Some 'Before Dishonor' observations....*Spoilers*

[Christopher]

I like character conflict and dilemma, I'm not asking for it to be toned down. I don't think it should've been a dilemma for Kadohata because I think she should've sided with Picard from the jump. What's the point of making a big deal about her being previously on the ENT-D if she balks at backing him on something so critical, so personal to him?

That's too simplistic. Kadohata isn't solely a member of the Enterprise crew, she's a member of Starfleet. She swore her allegiance to Starfleet. She values what it represents and she's loyal to its chain of command. She spent four years in the Academy training to develop that loyalty. She was loyal to Starfleet for years before she ever met Jean-Luc Picard.

The whole point of this situation was that it was a dilemma for the crew. It wasn't "us vs. them." Nechayev and Jellico weren't the enemy, they were fellow members of Starfleet. The crew was facing a situation where their loyalty was divided, where they had to choose between two sides that both deserved their allegiance and both had good arguments on their side. That shouldn't be a pat, simple choice for any Starfleet officer to make. Picard wrestled with his own conscience before choosing to defy the superiors he'd sworn his loyalty to. It would be illogical to expect any other Enterprise crewmembers to be any less divided, and it would be illogical to expect them all to come down on the same side, or to side against Picard only if they had personal failings of some sort. This wasn't just a situation about personal loyalty or tribal allegiance. Their own organization was divided and there was no obvious right or wrong path to take. It's perfectly plausible that different crewmembers with equally good intentions and equal loyalty to Picard would still end up on different sides of the decision.

In "First Contact" he had shown that he knew the Borg like no other, until Janeway/Voyager crew returned, and that he had been right. He had also proven himself in "Insurrection", etc. Now, those two examples happened on the E, but I'm guessing Kadohata kept in touch with the crew during that time at least a little bit.

And how many crises did Admirals Nechayev and Jellico save the Federation from? How many decisions have they made over their careers that were equally right? Sure, Jellico hasn't always been portrayed as the nicest guy (at least not in Peter David's fiction), but he couldn't have gotten where he is without earning it. Nechayev and Jellico may have earned Kadohata's loyalty just as legitimately as Picard did. She may not have served on the same starship with them, but they're part of the same organization, the same family. At the very least, she's been conditioned throughout her whole career to respect the rank, to respect the chain of command. However much personal respect she had for Picard, he was the one committing mutiny, the one engaged in overtly criminal behavior. That's not something you just casually go along with.

Don't forget we're talking about an essentially military organization. The training is to obey even when you disagree. You can debate, you can protest, but when an order comes down, you follow it whether you like it or not. Miranda followed legitimate orders from her superiors, orders which Picard had defied. However noble Picard's ends were, his means were illegal. And that meant Miranda had a duty to arrest him. It's not just about personal feelings.

Besides, we know in retrospect that Picard was right, but she couldn't know that at the time. It's easy to be a Monday morning quarterback, but she didn't have the luxury of that kind of certainty. There was no clear, good solution, just a choice between two insane, desperate plans. If anything, Picard's plan was the more insane and desperate one, since he had no reason to believe that reactivating the Doomsday Machine could actually work.

In the Star Trek world, we've seen time and again how the crew will break the rules to back a friend. The TOS crew was notorious for it.

That's a false caricature. Spock did it in "The Menagerie," Kirk did it in "Amok Time" and The Search for Spock, McCoy did it in "The Empath," and that's about it. Four times. The rest of the time, they followed the chain of command even when they didn't like it. In "The Galileo Seven," Kirk followed a (silly) standing order to observe a scientific phenomenon even though he was on an urgent mission to deliver medicines, and later he reluctantly but obediently followed Commissioner Ferris's order to abandon his crewmembers. He did all he could to bend the letter of the orders, but he still would have left Spock and McCoy to die because it was what he was ordered to do.

If they didn't follow their orders most of the time, they would've been thrown out of the service or into the brig before very long at all. It's totally wrong, and totally unfair to the characters, to reduce them to renegades who routinely betray their oaths and their responsibilities to the greater organization for the sake of personal feelings.

I think it did a disservice to Kadohata's character, or my estimation of her, to have her go against Picard. But then, she couldn't even maintain that and she backtracked again.

