And Leybenzon gets turned into a straight up asshole.
Some 'Before Dishonor' observations....*Spoilers*
- Thread starter Hoshi_Mayweather
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And Leybenzon gets turned into a straight up asshole.
Exes?
Bosses and/or volunteer committee members.
Actually, in the initial reports about the three-year jump, Shelby was a Commodore. It seems it was in the editorial phase they decided on a less 23rd century rank.
That too. Anyone that eager to torture someone, let alone a fellow officer, shouldn't be allowed anywhere near a dull butter knife, never mind head of security.
Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
I agree with you that the newbies went extreme in Before Dishonor. But I'm not sure where you saw megalomania in T'Lana's behavior. I read the book a year ago so I can't remember everything that happened in it. Could you provide an example or two of it.
I do agree with others that Leybenzon was turned into an asshole and Kadohata was made into a traitor. If Kadohata had served with Picard and the crew before, I thought she would've trusted them more and given them the benefit of the doubt. Leybenzon didn't strike me as unique or interesting character, a martinet, in Q & A, and then in Before Dishonor he turned into a sneeering bully. I can see why he left the ship, but I was hoping they would keep T'Lana.
I had another read of this last night, it's a very odd book. The first problem is the tone, it reads like a new frontier book, everyone is wise-cracking etc etc - that's fine off in that side universe but it plays wrong as a part that's suppose to be part of the on-going narrative that was being played out at that time.
Worse the whole mutiny thing fails flat because it's picard and crew AND Spock vs some nobodies... please...
Worse the whole mutiny thing fails flat because it's picard and crew AND Spock vs some nobodies... please...
Megalomania is the wrong word. Her behavior in BD was more akin to pathological narcissism -- the unquestioning assumption that she must be absolutely right about everything and is incapable of error.
I still don't get why people keep saying that when she was the only one who ultimately changed her mind and rejoined Picard's side. Whatever happened to forgiveness? Everyone makes mistakes, but Kadohata learned from hers and corrected them. Surely she deserves credit for that.
I've stated on many other posts before that I'm not a Kadohata fan. But I think her decision making was more questionable because she personally knew Picard and most of the senior staff, and since she had been written in retroactively as a member of the crew, I'm assuming she had seen him break or bend the rules quite a few times and usually for the right reasons. Why couldn't she see that this time? Why did she so easily join the mutiny and then reverse course? It made her look even more weak in my eyes.
T'Lana and Leybenzon were new to the ship. They didn't know Picard. Might not have been familiar with his record, and certainly weren't familiar with him on a personal level. Kadohata showed a shocking lack of trust in her commanding officer and though it might be forgivable, if I was Picard, etc., I wouldn't forget it.
T'Lana and Leybenzon were new to the ship. They didn't know Picard. Might not have been familiar with his record, and certainly weren't familiar with him on a personal level. Kadohata showed a shocking lack of trust in her commanding officer and though it might be forgivable, if I was Picard, etc., I wouldn't forget it.
That's probably a better way of phrasing it, although I'd consider belief in one's own inerrancy to be a type of delusion of grandeur.
Forgiveness is nice, and fits Picard's character... but where I'm concerned, it can't make up for the egregiousness of the offense. Kadohata's spectacular lack of judgment nearly led to the death of billions of people. Never mind trust; ultimately, the bigger picture must outweight loyalty to any one person. The problem is that she picked an option guaranteed to failure by all experts on the matter over one with a slim chance of success. Not a desireable situation by any means, but the choice should have been clear. I wouldn't trust anybody on my ship to make decisions after that kind of suicidal screw-up.
I need that past history to justify why she's still on the ship; presumably, she must have served Picard well and loyally for many years now, and he looks on her involvement in the usurpation of the ship as one (notable!) mistake amongst those years of service; it's also easier to welcome back someone who was already a friend, or at least companion, after a betrayal than a stranger. Of course, that's from Picard's perspective--from my persepctive, I've just been introduced to this character who almost as soon as she showed up did something stupendously idiotic. I'm reading Destiny #1 even now, and every time she shows up I can't help but think: "Why are you still here, moron?" The character is damaged goods.
Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
The 2 best scenes in this train wreck are....
1) When Worf says he cannot take command because "his foot is asleep". Then Picard asks him about it later, and Worf says "It's painful"
2) When asked how long they had been there, Seven responds "7 hours". Spock immedietly follows her up with "and 32 minutes" (or something like that). And ofcourse, Seven follows it up with "and 20 seconds".... It was classic.
1) When Worf says he cannot take command because "his foot is asleep". Then Picard asks him about it later, and Worf says "It's painful"
2) When asked how long they had been there, Seven responds "7 hours". Spock immedietly follows her up with "and 32 minutes" (or something like that). And ofcourse, Seven follows it up with "and 20 seconds".... It was classic.
