A lover defends Voyager

[Praetor]

Although I think that the ship was always too brightly lit, and there was never enough grime and disrepair for a ship stranded in the delta quadrant.

I disagree that the ship was too brightly lit. I think the sets felt much darker (and therefore, smaller) than they did when they were TNG's Enterprise-D sets, so that was quite successful.

Regarding 'grime' - that's not exactly what I would call what I wanted to see, although I did want to see a more 'lived in' feel. More like evidence of repairs - some corridor panels different colors than others because some are older and some are newer. Maybe some patch panels here and there. Maybe the occasional burn marks here and there. Maybe even the odd flickering light source.

A relatively clean ship, but a ship that has been used and repaired over time, and on which we see this more because they don't necessarily have the time or resources to 'make everything match' when they fix something, which builds as the seasons go on.

The sets in Voyager weren't very interesting. It was all grey walls and huge chunky laptops. The mess hall didn't look very interesting either. It was all very bland.

I disagree that the sets weren't interesting, even if they were somewhat monochrome. I found the bridge level layout quite interesting, and the mess hall very well done. Engineering was spectacular, particularly in the early seasons when the warp core was multi-colored and not just blue. I mean, it's a starship. It should all be functional. And I'd say they did a very good job turning the TNG sets into something new that was still different and still efficient.

But then again, even TOS had those colored gels they would use to light the ship, and, while many say TOS looks cheesy and too colorful, I think that having a starship's interior that consists of bright colors (including the uniforms) would do a lot of good for the psyche of its crewmembers. By comparison, the Voyager crew might have been going a little space-crazy so much time on such a small, monochromatic ship. (A missed opportunity, if you ask me.)

 

[freak]

I actually loved the big gray walls and the mess hall on Voyager. I also thought the bridge was just awesome. It looks big on camera but I've heard it's really small on set.

 

[Jaespol]

Can someone tell me what was so good about the mess hall?
It was just a grey box with a little area for cooking.
It was also much too small for the entire crew.

 

[JustKate]

I just thought there was a certain...realism to how it looked. It wasn't too shiny or glossy or over-decorated. It looked as though regular people might actually eat there. But maybe that's just me.

 

[Jaespol]

I think Neelix would have decorated it.... if this show was real life...

 

[JustKate]

^ Ooh. Good point. There is such a thing as too much realism, and I think you may have just described one of those times.

 

[Saito S]

I certainly don't hate Voyager. It's the first show I can recall watching from premiere to finale - my first memory of watching DS9 is of seeing the later half of 'Through The Looking Glass,' which is an interesting place to start, to say the least. But the phrase 'missed opportunities' DEFINITELY applies. We can handwave every replaced shuttle and torpedeo and the fairly stable supply of food and resources away, but that's the problem - we HAVE to handwave it away. It was only addressed in episodes where they needed the lack of resources to be a plot point.

Likewise, because of the fact that Voyager is constantly on the move, recurring adversarial species should have been fewer and there should have been a strong presence of recurring characters - we get a number of red-shirt/one-episode characters each week, but the only real recurrances of characters are the Borg kids (three of whom are written out with barely a thought) and Naomi. The show often attempts to give a message of how through their adversity, the crew has become a family. I don't buy it. Yeah, the Senior Staff (plus Seven and Neelix) have become a family, but not the rest of the crew, because they don't have their names in the opening credits.

The biggest offender of that is in the finale - Admiral Janeway says that twenty-six crewmen died on her journey home. Captain Janeway says 'that's an acceptible loss.' Admiral Janeway reveals Seven's among that twenty-six. Captain Janeway essentially says 'All right, crazy - you're driving, take the wheel.' That shows just how highly she rates the rest of the crew.

Likewise, there's an almost casual disrespect towards the ship itself. Yes, I consider having the ship always pristine and shiny and beautiful a disservice, because juryrigging can only do so much - the ship and sets should have been characters in their own rights, Voyager should have worn her scars, and she should have been close to falling apart by the end of the series, because she can't get regular maintenance. Lights should have been dim or out, there should have been some mix-and-match of designs on the hull to indicate where they've had to repair the hull breaches (and from a production standpoint, that would not have been as much of a problem as it used to be, since by about Season Four they were CGI'ing a lot of the exterior shots anyway).