I think it would've done her a greater disservice to portray her as someone who would casually betray her solemn oath to Starfleet.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

All of this stuff could have made for great character conflict and drama... had it actually been in Before Dishonor.

I found it in my copy.

Really?

If there's a book screaming out for a fan remix, it's Before Dishonor.

 

[DarKush]

Chris I had no problem at all with the crew having divided loyalties or struggling with them. I had no problem with T'Lana or Leybenzon coming down against Picard. I did have issues with Kadohata taking that tack because I thought she should've joined with Geordi, Worf, Crusher, and Picard, since she knew them and had more reason to trust their judgment than did T'Lana or Leybenzon. Even in a military organization, personal ties do matter. And we're talking about a fictional futuristic military organization here that might allow for greater flexibility in a lot of matters.

I disagree that just because Jellico or Nechayev is an admiral they 'earned' that post. We can't be certain how they got there. I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt, but Starfleet has always had its share of incompetent or dirty admirals. And the audience has seen Picard in action for almost 20 years, he's the guy we identify with and sympathize with, and we trust.

Both Jellico and Nechayev have played antagonistic or oppositional roles to Picard and crew, and did so once again in Before Dishonor. So, who is the reader supposed to go with, Picard who has been proven right on the Borg before, or them? Particularly for Kadohata who knew the man, perhaps more than she knew Jellico or Nechayev. Also Geordi, Worf, Crusher had just as much to lose backing Picard, had worked just a hard to achieve their positions, but they put enough trust in him to pull them through and Kadohata didn't. Ultimately Kadohata did betray her oath to Starfleet, after betraying her 'friends' among the senior staff.

As for the TOS crew, in Star Trek III, VI, the TOS crew broke the rules. In VOY's "Flashback", Sulu defied orders to rescue Kirk and McCoy despite the possible sparking of an interstellar war.

 

[Christopher]

Chris I had no problem at all with the crew having divided loyalties or struggling with them. I had no problem with T'Lana or Leybenzon coming down against Picard. I did have issues with Kadohata taking that tack because I thought she should've joined with Geordi, Worf, Crusher, and Picard, since she knew them and had more reason to trust their judgment than did T'Lana or Leybenzon. Even in a military organization, personal ties do matter.

Did she really know them that well, though? Yes, she'd been part of the crew for years, but that's a crew of over 1000 people, and we never actually saw her associating with the command crew. Picard was close to his department heads, to the core group of the series, but he was fairly aloof with the rest of the crew. And he didn't even socialize much with his core crew until the end of "All Good Things...". Riker, as the first officer, was the one who dealt with the rank-and-file crew the most. And Data was Kadohata's direct superior; she reported to him and then he reported to Picard. (How well do you know your boss's boss?) She probably knew Riker and Data, and maybe Geordi, considerably better than she knew Picard, Worf, or Crusher. Kadohata, and much of the rank-and-file crew, probably saw Picard as a remote, somewhat forbidding figure. I don't think it's reasonable to assume that every one of them would automatically revere him as a beloved uncle or something.

I disagree that just because Jellico or Nechayev is an admiral they 'earned' that post. We can't be certain how they got there. I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt, but Starfleet has always had its share of incompetent or dirty admirals.

That doesn't mean it doesn't have gifted and worthwhile admirals too. That doesn't mean it's valid to assume that a Starfleet officer has no reason to trust the judgment of her admirals at least as much as that of her captain.

And the audience has seen Picard in action for almost 20 years, he's the guy we identify with and sympathize with, and we trust.

That is exactly my point. We are television viewers. We get a biased and limited view of what goes on in Starfleet. We can't assume that the experiences and perceptions of someone who's actually living and working in Starfleet would be the same as our own. To us, Picard is the hero, the one the stories all center on. In-universe, he's one captain out of many, and there are probably plenty of other captains and admirals whose decisions have saved whole worlds and whose judgment is deserving of respect.

Also, as television viewers, we have no incentive for allegiance other than purely personal sentiment. All your arguments are grounded exclusively in personal loyalty and emotion, which is the perspective of a fan of a television show. It's not the perspective of an officer within Starfleet. For an officer, duty would be at least as great a concern as personal loyalty. As long as you fail to consider the demands of duty, you're not judging Miranda's choices fairly.

