (Spock... aka Basil Exposition)... That's a bad storytelling contrivance. All the film needed was about 3-4 minutes of screen time to set up his character arc.
I would have rather have had the film start with a pre-credits sequence of the Narada racing to Romulus as Nero tries in vain to rescue his family. Nero could have an on screen farewell with his loved ones. At that point he learns from her that a Starfleet vessel is supposed to be on it's way to save them...
Suddenly, Romulus star goes supernova... Nero loses communications with his wife
The Narada picks up Spock's small Starfleet vessel (even though we don't know who's on board at this time). On board Spock's ship he picks up Nero's pleas to save Romulus... the unknown (at this time) science officer works frantically to launch the "red matter" and save the planet...
The Starfleet vessel releases the red-matter.... but too late Romulus explodes... Slowly the singularity comes to life and begins to draw in the Narada.
We cut to one final shot on board the Starfleet vessel as a garbled transmission comes in from Nero as he vows to destroy Starfleet and avenge his family.
The Narada disappears into the singularity... Fade Out... Opening credits... and the rest of the film goes as presented. At max that takes up 4-5 minutes of screen time, and it at least sets up Nero's story arc and gives him a solid, well-defined motive.
One of the biggest film making problems I had with the film was the finale. As the Narada is being torn apart we cut to all of these close ups of Nero with mixed expressions of fear, hate, and resignation to his fate. If Nero had a real backstory that had been told either on screen, or by himself there would have been some dramatic weight behind the close ups... but as it stands there was nothing... just the one-dimensional baddie getting his due.
Otherwise a fantastic film and a great re-launch of the franchise!
Yancy
At 1/3 of the way through the film you get some vague references to his wife's death when he's interrogating Pike, but most of his motivations are revealed by a third party (Spock... aka Basil Exposition)... That's a bad storytelling contrivance. All the film needed was about 3-4 minutes of screen time to set up his character arc.
I would have rather have had the film start with a pre-credits sequence of the Narada racing to Romulus as Nero tries in vain to rescue his family. Nero could have an on screen farewell with his loved ones. At that point he learns from her that a Starfleet vessel is supposed to be on it's way to save them...
Suddenly, Romulus star goes supernova... Nero loses communications with his wife
The Narada picks up Spock's small Starfleet vessel (even though we don't know who's on board at this time). On board Spock's ship he picks up Nero's pleas to save Romulus... the unknown (at this time) science officer works frantically to launch the "red matter" and save the planet...
The Starfleet vessel releases the red-matter.... but too late Romulus explodes... Slowly the singularity comes to life and begins to draw in the Narada.
We cut to one final shot on board the Starfleet vessel as a garbled transmission comes in from Nero as he vows to destroy Starfleet and avenge his family.
The Narada disappears into the singularity... Fade Out... Opening credits... and the rest of the film goes as presented. At max that takes up 4-5 minutes of screen time, and it at least sets up Nero's story arc and gives him a solid, well-defined motive.
One of the biggest film making problems I had with the film was the finale. As the Narada is being torn apart we cut to all of these close ups of Nero with mixed expressions of fear, hate, and resignation to his fate. If Nero had a real backstory that had been told either on screen, or by himself there would have been some dramatic weight behind the close ups... but as it stands there was nothing... just the one-dimensional baddie getting his due.
Otherwise a fantastic film and a great re-launch of the franchise!
Yancy
I would have liked to see a bit more of him, as well. You can tell I like him. We'll have to agree to disagree about whether we get his motivations or not, I guess, because both the people who do and those who don't have good arguments. Same thing applies to Khan.
I just thought of another angle in Nero's thinking: Spock made everyone trust him, using his reputation (both personal and with the federation backing him presumably) in an arrogant way to persuade the Romulan leaders to go with his plan.
Now that arrogance rather insensitively overlooked the possiblity of Romulus being destroyed before the plan could be realised and in Nero loosing everything he cared about. Therefore Spock and all that helped him must die or be humbled into how it feels to be on the receiving end of that kind of betrayal. QED
Of course, that's not what the movie implies, and it still requires several jumps through illogical hoops and generally discarding how science actually works just to move the plot along.
yeah, i guess i'm assuming Spock could demonstrate his theory in generally accepted Scientific terms and that was also part of the decision process to go with the plan. But Nero's just an ordinary Joe like me, he wouldn't have thought that formulation mitigated any blame from Spock et al because he wouldn't be able to accept the science over his emotional loss.
I guess its an oblique comment on how people in general may not trust science for objective answers and rather rely on something subjective like astrology instead for their answers.
Basically, Nero just felt fucked over and wanted the person he held responsible to pay for it.... which might also be because Spock was the only one who was left to blame.
Nero does kind of remind of Khan in that way. I had never seen "The Space Seed" before I saw TWOK for the first time, so while Khan did offer a backstory, it was still very unclear who the hell he actually was. OKay, so Kirk marooned you here. Fine, good. Wait, you're from 1996? How the hell does that make sense?! Oh well, now he's putting slugs in people's ears...
Same with Nero. Ultimately, I don't care where he comes from. He's from the future. He's pissed at Spock. Somehow Romulus got destroyed, and he blames the Vulcans and the Humans. That's really all that matters.
Same with Nero. Ultimately, I don't care where he comes from. He's from the future. He's pissed at Spock. Somehow Romulus got destroyed, and he blames the Vulcans and the Humans. That's really all that matters.
Nero needs to man up and take blame for his part. He left his wife on Romulus, instead of taking her off the planet to be safe.
Well that was thick, but he never claimed to be smarter than anyone else.
Maybe he did blame himself for being stupid and directed that at someone else. Like Khan.
Maybe he did blame himself for being stupid and directed that at someone else. Like Khan.
i think if he has a lethal rage his instinct for survival (and perhaps culture and training) would turn it outwards rather than on himself.
That's what I meant.
wow, yeah - now you put it like that, that would have been really good.
Hmm, that's interesting, but not exactly the science I was referring to. The thing about a supernova, is that any who studied the Hobus star would've had a general idea about when it would explode. And when it did finally explode, even if it was five light-years from Romulus, it still probably would've taken 50 years minimum for the shockwave to reach there. With that kind of time in the balance, it seems strange that Spock didn't have time or that he would be the only person sent to prevent it.
These are the kinds of hoops I speak of. The general lack of understanding of science paired with seeming illogic doesn't say much for this villain. Essentially, the writers just weren't very thorough, and used a lazy series of plot devices to move the story along.
Ahh, the Shinzon syndrome: "I don't know who to blame, so maybe I'll blame someone who even tried to help me!!!"
Also, Spock wasn't even around. If Nero wanted to hastily misplace blame, he had 25 years to do it.
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