Heroes 3x25 "An Invisible Thread" Discuss and Grade (SEASON FINALE)

[melancholymecha]

Re: Heroes 3x25 "An Invisible Thread" Discuss and Grade (SEASON FINALE

Folks, it doesn't wash. There's no way to make it wash. I would hope Peter would go ballistic and never accept him, because it will always be Sylar. You can't exchange people one for the other like that. It devalues all concerned.

true. I hate that they did this to Nathan but...I have to admit I do find this stuff fascinating. If there was a way to really extract or kill Sylar's memories & personality and you leave the old Nathan's memories/personality in a body that now permanently looks like Nathan's & has his DNA, then who is he? he's certainly not the old original Nathan. But what do you do with him? would he now become less valid as the original Nathan even though he still feels, remembers & experiences stuff like the old one did?

But this could all be pointless b/c, what worries me is that Heroes is such a dumb show... that I bet they wont get into any of this at all... & just have it be all about Sylar going "who am I? boohoo" & once in a while Nathan glares at him from a mirror & smirks(like Niki/Jessica) while Sylar kills more people. I hate how this show can come up with great scenarios and totally botch them.

 

[Dorian Thompson]

Re: Heroes 3x25 "An Invisible Thread" Discuss and Grade (SEASON FINALE

But this could all be pointless b/c, what worries me is that Heroes is such a pretty dumb show... that I bet they wont get into any of this at all... & just have it be all about Sylar going "who am I? boohoo" & once in a while Nathan glares at him from a mirror & smirks(like Niki/Jessica) while Sylar kills more people. I hate how this show can come up with great scenarios and totally botch them.

Of course they're going to botch it. I'm telling you, spare yourself the aggravation. This will be all about Sylar. The writers did this to keep Sylar in everyone's mind. Metaphysical aspects? Do these writers use words like that in their vocabulary?

Temis, you hit upon some very important points, but ultimately it's going to be more of an emotional reaction. There are going to be people like me, not overly religious but who believe in the value of a human soul, and mothers and brothers who are flat out going to say, "I don't care if he's exactly alike. I would never, ever accept a copy of my child. Not ever." The story won't work for them no matter how much metaphysical discussion the writers script--and the writers aren't capable of crafting much intelligent metaphysical discussion.

Does anyone think they're capable? I can't believe everyone here is confident of that. I don't buy it for a minute. This is Heroes, folks. This isn't the writing staff of The Shield, or Dexter, or Mad Men, or Supernatural, or Big Love. Fool me for three seasons, shame on you. Fool me for a fourth, shame on me. I'll check in at midway point next season and lurk through the reactions.

 

[melancholymecha]

Re: Heroes 3x25 "An Invisible Thread" Discuss and Grade (SEASON FINALE

^ yeah, thats what Im afraid of...

they really do love that damn Sylar...

 

[Dorian Thompson]

Re: Heroes 3x25 "An Invisible Thread" Discuss and Grade (SEASON FINALE

Yes, they do. This volume was supposed to be about Fugitives, but ultimately it was about Sylar. Catching Sylar. Sylar longing for his daddy. Sylar's identity crisis. The fugitive problem was whisked away with a word from fake Nathan. The specials and the atmosphere of fear created about them suddenly disappeared and became a non story.

These writers are enamored of Sylar. This volume became about Sylar, just as volume three was about Sylar and his wanting to reform and have a mommy. Mark my words--volume five will also end up being about Sylar. "New Nathan" is Sylar. You're going to be disappointed if you expect anything more. Pasdar has to talk it up. That's his job.

If Sylar had been like Caprica's Zoe-A, a new identity created lovingly by Nathan....that would be a little different. I liked Zoe-A. Zoe-A didn't murder Zoe the first. Sylar having murdered Nathan will always be the deal breaker.

 

[startrekwatcher]

Re: Heroes 3x25 "An Invisible Thread" Discuss and Grade (SEASON FINALE

The show does need guts. It needs to be original, fresh and willing to up the stakes, be unpredictable and do mindblowing things. But none of what I saw last night really demonstrated any of those things. The show still is having serious lapses in logic, a problem for me feeling much of anything for these characters outside of Angela and a problem simply measuring up to my standards when it comes to entertainment.

So what would have been a gutsy, original, fresh plot twist instead?

I honestly don't know. But that is the luxury I have as a viewer--I get to sit back, let the writers write and see if what they come up with is satisfying or interesting to me. It is just one of those things that when you see something that really works you simply know it and of course it is subjective. All I know is that the twist we got last night, while bizarre, didn't leave me dumbfounded and frustrated that I have to wait 4+ months.