As for the TOS crew, in Star Trek III, VI, the TOS crew broke the rules. In VOY's "Flashback", Sulu defied orders to rescue Kirk and McCoy despite the possible sparking of an interstellar war.

Yes, I acknowledge that it happened rarely, in extreme cases. My point is that it wasn't done casually and routinely. If all you can drum up is a single example, you're proving my point, not refuting it.

 

[Trent Roman]

The crew was facing a situation where their loyalty was divided, where they had to choose between two sides that both deserved their allegiance and both had good arguments on their side.

"Good arguments"? What part of 'come here and die' did you find suasive?

Their own organization was divided and there was no obvious right or wrong path to take.

Of course there was. A plan with a slim chance of success is still better than a course of action (it would be an exagerration to call it a 'plan') guaranteed to failure. 0.0001% > 0.

And how many crises did Admirals Nechayev and Jellico save the Federation from? How many decisions have they made over their careers that were equally right?

Nechayev and Jellico's orders were idiotic and suicidal, clearly stemming from the fear and desperation of their situation than any considered, logical approach to the problem. It's to their discredit that Kadohata and the rest of her gang failed to recognize this. Surely there must be some provision about the legitimacy of orders given while someone has a gun to the superior officers' head; and even if there isn't, it still makes no sense to follow such nonsensical orders when the lives of billions are on the line. It's certainly a shame that Nechayev and Jellico, who had, on the show, been shown competant however muleheaded, were here presented as inept, cowardly, and callous; again, one can ascribe such behaviour to their extreme circumstances, but I'd rather just recognize it as part of the general characterization clusterfuck that was Before Dishonor and ignore the hell out of it going forward.

Don't forget we're talking about an essentially military organization. The training is to obey even when you disagree. You can debate, you can protest, but when an order comes down, you follow it whether you like it or not.

Gee. Court-martial for disobeying orders vs. the annihilation of all life on Earth and probably a subsequent rampage across the rest of Federation space. Tough call.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[DarKush]

Chris,

If the situation in Before Dishonor didn't qualify for extremely rare than what would? Sure, Kadohata is a Starfleet officer, but she's also a human being. You can't simply eliminate emotion and personal loyalty from the equation, particularly when Star Trek has based a lot of questionable decisions by its characters over the years just on those things. For example, what was driving Admiral Janeway's actions in "Endgame" except for emotion and personal loyalty? And wasn't Dr. McCoy and Kirk always trying to get Spock, and Archer and Trip, always trying to get T'Pol, to engage their emotions more, to let it factor into their decision making? There is a widespread precedent for such behavior throughout Trek.

Sometimes it was frowned upon or reprimanded, at other times it was praised, as was Kirk's manipulation of the Kobayashi Maru test.

I think Kadohata's direct relationship to the crew hasn't been fully fleshed out, so you might have a point there. Then again, you might not. She certainly seemed pretty warm towards all the senior staff and they in turn. Though Picard might not have played poker with the senior staff and was a remote figure for many, he still inspired intense loyalty and even affection from his crew, particularly his senior staff. I doubt Kadohata would want to return to the Enterprise, especially after Data's death, if she had felt the atmosphere was forbidding before.

 

[William Leisner]

I really find it surprising that so many are of the opinion that Kadohata should have automatically trusted Picard's decision not to join the fleet. I mean, the last time the Borg had threatened Earth, the senior staff was stunned that they weren't going to get to be in the thick of a hopeless slaughter, and were more than happy to say "to hell with our orders" to stay on the NZ. Then, mere months earlier, when Janeway had told Picard to stay away from the new Borg cube, no one made a peep about flying into the thick of things rather than keeping a safe distance. But this time, Picard is running in the opposite direction? In defiance of the chain of command? On the achingly slim chance that this relic might help? The unbelievable thing is that so few objected.

I mean, seriously? The idea of going to Trophy World to retrieve the planet killer -- after it had been killed by Decker and Kirk, after it had been intently studied at The Yard, and after it was deemed so inert that they were going to built a goddamned gift shop next to it -- instead of doing what they had automatically done for every other Borg threat? Outside of a Peter David novel, it is just ludicrous on its face. Inside a PAD novel... it's still a century-old relic that, if my memories of Vendetta are correct, wasn't actually a perfect match for the newly-arrived machine in the first place. It had been studied for a century, and again, was so harmless that they put it on overpriced coffee cups and keychains. Realistically, Spock should have been right at the front of the crowd telling Picard, "Dude, dis shit ain't fuckin' logical."