When I look at the premise of Voyager - a ship full of Starfleet and Maquis, the later of whom broke away from the Federation after their homes were uncerimoniously and without the permission of the inhabitants handed over to the Cardassians, lost in the Delta Quadrant, seventy years of travel away from home and those they love - I see the potential for a psychologically deep series, about a ship filled with people who don't like each other, experiencing the hardships of never seeing their families again. I see the potential for a series that show the morally grey aspect of the Star Trek universe - what would you do to survive, how important do your morals become in a life-or-death situation. I would expect a show with this premise to have a number of recurring guest stars on ship, build a bit of a sense of community among the people in charge and the rest of the crew.

Voyager has its merits, but there's so many balls that were dropped (crew conflict, psychological drama, long-term consequences for events) that hamper my enjoyment of them - because to me, the 'what might have been' becomes more interesting than the 'what is.'

I included your entire post because this is almost word for word what I would say about Voyager as a whole (and I also felt similarly about Janeway in "Endgame"). Overall, I did like the show; I think it was more good than bad. But there was way more "bad" than there needed to be, and (IMO of course) way more bad than TNG or DS9 had. And what was frustrating was that at it's core, I think it WAS a good show. If Voyager had just been terrible, top to bottom, if it weren't even close to being good, you could just write it off and not bother with it. But there are so many things that are even more frustrating than if they were "just bad" by the fact that you can see exactly what they were going for, they just missed it by like a few inches. And just when you're ready to throw in the towel, a really good ep suddenly appears, reminding you that the show can actually be really awesome. But it was just so inconsistent, from the extreme ups and downs of the episode writing in general, to the characters (especially Janeway, who I basically like but she drove me crazy sometimes) to the over-reliance on technobabble (which I DO think was noticeably higher than on TNG or - especially - DS9). At least, that's how I view it.

As for this sub-topic about sets and design aesthetics... I personally thought that was one of Voyager's strengths. The external design of the ship itself is pretty good, if not spectacular (the Intrepid-class is one I've always liked, but it's not one of my top favorites), but I really liked the ships interiors. I didn't find them bland or boring, I thought the color scheme made sense, and a lot of the rooms had a certain advanced, slick feel to them that really exemplified what I like about 24th century aesthetics.

A relatively clean ship, but a ship that has been used and repaired over time, and on which we see this more because they don't necessarily have the time or resources to 'make everything match' when they fix something, which builds as the seasons go on.

I agree, especially with the notion that "grime", per se, is not what I wanted to see. Just a greater acknowledgement of the fact that Voyager was all alone in the DQ, without the usual resources of the Federation behind them. This potentially could have really set the show apart from the other shows, but they completely failed to capitalize on it. The ship goes through six kinds of hell in one ep, barely managing to overcome whatever forces are arrayed against it, and walks away victorious, but badly damaged. The next episode, we open with the standard "Captain's log, stardate..." and everything seems fine again, the ship is back in top shape, ready for it's next adventure. On TOS, TNG, DS9, this is fine; we can just assume they visited a starbase (or just returned to the station, in the case of the Defiant) and repaired the ship between eps. On Voyager, this was a glaring flaw. It would have been very cool, IMO, to see the consequences of something the ship went through in one ep carry over for the next several eps.

But then again, even TOS had those colored gels they would use to light the ship, and, while many say TOS looks cheesy and too colorful, I think that having a starship's interior that consists of bright colors (including the uniforms) would do a lot of good for the psyche of its crewmembers. By comparison, the Voyager crew might have been going a little space-crazy so much time on such a small, monochromatic ship. (A missed opportunity, if you ask me.)

I dunno... personally, interior aesthetics-wise, I would be much more likely to go "space-crazy" on the TOS Enterprise than on Voyager.

Can someone tell me what was so good about the mess hall?
It was just a grey box with a little area for cooking.
It was also much too small for the entire crew.

Well... regarding the question "can someone tell me what was good about it"... no, actually, I don't think I can. Aesthetics (boy, I sure am using that word a lot) are really just a matter of opinion. You either like the mess hall, and think it looked like a nice, simple, cozy spot for the crew to relax and that its overall look was in line with the generally advanced, sleek look of Voyager's interiors (as I do), or you think it looked bland and too colorless. Not sure there's anything else I could say to explain "why" I think it's good, I just do.

 

[Brit]

Brit, to answer your question: Tom Paris.
He doesn't strike me as a neat freak, no matter how many women get on his case about it.

I got two words, B'Elanna Torres; I don't think it's a good idea to cross the Klingon you're sleeping with.