Then again, it might have been a brilliant idea in and of itself but because I have lost my interest in these characters it just didn't work here with these characters on this show. Who knows? Had it been a plot twist in a show with characters that had been consistently written and given some real depth instead of being treated like narrative yo-yos being jerked around by the whim of writerss who simply didn't give a sh*t I might have loved it and have been just as impressed as you were.

Frankly, like I've said many times, these characters just don't do it for me anymore with the exception of Angela. And at this stage in a series I don't know what to do except get rid of everyone but then again that wouldn't guarantee anything. The writers might make the new characters as bland as these have unfortunately become.

I'll probably end up just not watching Heroes in the fall rather than continue to bemoan what it has become. I've been tricked too many times by the writers with promises of the show getting its stride back.

 

[Checkmate]

Re: Heroes 3x25 "An Invisible Thread" Discuss and Grade (SEASON FINALE

If Sylar had been like Caprica's Zoe-A, a new identity created lovingly by Nathan....that would be a little different. I liked Zoe-A. Zoe-A didn't murder Zoe the first. Sylar having murdered Nathan will always be the deal breaker.

I don't see what that has to do with anything else you were complaining about earlier. It doesn't matter how Sylar (and it could have easily been any other shapeshifter with the ability to absorb memories) became Nathan. He is Nathan now and aside from Angela and Matt, no one has a clue that he isn't.

 

[Mr Light]

Re: Heroes 3x25 "An Invisible Thread" Discuss and Grade (SEASON FINALE

It's too bad they didn't take the "Days of Future Past" route I thought they were going to. Shape-shifting assassin goes after prominent political anti-mutant figure. Mutant outlaw heroes save his life from the assassin, which tempers his anti-mutant rhetoric and prevents the apocalyptic future of mutants being hunted fugitives. You could have had President Worf dissolve the Danko group and put in our characters as 1990s X-Factor, a government sponsored mutant team that goes after the evil mutants. Then we finally would have had a proper super team instead of them constantly branching off on their own.

 

[Dorian Thompson]

Re: Heroes 3x25 "An Invisible Thread" Discuss and Grade (SEASON FINALE

I don't see what that has to do with anything else you were complaining about earlier. It doesn't matter how Sylar (and it could have easily been any other shapeshifter with the ability to absorb memories) became Nathan. He is Nathan now and aside from Angela and Matt, no one has a clue that he isn't.

It most certainly does matter. He's only able to "become" Nathan because he slit Nathan's throat. Mea culpa. I can't be that clinical and objective. I don't have it in me. Nathan 2.0 murdering Nathan 1.0 to create the opportunity to be Nathan 2.0 matters.

Sylar isn't Nathan now. Sylar will be popping back out sooner or later. The writers have too big a hard on for Sylar. They should have just avoided that bullshit and killed Nathan off. Let Sylar kill him and then mourn the character properly. Build Peter's future character development on this loss. None of this Peter embracing his brother's murderer because there's so much of Nathan's memories in him. That's just gross.

 

[startrekwatcher]

Re: Heroes 3x25 "An Invisible Thread" Discuss and Grade (SEASON FINALE

There are going to be people like me, not overly religious but who believe in the value of a human soul, and mothers and brothers who are flat out going to say, "I don't care if he's exactly alike. I would never, ever accept a copy of my child. Not ever." The story won't work for them no matter how much metaphysical discussion the writers script--and the writers aren't capable of crafting much intelligent metaphysical discussion.

Then those individuals are being too rigid as viewers. It doesn't matter if those people would agree with Angela's actions or not. What matters is is this something she would believably do and we as viewers seeing why she did it. We don't have to condone it but I think saying it is unbelievable that Angela would do this because you wouldn't is silly. People deal with grief in a variety of ways. This is just one example taken to a fantastical extreme because of a sci-fi ability allowing it. Who knows what people might do in the real world if they had access to some of the gadgets in sci fi. This is simply one story in which this particular mother chose to cope with the death of her son.

My problem more or less isn't with the idea just with the fact that something like this needs emotional investment by the viewer and to be executed with some expertise. I haven't cared about Nathan in quite some time and with the way the writers have chosen to execute storylines don't leave me with much in the way of hope. In the right hands it could be a very poignant story of a mother wanting a second chance and psychologically fooling herself into so desperately wanting to believe that this is her son. I doubt they are going there necessarily.

And if possible could we leave Caprica spoilers out of this thread unless hidden. I haven't had a chance to watch it yet.