 

[Christopher]

Chris,

If the situation in Before Dishonor didn't qualify for extremely rare than what would? Sure, Kadohata is a Starfleet officer, but she's also a human being. You can't simply eliminate emotion and personal loyalty from the equation, particularly when Star Trek has based a lot of questionable decisions by its characters over the years just on those things.

And you can't simply eliminate duty from the equation. Just because she feels loyalty toward Picard, that doesn't guarantee that she would be absolutely, irresistibly compelled to commit mutiny in order to help Picard carry out a plan that, as Bill explained, was staggeringly insane and unlikely to do the tiniest bit of good. Yes, she has a heart, but she has a brain too.

And you're still refusing to contemplate the possibility that Picard is not the only person she's loyal to. I've pointed out time and again -- she's loyal to all of Starfleet. You're refusing to consider that aspect of her loyalty, that part of her emotion that makes her believe in Starfleet and what it stands for. I'm not eliminating emotion and loyalty from the equation at all. I'm including them in the context of an equation that also includes a lot of other variables whose existence you're failing to take into account, variables that make the decision far less obvious and simplistic than you assume.

For example, what was driving Admiral Janeway's actions in "Endgame" except for emotion and personal loyalty?

Admiral Janeway's actions in "Endgame" were insane and immoral. She violated her oath and wiped out an entire timeline merely to make a few people's lives slightly better. It was a criminally and obscenely selfish act.

And wasn't Dr. McCoy and Kirk always trying to get Spock, and Archer and Trip, always trying to get T'Pol, to engage their emotions more, to let it factor into their decision making? There is a widespread precedent for such behavior throughout Trek.

I don't even get what you're talking about here. I never remotely claimed that emotion was not a factor. See my comments above. You're drifting onto a tangent here that's got nothing to do with this discussion.

And there's just as much precedent throughout Trek for characters urging others to use their reason rather than let their passions run away with them. Like finding a diplomatic solution to a conflict rather than giving in to revenge. Or sacrificing one's chance to be with a loved one for the greater good. Kirk let Edith Keeler die, man! Obviously his emotion was a factor in his decision-making, but it wasn't the only factor, and ultimately he chose the cold logic of the situation over his personal, narrow affinities. It's disingenuous for you to argue that Star Trek endorses blind emotionalism as the only valid response to any and every situation.

I think Kadohata's direct relationship to the crew hasn't been fully fleshed out, so you might have a point there. Then again, you might not. She certainly seemed pretty warm towards all the senior staff and they in turn.

That still doesn't mean she'd automatically agree that they were right to commit mutiny and abandon the Federation at its time of greatest need in order to pursue some cockamamie plan that had a minuscule chance of working. I mean, do you always agree unquestioningly with the people you love? Haven't you ever had a family member or significant other make a decision that you thought was completely wrong and you refused to go along with? You're assuming that personal affinity equals automatic agreement, and that's just not the way the world works.

Though Picard might not have played poker with the senior staff and was a remote figure for many, he still inspired intense loyalty and even affection from his crew, particularly his senior staff. I doubt Kadohata would want to return to the Enterprise, especially after Data's death, if she had felt the atmosphere was forbidding before.

I resent these exaggerated straw men you're making up in place of my actual arguments. I never said the atmosphere was "forbidding." I said that there was no reason to assume that she knew Jean-Luc Picard well on a personal level. I said that the crewmembers she knew best were probably Riker and Data, with Picard being a more distant figure. I asked how well you knew your boss's boss; I never asked if you found your boss's boss forbidding or intimidating. Where you get "forbidding" is beyond me; it's an extreme and bizarre misreading of a very simple point I made.