But the books also emphasized that Miranda had recently returned from giving birth to twins, may have been suffering post-natal depression or, at the very least, separation anxiety. As any mother will tell you, that life-changing stuff can suddenly make going back to your old life very difficult. She was also trying to hold down both of Data's previous positions on the ship.
As Miranda's story first started to unfold - was it in "Resistance"? - I kept wondering, "Why are you not at home with your new babies?", or "Why is your family not onboard?", and "Do they still have family units on the Enterprise-E"? As a single male observer, I probably had no right to pass judgment upon a new mother's career choices, but wasn't that storyline supposed to be getting the readers to ponder such questions?
Despite all previous loyalty to Picard, Miranda was once again a newcomer on the ship; naturally, she found herself bonding with the other newcomers. Even flirting with one, and feeling guilty about it later. Miranda naturally wanted to obey Starfleet's orders - they were coming directly from two admirals, and there was her captain and the rest of his command crew committing mutiny against Starfleet orders. Eventually, her loyalty to Picard won out.
Not the forgiving type, are you?
Worked with any career mothers?
Therin you make some good points, but I think that the writers made a point to emphasize how much the senior staff knew and liked Kadohata, and how even Data recommended her to take over as ops officer, which signals to me that she knew the senior staff well enough to give them the benefit of the doubt.
She was in the midst of a lot of personal change and if I recall she was on the ENT-D and hadn't been on the E, so there was a lot of new people, but Picard, Worf, Geordi, and Dr. Crusher remained, and Picard was asking her to trust him and she didn't.
Similar to what Trent said, Kadohata was a new character to me so I thought her decision-making was very suspect particularly after the pains that were taken to link her to the senior staff.
She was in the midst of a lot of personal change and if I recall she was on the ENT-D and hadn't been on the E, so there was a lot of new people, but Picard, Worf, Geordi, and Dr. Crusher remained, and Picard was asking her to trust him and she didn't.
Similar to what Trent said, Kadohata was a new character to me so I thought her decision-making was very suspect particularly after the pains that were taken to link her to the senior staff.
Exactly. Making her dilemma even worse.
It shouldn't have been much of a dilemma. And her second betrayal of T'Lana and Leybenzon only made the character look weaker. At least T'Lana and Leybenzon could claim the courage of their convictions.
You're asking for character dilemmas to be toned down?
I'm guessing that we were supposed to put ourselves in Miranda's shoes. She certainly didn't know whether her choices were going to be right or wrong when she started making them.
What would you do in a job situation where your supervisor tells you to do one thing and two company directors order you to do the exact opposite? And you must decide immediately, with all eyes watching you. It's a Kobayashi Maru scenario.
Indeed. That was how I explained her erratic behavior when I wrote Greater Than the Sum -- as a result of excessive stress from being expected to do not just two, but three jobs at once (second officer, ops manager, and science officer). Data could handle that load, but it was too much to ask of a human officer and the stress and fatigue compromised her judgment.
Exactly. People talk about her loyalty to Picard, but they seem to forget that the Enterprise is not a freebooter, it's a vessel in Starfleet. Its crew are trained to be loyal, not merely to one man, but to the entire organization and its chain of command. Betraying that chain of command to stand by one officer is not an easy decision to make.
All of this stuff could have made for great character conflict and drama... had it actually been in Before Dishonor.
You're asking for character dilemmas to be toned down?
I'm guessing that we were supposed to put ourselves in Miranda's shoes. She certainly didn't know whether her choices were going to be right or wrong when she started making them.
What would you do in a job situation where your supervisor tells you to do one thing and two company directors order you to do the exact opposite? And you must decide immediately, with all eyes watching you. It's a Kobayashi Maru scenario.
I like character conflict and dilemma, I'm not asking for it to be toned down. I don't think it should've been a dilemma for Kadohata because I think she should've sided with Picard from the jump. What's the point of making a big deal about her being previously on the ENT-D if she balks at backing him on something so critical, so personal to him? In "First Contact" he had shown that he knew the Borg like no other, until Janeway/Voyager crew returned, and that he had been right. He had also proven himself in "Insurrection", etc. Now, those two examples happened on the E, but I'm guessing Kadohata kept in touch with the crew during that time at least a little bit.
In the Star Trek world, we've seen time and again how the crew will break the rules to back a friend. The TOS crew was notorious for it. And the other crews weren't too shabby in that regard. I think it did a disservice to Kadohata's character, or my estimation of her, to have her go against Picard. But then, she couldn't even maintain that and she backtracked again.