 

[Dorian Thompson]

Re: Heroes 3x25 "An Invisible Thread" Discuss and Grade (SEASON FINALE

Too rigid as viewers? Oh come on....I'm saying that some viewers will have an emotional reaction to the idea and won't be able to identify with what the characters do even if they understand it on an intellectual level, thus the story won't work for them. It's not that important. The way the writers have executed stories leave me with no hope of them doing better. You got that right.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Re: Heroes 3x25 "An Invisible Thread" Discuss and Grade (SEASON FINALE

That interview makes no sense. Nathan didn't download like a Cylon into Sylar. Nathan is D-E-A-D dead. Sylar just happens to have a lot of Nathan's memories via history/touch power that he now things are his own.

Remember earlier when he was talking with his mother? His shape shifting powers were giving him split personality disorders. It's not Nathan downloaded into Sylar, but it's something that thinks he's Nathan downloaded into Sylar.

I'm glad they didn't use Claire's magic blood. Sure, it is a massive plot hole, but it's a plot hole that would surface eventually and I was pissed off that they allowed it to be created.

My guess is that, next season, they'll be sort of like the X-Men. They'll be the Company, trying to stop people with powers (probably building up to one powerful person with powers). For side plots, Matt will struggle with his guilt over Sylar and Hiro will struggle over his loss of powers.

NathanSylar will struggle with figuring out who he is (I think there will be some hints of a debate over the existence of a soul with Angela wanting to believe that it doesn't matter, while other characters, when they find out, believe the soul matters). It adds a very interesting dynamic to the show. Yes, Nathan as a character is dead. But, at the same time, there's hope that he could be alive inside Sylar. That's an internal conflict that could be told only through a sci-fi/fantasy setting.

In the end, I expect the Sylar personality to win because they need to have a final climactic battle against Sylar in future seasons. After that, Adrian Pasdar would probably have to be reduced to guest status (unless Sylar once again tries to influence the government).

Of course, they could fuck the entire thing up. The key here is not to move to fast and not to drop it. They need to plan a goal for when Sylar reemerges (if he does) and plan for that goal. It'll take guts, though, because the trick is to use Zachary Quinto sparingly. A few dreams/mirror views would be good. Maybe a shift into Sylar that he conveniently forgets. But, for the most part, he has to be Nathan and think he's Nathan just going crazy. Also, I'm hoping Sylar is a B-plot, not the A-plot (I'm not a fan of Volume 2, but that's the idea just to give Sylar a bit of a break).

 

[Mallet]

Re: Heroes 3x25 "An Invisible Thread" Discuss and Grade (SEASON FINALE

Or, eventually (probably season 5), someone will go back in time, steal Nathan's dead body, bring it forward in time, use Claire's blood and bring him back to life.

This will give the writers a season to do the whole Nathan/Sylar same body angst thing, and then still bring Nathan back later after Sylar finally regains control.

As for big plot holes... Isn't it funny no one went off to get the Haitian back to help fight Sylar? He really is the only one who could stop him with out a problem. He could turn off his power, put him asleep, whatever he wanted. Convienent that Noah and Nathan & Peter didn't think of it, since they did the exact same thing to the Big Bad last Volume.

 

[D Man]

Re: Heroes 3x25 "An Invisible Thread" Discuss and Grade (SEASON FINALE

^^That's been the writers' problem for a long time, too. They won't bring in Claire's blood because that doesn't track with what story they want to tell, and they won't bring in the Haitian because that would mess up whatever plans they have.

Still an entertaining show for me, but light years away from what they were putting out back in the first season. Of course, saying that makes me worry about re-watching year one, fearing that it was ALWAYS this ridiculous, but I'm hoping that another time through will confirm that they just went off the rails in season 2 and haven't found their way back since.

P.S. I thought I read a spoiler about Christopher Eccleston's character returning in the finale...that's what I thought was going on when the water coalesced into Tracy. I guess either his scenes got cut or the spoiler/rumor was wrong? Speaking of which...I'm not thrilled about Tracy coming back, I was hoping she was really dead and we'd meet the 3rd triplet, who would then die and we'd be rid of the actress.

 

[Hermiod]

Re: Heroes 3x25 "An Invisible Thread" Discuss and Grade (SEASON FINALE

:sighs: Yes, we know. But that's not the hint that Nathan gave us when he was talking to the Secret Agent. THAT is what got people excited: Peter touches Sylar and we finally get to see the big battle everyone's been hoping for ever since S1: Superman vs. Black Adam.

That is WHY people were excited (and subsequently disappointed). THAT is what was asked; why people were excited.