 

[Trent Roman]

I really find it surprising that so many are of the opinion that Kadohata should have automatically trusted Picard's decision not to join the fleet. I mean, the last time the Borg had threatened Earth, the senior staff was stunned that they weren't going to get to be in the thick of a hopeless slaughter, and were more than happy to say "to hell with our orders" to stay on the NZ. Then, mere months earlier, when Janeway had told Picard to stay away from the new Borg cube, no one made a peep about flying into the thick of things rather than keeping a safe distance. But this time, Picard is running in the opposite direction? In defiance of the chain of command? On the achingly slim chance that this relic might help? The unbelievable thing is that so few objected.

It's a crazy thing, but turns out different situations require different solutions. With First Contact, Picard and Co. were doing fuckall out on the Neutral Zone when he had an insider perspective that could, and did, turn the course of the battle. For the dead cube in Resistance... well, actually, as I recall, charging in blew up in their face, as did several other dumbass plans, because the nature of the threat had changed. When confronting the EVIL! Borg Supercube, which had proven resistant to conventional tactics, they had to look for something unconventional. Was it a ridiculous solution? Absolutely. But then, the EVIL!, Pluto-chompin' Borg Supercube was likewise ridiculous, as was pretty much the rest of the book. Remains that a plan with a poor chance of success is still better than a course of action with no chance of success. I mean, say that the Planet Killer stunt had failed as it probably should have: what then would have happened that wouldn't have happened anyway? Nothing at all, other than one less ship present at the slaughter. To say nothing that you had the two remaining experts on the Borg on the ship saying go one way and not the other (after the third expert got Scream'ed at the beginning), who, really, have a better perspective on the situation than a pair of admirals huddling at the bottom of a bunker.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[William Leisner]

When confronting the EVIL! Borg Supercube, which had proven resistant to conventional tactics, they had to look for something unconventional. Was it a ridiculous solution? Absolutely. But then, the EVIL!, Pluto-chompin' Borg Supercube was likewise ridiculous, as was pretty much the rest of the book. Remains that a plan with a poor chance of success is still better than a course of action with no chance of success.

To say the chances of using a century-old dead hulk to beat the Borg were "poor" is to greatly inflate those chances.

And conventional tactics weren't working at the Battle of Sector 001 either... until Picard showed up and said, "Shoot there!" And when unconventional means had been used against the Borg, it was when the Big E was right there, either tapping through Locutus' connections, or luring the Borg ship too close to a star. There's no way to say, with certainty, that obeying orders would have only resulted in the destruction of the Enterprise. There's no way to know that, between Picard and Seven and Spock, they might not have come up with that last-second, nick-of-time inspiration that would have won the day.

To say nothing that you had the two remaining experts on the Borg on the ship saying go one way and not the other (after the third expert got Scream'ed at the beginning), who, really, have a better perspective on the situation than a pair of admirals huddling at the bottom of a bunker.

And that's a fair point... but experts aren't always right, either. And, as you point out yourself, one of those experts nearly got himself reassimilated just a few months earlier, which doesn't do a lot for his credibility. Particularly when he proposes something that sounds even more useless than being there to slow the Borg down by 0.00001 seconds. Remember, we're talking about an organization whose members volunteer to risk their lives in the attempt to defend their fellow citizens. Like I say, I'm surprised so many are surprised by the willingness to go down fighting, to do something that at least, on an emotional level, feels like doing something.

 

[Trent Roman]

To say the chances of using a century-old dead hulk to beat the Borg were "poor" is to greatly inflate those chances.

Ha. Ludicrous, then?

There's no way to know that, between Picard and Seven and Spock, they might not have come up with that last-second, nick-of-time inspiration that would have won the day.

Possibly. But if you have a plan on tap, seems better to pursue that than to hope you'll think of one when you get there. A Borg in the hand is worth two in the bush. And it's a stange motive for the admirals or Kadohata and her crew: "We don't trust your insight now, but we want you here to benefit from your insight."

Like I say, I'm surprised so many are surprised by the willingness to go down fighting, to do something that at least, on an emotional level, feels like doing something.