Brit

 

[Silvercrest]

Anyway, no one addressed my question about Threshold. What makes it so horrendously bad that it is considered one of the worst episodes of all time?

Tom Paris and Captain Janeway turned into lizards and had little lizard babies before being turned back into human beings via magic. Not to mention how the episode has absolutely no understanding of evolutionary biology.

Coming into this one a little late, but it has even more and bigger flaws that I've just gotta point out. One of them is a plausibility issue: You've got this impossible technological concept, "Warp 10", which the best Starfleet engineers decided couldn't be done. Neelix steps in, offers one bit of advice, and VOILA! Voyager's engineers can suddenly do it. No advanced designs, no exotic hardware, no prototype shuttle that was built for the purpose. Wow, that was difficult!

Even if you're all right with that, here's a major plot problem: Okay, traveling at Warp 10 turns you into a lizard. Big deal. Apparently the Doctor can restore you to human with no trouble. So why not use the Warp 10 technology to get back to the Federation and let the Federation medics heal everyone as soon as they arrive? YOU'VE GOT THE TECHNOLOGY, NOW USE IT TO GO HOME!! There's nothing stated onscreen for why they can't do that. Talk about lack of consequences for an episode...

 

[Praetor]

Somehow, I always imagined B'Elanna to be the messy type.

As for this sub-topic about sets and design aesthetics... I personally thought that was one of Voyager's strengths. The external design of the ship itself is pretty good, if not spectacular (the Intrepid-class is one I've always liked, but it's not one of my top favorites), but I really liked the ships interiors. I didn't find them bland or boring, I thought the color scheme made sense, and a lot of the rooms had a certain advanced, slick feel to them that really exemplified what I like about 24th century aesthetics.

Agreed. The Voyager design actually is one of my top favorites - she looks fast without looking terribly aggressive, which is a difficult balance IMO.

A relatively clean ship, but a ship that has been used and repaired over time, and on which we see this more because they don't necessarily have the time or resources to 'make everything match' when they fix something, which builds as the seasons go on.

I agree, especially with the notion that "grime", per se, is not what I wanted to see. Just a greater acknowledgement of the fact that Voyager was all alone in the DQ, without the usual resources of the Federation behind them. This potentially could have really set the show apart from the other shows, but they completely failed to capitalize on it. The ship goes through six kinds of hell in one ep, barely managing to overcome whatever forces are arrayed against it, and walks away victorious, but badly damaged. The next episode, we open with the standard "Captain's log, stardate..." and everything seems fine again, the ship is back in top shape, ready for it's next adventure. On TOS, TNG, DS9, this is fine; we can just assume they visited a starbase (or just returned to the station, in the case of the Defiant) and repaired the ship between eps. On Voyager, this was a glaring flaw. It would have been very cool, IMO, to see the consequences of something the ship went through in one ep carry over for the next several eps.

Agreed to your agreement.

Imagine, for example, if the incident where the ship was penetrated by the Kazon torpedo ship ('Basics, Part I,' was it?) had been played as the first big 'wound' that the crew had been unable to completely fix, and the ship had a 'scare' there from then on for the rest of the series. Not a big or obvious scar, but one that is noticeable. Imagine the emotional impact of that on the crew, too; we can't fix our ship, are we really going to make it home?

IMO, that would have been awesome, and as beautiful as that physical model was, I see no reason why it wouldn't have been possible to 'grunge' it up as the show went along. Build on that first scar. Have some charring and indeed weathering as time went on.

But then again, even TOS had those colored gels they would use to light the ship, and, while many say TOS looks cheesy and too colorful, I think that having a starship's interior that consists of bright colors (including the uniforms) would do a lot of good for the psyche of its crewmembers. By comparison, the Voyager crew might have been going a little space-crazy so much time on such a small, monochromatic ship. (A missed opportunity, if you ask me.)

I dunno... personally, interior aesthetics-wise, I would be much more likely to go "space-crazy" on the TOS Enterprise than on Voyager.

It could come off like a crazy acid trip after a while...

Can someone tell me what was so good about the mess hall?
It was just a grey box with a little area for cooking.
It was also much too small for the entire crew.