Then they're watching the wrong show. If people want to see fights between people who actually use their superpowers and aren't living in constant fear of having those powers taken away, then go pick up a comic book. Heroes does not do that. Heroes has people run away from their powers. They're as ashamed of them as Heroes' writers are of their show.

Claire is unkillable due to the Drooling Fanboy Factor.

That ceased to exist the day the Internet became common. Besides, Sylar killed the only target of anything like that in season two. Her name was Candice.

 

[Jayson]

Re: Heroes 3x25 "An Invisible Thread" Discuss and Grade (SEASON FINALE

We should look at "Nathan" as a incomplete clone. A mixture of both Sylar and Nathan. Kindo of like Tuvix in that "voyager" ep. He isn't nathan but he isn't sylar either. I think that is how they will play this out. "Nathan" will soon realize he isn't really who he thinks he is but at the same time he won't want to die either or let the Sylar personality take over completely.

What I would like to see them do is basically have a Head Sylar, if you will, that interacts with "Nathan." They did that in season 1 with Ali Later and this would be away to do it again but in away I think would be more intresting. It would also allow them to keep Quinto around but without having him do the same stuff he has been doing.

Jason

 

[3D Master]

Re: Heroes 3x25 "An Invisible Thread" Discuss and Grade (SEASON FINALE

You're using transporters as an example? Wha-at? How that applies to the existence of a soul I don't understand but we don't have transporters in Heroes.

Transporters can't transport souls since Starfleet doesn't know what a soul looks like, so how can they program a transporter to grab one? Yet for all these years, audiences have accepted that this is not a problem. Just goes to show that souls aren't necessary elements in sci fi.

If there are souls, transporters transport them. Remember, a transporter doesn't kill you. You are conscious through the transportation process; you can even grab a hold of a slowly disintegrating transporter pattern while you're nothing but a quantum foam and pull them back out with you.

:sighs: Yes, we know. But that's not the hint that Nathan gave us when he was talking to the Secret Agent. THAT is what got people excited: Peter touches Sylar and we finally get to see the big battle everyone's been hoping for ever since S1: Superman vs. Black Adam.

That is WHY people were excited (and subsequently disappointed). THAT is what was asked; why people were excited.

Then they're watching the wrong show. If people want to see fights between people who actually use their superpowers and aren't living in constant fear of having those powers taken away, then go pick up a comic book. Heroes does not do that. Heroes has people run away from their powers. They're as ashamed of them as Heroes' writers are of their show.

Peter too? And Hiro? And Ando?

And tell me, how could people know what this show would devolve into? Especially with the show starting with Peter being all about wanting more and being excited about getting to be more; with Hiro determined to use his powers as a hero from the get-go?

S1 was amazing; apart from chickening out on a full on from beginning to end Sylar versus Hiro and Peter fight.

And things were starting to get back to S1 form; so there was hope they finally shed the horror this show devolved into during V2 and V3.

Seriously; I get you hate the show, I haven't cared for it in a long time either; I pretty much quit after Sylar turned goody two-shoes, and stumbled over it much later, finding out Sylar is his old evil self again (won't be bothering with the next season, seeing how they botched this up again), but that's no reason to blame viewers for having enjoyed the first season and wanting to get back to that mold and having been hopeful lately. Spew your vitriol on the show, leave the viewers out of it.

 

[Hermiod]

Re: Heroes 3x25 "An Invisible Thread" Discuss and Grade (SEASON FINALE

I can press buttons too.

Peter too? And Hiro? And Ando?

I've been over this before. Neither Peter nor Hiro made any effort to get their powers back after Arthur took them. Hiro just accepted it when their trip to India turned out to be a big bust.

It's really this simple. Heroes is a show about people with superpowers. Yet their answer to people having powers that could solve a problem in a way that is inconvenient to the plot is to take those powers away or otherwise disable them.

In season one, Hiro's powers stopped working and only came back when it was convenient to the plot. Peter had no control over his powers until it became convenient to the plot.

In season two, Sylar and Niki were infected with the Shanti virus, disabling their powers and Peter lost his memory of having powers in the first place.

In season three, Peter, Hiro and Maya lost their powers completely. Peter and Hiro gained highly crippled versions of their old powers and now Hiro can't even use his because it might kill him.

And in this very episode, they purposefully forget numerous abilities other people have that could have avoided the Sylar/Nathan thing. Why ? Because they're inconvenient to the plot.

That's why I suggested Brian Michael Bendis as someone who could run this show properly. Bendis recently got down with a gigantic, multi-title storyline that had run for years and didn't feel the need to make his characters look like idiots. He had smart villains and smart heroes and it worked.