As I see it, it's exactly the reverse. Going back to Earth was doing nothing, because of the futility of directly engaging the Supercube. Pursuing this possible avenue of salvation, however remote, is being proactive instead of reactive, even if they're only deluding themselves by thinking it will be effective. I don't doubt anybody's desire to go down fighting, particularly not this crew: Picard had already shown some kind of martyrdom complex in Resistance when it came to the Borg, and Worf is not easily turned from a fight (and what would be a glorious death in battle) without reason to believe that his greater duty lies elsewhere. And if the Planet Killer had just lay there dormant, it's not as if the Supercube was going anywhere; the Ent-E would just have to make it's suicide run above Vulcan or Andor instead of Earth.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[TenLubak]

A couple things that bothered me were that we saw only 2 admirals in the whole Starfleet hiding in bunker. Also they were cracking jokes as billions died.

 

[DarKush]

Chris,

I never eliminated duty from the equation, but I realized that Kadohata might be balancing various loyalties, one of them to Starfleet, another to Picard and crew, and definitely to her family. And when you're balancing all of those loyalties, committments, I think she didn't prioritize correctly. If she wanted to save her family, why not go with the guy who's beaten the Borg before, who has an unique perspective into how the Borg think and act, instead of going with Starfleet who didn't have a plan at all, like what Trent had said in an earlier argument?

Also, you're a bright person and a good writer, but you don't define what I discuss or not discuss in this conversation. I also don't care for the personal attacks either. This isn't that serious. You say that Janeway's actions were insane and immoral, but that's your opinion. I mentioned her, and McCoy etc. to show that there is a precedent to go with your gut, to break the rules that is more typical in Trek than you wanted to acknowledge. There is a conflict between reason and emotion in Trek, and that makes for some powerful drama. I think that Kadohata made a mistake in Before Dishonor,and she then she didn't even have the guts to continue backing that mistake, so it makes her a vacillating character in my eyes, one that shouldn't have gotten a free pass. There should've been some bruised feelings left over her actions in Before Dishonor.

 

[Therin of Andor]

I also don't care for the personal attacks either.

I must have missed those?

she didn't even have the guts to continue backing that mistake, so it makes her a vacillating character in my eyes.

So when someone realizes they have made a grave mistake they must continue on their original path? Starfleet officers must never vacillate?

 

[Hartzilla2007]

To say the chances of using a century-old dead hulk to beat the Borg were "poor" is to greatly inflate those chances.

Ha. Ludicrous, then?

There's no way to know that, between Picard and Seven and Spock, they might not have come up with that last-second, nick-of-time inspiration that would have won the day.

Possibly. But if you have a plan on tap, seems better to pursue that than to hope you'll think of one when you get there. A Borg in the hand is worth two in the bush. And it's a stange motive for the admirals or Kadohata and her crew: "We don't trust your insight now, but we want you here to benefit from your insight."

Except the Planet Killer DIDN'T work. They had to use the plan B they came up with on the way there AKA the virus from I, Borg.

Like I say, I'm surprised so many are surprised by the willingness to go down fighting, to do something that at least, on an emotional level, feels like doing something.

As I see it, it's exactly the reverse. Going back to Earth was doing nothing, because of the futility of directly engaging the Supercube. Pursuing this possible avenue of salvation, however remote, is being proactive instead of reactive, even if they're only deluding themselves by thinking it will be effective. I don't doubt anybody's desire to go down fighting, particularly not this crew: Picard had already shown some kind of martyrdom complex in Resistance when it came to the Borg, and Worf is not easily turned from a fight (and what would be a glorious death in battle) without reason to believe that his greater duty lies elsewhere. And if the Planet Killer had just lay there dormant, it's not as if the Supercube was going anywhere; the Ent-E would just have to make it's suicide run above Vulcan or Andor instead of Earth.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

Except that when then Doomsday Machine failed the Borg absorbed it and got more powerful and were now had an indestructable outer shell on their ship which actually made things WORSE, and Picard and Co. had to use the plan that was on the back burner since they met Hugh.

 

[Steve Roby]

You say that Janeway's actions were insane and immoral, but that's your opinion.

Not just his. Admiral Janeway lived in what from all appearances was a comfortable and peaceful future. A couple of her friends had died, another was ill. So she committed crimes to go back in time and change things more to her liking. Did she go back far enough to keep Voyager from being pulled into the Delta Quadrant, thus saving everyone who was on board the ship? No. Did she go back far enough to save people like Joe Carey, who died not long before Endgame? No. She changed 28 years of history for just a few people, creating a lot of unforeseeable changes (as played out in the TNG and Destiny books). I don't see much morality or sanity there.