Well... regarding the question "can someone tell me what was good about it"... no, actually, I don't think I can. Aesthetics (boy, I sure am using that word a lot) are really just a matter of opinion. You either like the mess hall, and think it looked like a nice, simple, cozy spot for the crew to relax and that its overall look was in line with the generally advanced, sleek look of Voyager's interiors (as I do), or you think it looked bland and too colorless. Not sure there's anything else I could say to explain "why" I think it's good, I just do.

I tend to agree with that too. And, yes, it is a bit small - even smaller than Ten-Forward on TNG. I'd say that's part dramatic concession, part attept to make the Voyager feel smaller. But in the Trekverse I wouldn't imagine it was designed for everyone to eat in there at once, either. Under ordinary circumstances, it wouldn't have been an important place - people would have likely used their replicators in their own quarters. But the ended up ripping out those replicators in the mess hall from the pilot and Neelix made himself a kitchen.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Given what little i know about naval traditioj, I assumed that the "kitchen" used to eb the Captians Mess... though it did seem a little small for that.

I always liked the term replomat whenthey used it on DS9.

 

[kimc]

What happened to the Prehensile Plant?

It's alive and well in facfic:

http://www.lisard.co.uk/fic/jetpp.html

Someday I'll be able to resist but apparently that day isn't today.

 

[Lynx]

I have to make a few comments to this thread.

Personally I love Voyager in a way, despite it's flaws and the sloppy writing. I love the main characters who I still regard as Star Trek's best and I love the original premise of the show about ship lost in unknown space very far away from home and how the Starfleet and Maquis crew had to co-operate to get home.

And believe me, I can be quick when it comes to defend the series against outside bashing if necessary.

But I must admit that I do find a lot of flaws in the series. Even when I watch my beloved seasons 1-3, I see a lot of things which makes me think "why do they come up with that?" or "I would have done this different".

Like the fact that according to the stardates, it took over a month between the events in "Caretaker" and "Parallax". Dit it really take a month for them to decide who would be Chief Engineer? If not, why were they so sloppy about the stardates, considering the fact that they should know that the Trek fans love to nitpick such things about continuity. Note also that the stardates for "Lifesigns" and "Investigations" are wrong. There are lots of such errors, if I'm not wrong they do screw up the whole thing in "Homestead" (I haven't watched that episode).

Kes's lifespan was ridiculous. A species with such short lifespan would never develope to more than primates. Not to mention the "one-child syndrome".

I won't go for the Starfleet-Maquis conflict because I actually think that it was handled pretty good. It was logic that the two crews should cooperate to get home. But I'm a bit sceptical to Janeway's decision to "make it a Stafleet crew" considering the fact that Neelix or Kes were never made Starfleet personel even if they probably agreed to follow Starfleet rules. The most logical thing would have been to have the same chain of command as they had on Deep Space Nine where Starfleet and Bajoran crews did run the station.

I can actually buy the not-too-damaged ship and the waste of shuttles and torpedoes too if it had been carefully explained. OK, "The Shuttle and Torpedo Building Team" is a joke among us, a joke which I have often used. But imagine if they had come up with something like that, some explanations about a team re-building such things. It would have made some sense.

The time it took to pass through Kazon space was a bit exaggerated. What they should have done was to strand them on "The 37's planet" for some time and most of the Kazon adventures should have taken place during that time.

Chakotay should have had more screen time, just like Riker on TNG. I mean, they had a great character who they never really used.

There are more things than that, a lot of small things which I find in many episodes in seasons 1-3. And I'm not gonna go into the Kes-Seven debate here (other than to state that if they had to add Seven, then all the origina main characters should have remained), how the premise of the series was wasted when they got in touch with Earth already in season 4, the over-use of the Borg, the concentration on three main characters in the later seasons and so on.

I just want to state that Voyager was a great series who could have been much better. Unfortunately there were too many flaws, small errors and other not so good things due to sloppy writiing.

Still we love it!

The series must have a lot of qualities, especially when it comes to the characters to make so many of us love it, despite the many flaws. I'm one of those people who can criticize a lot of it, still I regard it as a favorite and believe me, it's not only about Kes. I have some strange affection to the other characters and certain aspects of the show as well.

As I have written on my website:

Voyager as a concept was great. The series had so much potential and could have been much better than it was. And it must be some credit to Voyager that even the most dissapointed fans stayed on until the end because of the affection for the characters and the show itself. If the greatness of a series is measured by the loyalty of the fans, then Voyager is the greatest series ever.