 

[Christopher]

Chris,

I never eliminated duty from the equation, but I realized that Kadohata might be balancing various loyalties, one of them to Starfleet, another to Picard and crew, and definitely to her family. And when you're balancing all of those loyalties, committments, I think she didn't prioritize correctly.

That's your opinion. She felt differently. I'm not saying you have to agree with her choice. I'm just rejecting the assumption that there had to be something wrong with her as a person in order for her to weigh the factors differently than you did. It's possible for equally well-intentioned and ethical people to weigh the same set of factors differently and come to different conclusions. It doesn't make her a traitor to Picard. It doesn't make her a weak-willed vacillator. It just makes her an individual facing a situation with no clear or easy solution and making a choice. I'm sure she would've been unhappy with either choice. I'm sure Picard and Worf were unhappy to go against the admirals. This wasn't a black-and-white decision, so it's oversimplistic to talk about it as if there were an obvious moral choice and an obvious immoral choice. Miranda's choice was just as valid as Picard's.

Indeed, as Hartzilla pointed out, Picard's plan didn't even work. It even did more harm than good. Ultimately, he committed mutiny for nothing. Let's be frank about this: Picard was wrong. The people who stood with him -- Worf, Geordi, etc. -- they were backing the wrong horse. That vaunted personal loyalty you go on about led them astray.

Let's compare it to Geordi in Destiny. Picard ordered him to built an illegal weapon of mass destruction in a futile gesture against the Borg -- and Geordi refused. He outright refused to follow his captain's orders. But he did so because those orders were wrong and he was acting on his conscience. I don't see anyone condemning Geordi for that "betrayal of personal loyalty." Because it had nothing to do with personal loyalty. He was still just as loyal to Picard -- he just cared enough to face Picard and try to stop him from doing something that would diminish him as a person.

So I don't think it's fair at all to impugn Miranda Kadohata's loyalty to Picard just because she didn't blindly follow him off a cliff. Loyalty doesn't mean mindless submission.

 

[William Leisner]

Like I say, I'm surprised so many are surprised by the willingness to go down fighting, to do something that at least, on an emotional level, feels like doing something.

As I see it, it's exactly the reverse. Going back to Earth was doing nothing, because of the futility of directly engaging the Supercube.

And that's valid, too. Just so long as we can agree some could see the situation this way, and some could see it the other.

 

[Trent Roman]

(Might I request we not post unhidden Destiny spoilers in a Before Dishonor thread?)

Except that when then Doomsday Machine failed the Borg absorbed it and got more powerful and were now had an indestructable outer shell on their ship which actually made things WORSE, and Picard and Co. had to use the plan that was on the back burner since they met Hugh.

Wait, then--what? Someone's going to have to refresh my memory, because I read this book a while back and was so digusted with it that by the end I was really just skimming to get it over with. What the fuck was the point of spending all that time on the mutiny, fetching the planet killer and having Seven mind-meld with it if it yielded nothing? Why not just go to Earth and use the I, Borg virus in the first place in they had a plan instead of going to run off after the planet killer? For that matter, why didn't Earth's defenders simply use the I, Borg virus instead of waiting for the Enterprise to show up?

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[DarKush]

Hartzilla,

Chris accusing me of being disingenious (sp), I consider that a personal shot. I'm expressing an opinion that he, and perhaps you as well, disagrees with. And I gave examples, as he gave examples. I don't like him accusing me of creating straw men or false carciatures, etc. I don't think this is that important.

Chris,

With Geordi I know him. I've seen him disagree with Picard, but more likely he goes with Picard because he knows the man, he trusts him, and I'm cool with that. Just like I'm cool with T'Lana or Leybenzon not going with Picard. I had no problem with that.

My issue with Kadohata was if TPTB made a big deal about her previous service on the ENT-D, why didn't she trust Picard, perhaps the Federation's greatest Borg authority besides Janeway and Seven? Or why didn't she try to bridge the divides among the various factions. She didn't. She followed orders, and then she started having second thoughts, and went back on those orders, what was right about that decision? She still flouted orders, just later on, after showing a lack of trust in her commanding officer.

Sure Picard's plan failed, but having a plan is better than no plan at all.