So what was good with it? I would like to point out the characters, the original premise for the show and a certain atmosphere. The inter-action between the characters were great, especially in the first seasons when all of the main characters did have their share in the action. There were also some really great episodes, especially in season 2.

I guess that Voyager can be compared to a certain kind of rock bands, those who may not become superstars, who may not earn millions, who may not be well-known to the whole world and who may have some flaws but despite that get some cult status and a lot of loyal followers who stay with them for years to come. In other words, something special which make us love them in some special way.

 

[Jaespol]

I thought Voyager's shape was too rounded, it looked bad from some angles.
Also it never made sense how the Kazon caught up with Voyager, never ever made sense. Seska would have been left far behind them as soon as she left the ship.
And it still annoys me how the second set of eyes in my avatar left the show :'(

 

[plague]

Most military establishments that I know about put a premium on "cleanliness". Clutter, dirt, and grime are frowned upon, hence regular inspections. I don't think Starfleet would have reacted any differently no matter where in the galaxy a ship was. Couple that with a need for raw materials and you get "if you don't use it, recycle it."

At the risk of being accused of being sexist I'll add this, Voyager was ran by two women and what's to say that these two women didn't tolerate grunge and grime any more that some if not most of your mothers do.

Yes, the navy people are constantly painting, and the boatswain's mates do a good job. However, I have to imagine that they get a little behind when they're actually off at sea for longer than expected?

If they have the time to keep things in order as much as when they're at port, I imagine that they weren't hurting for resources nearly as much as they complained.

Although I think that the ship was always too brightly lit, and there was never enough grime and disrepair for a ship stranded in the delta quadrant.

Regarding 'grime' - that's not exactly what I would call what I wanted to see, although I did want to see a more 'lived in' feel. More like evidence of repairs - some corridor panels different colors than others because some are older and some are newer. Maybe some patch panels here and there. Maybe the occasional burn marks here and there. Maybe even the odd flickering light source.

That's the "disrepair" part of my statement.

 

[DWF]

Kes's lifespan was ridiculous. A species with such short lifespan would never develope to more than primates. Not to mention the "one-child syndrome".

I imagine Vulcan could make similar comments about humanity.

 

[Brit]

I imagine that they weren't hurting for resources nearly as much as they complained.

I had never thought about a certain angle until my daughter pointed out that in all likelihood the more complex the molecule, the more power it would take to replicate said molecule. Or that it would take more power and more of whatever resource they had to produce complex organic things like foods and medicines than say metals and such.

It could have been far easier to replicate most parts for Voyager than it was to produce the food the crew needed to be able to run her which could have been the reasoning for replicator rationing.

And finally, I am pretty sure that both B'Elanna and Kathryn and even the rest of the crew knew that Voyager would last longer if they simply took care of her.

Brit

 

[Guy Gardener]

Kes's lifespan was ridiculous. A species with such short lifespan would never develope to more than primates. Not to mention the "one-child syndrome".

I imagine Vulcan could make similar comments about humanity.

And how would they be wrong?

besides, we don't know what state the ocampa were in a thousand years earlier before the nacene showed up and destroyed their planet... It could have looked like a renaissance fair.

 

[exodus]

What happened to the Prehensile Plant?

It's alive and well in facfic:

http://www.lisard.co.uk/fic/jetpp.html

Someday I'll be able to resist but apparently that day isn't today.

Quote of the day:

The Prehensile Plant got more touchy feely action with our Captain than Chakotay has done since Season 3.

Brit: Point taken.

Jaespol: Warp signature. Voyager is the only ship in that quaderant with a Federation warp signature. Plus, you saw in "Distant Origin" that they leave a trail of evidence due to their trading & leaving things behind. The Kazon also have an information network thru all those they trade & bully.

..or to make it even simplier: if you drive thru the ghetto in a tricked out yellow Mustang. Everybody is going to notice you.

 

[DGCatAniSiri]

Kes's lifespan was ridiculous. A species with such short lifespan would never develope to more than primates. Not to mention the "one-child syndrome".

I imagine Vulcan could make similar comments about humanity.

A nine year lifespan. With one child per pregnancy. Doing the math, they'd be extinct long before now, simply becuase two Ocampa only make one Ocampa per generation - that means half the population dies each generation.

In contrast, humans live on average around eighty years and can have multiple children.

The Vulcans would have no logical basis for similar comments about humanity, just because their average lifespan is at least twice as long as a human's - the average human lives nine times as long as an Ocampa.