And tell me, how could people know what this show would devolve into? Especially with the show starting with Peter being all about wanting more and being excited about getting to be more; with Hiro determined to use his powers as a hero from the get-go?

S1 was amazing; apart from chickening out on a full on from beginning to end Sylar versus Hiro and Peter fight.

I forgave them for not showing the Peter vs Sylar fight. That's called build up. If they'd shown the fight at that point then that's what we wrestling fans call a "Hotshot" - giving the thing everyone wants to see away for free when people are willing to wait and pay for it. You can't show Peter vs Sylar until season finale.

And things were starting to get back to S1 form; so there was hope they finally shed the horror this show devolved into during V2 and V3.

Seriously; I get you hate the show, I haven't cared for it in a long time either; I pretty much quit after Sylar turned goody two-shoes, and stumbled over it much later, finding out Sylar is his old evil self again (won't be bothering with the next season, seeing how they botched this up again), but that's no reason to blame viewers for having enjoyed the first season and wanting to get back to that mold and having been hopeful lately. Spew your vitriol on the show, leave the viewers out of it.

It's the viewers that are the problem with these threads. Every week you all cheer the writers on for doing things that are ruining this show.

A few weeks ago, Temis, myself and a few others came up with a good list of ways Peter and Hiro could have been prevented from solving every problem and rendering the rest of the cast redundant. Good ideas like saying Peter could only recall powers from people he had an emotional connection with, for instance, or Hiro risking "rifts" (as he put them way back when) by using his powers too much. Those were good, well thought out solutions.

Instead, everyone just cheered Arthur Petrelli on. Yay! No more time travel! Yay! Peter was too powerful anyway! Well, so is this guy but somehow this guy sells more books than him every month. You all complain that this show has gotten so bad but then you are happy about the reasons why it's so bad.

 

[3D Master]

Re: Heroes 3x25 "An Invisible Thread" Discuss and Grade (SEASON FINALE

And tell me, how could people know what this show would devolve into? Especially with the show starting with Peter being all about wanting more and being excited about getting to be more; with Hiro determined to use his powers as a hero from the get-go?

S1 was amazing; apart from chickening out on a full on from beginning to end Sylar versus Hiro and Peter fight.

I forgave them for not showing the Peter vs Sylar fight. That's called build up. If they'd shown the fight at that point then that's what we wrestling fans call a "Hotshot" - giving the thing everyone wants to see away for free when people are willing to wait and pay for it. You can't show Peter vs Sylar until season finale.

They didn't show any fight in the finale! That's the problem I was talking about! Peter went nuclear. Sylar barely threw any power around, if he even did at all. And Hiro for some odd reason just teleported to medieval Japan.

And things were starting to get back to S1 form; so there was hope they finally shed the horror this show devolved into during V2 and V3.

Seriously; I get you hate the show, I haven't cared for it in a long time either; I pretty much quit after Sylar turned goody two-shoes, and stumbled over it much later, finding out Sylar is his old evil self again (won't be bothering with the next season, seeing how they botched this up again), but that's no reason to blame viewers for having enjoyed the first season and wanting to get back to that mold and having been hopeful lately. Spew your vitriol on the show, leave the viewers out of it.

It's the viewers that are the problem with these threads. Every week you all cheer the writers on for doing things that are ruining this show.

A few weeks ago, Temis, myself and a few others came up with a good list of ways Peter and Hiro could have been prevented from solving every problem and rendering the rest of the cast redundant. Good ideas like saying Peter could only recall powers from people he had an emotional connection with, for instance, or Hiro risking "rifts" (as he put them way back when) by using his powers too much. Those were good, well thought out solutions.

Instead, everyone just cheered Arthur Petrelli on. Yay! No more time travel! Yay! Peter was too powerful anyway! Well, so is this guy but somehow this guy sells more books than him every month. You all complain that this show has gotten so bad but then you are happy about the reasons why it's so bad.

???

How the hell am I - and the viewers I'm talking about - cheering for all those bad things the writers did, when I just called all those things bad? Not to mention that the viewers I'm talking about would finally see Peter back to his old form and finally get to see the big super powered fight that we've wanted to see, that we didn't, since S1.

So please tell me, how me and the viewers I'm talking about, would possibly be cheering for the very things we want to see GONE.

 

[Hermiod]

Re: Heroes 3x25 "An Invisible Thread" Discuss and Grade (SEASON FINALE

They didn't show any fight in the finale! That's the problem I was talking about! Peter went nuclear. Sylar barely threw any power around, if he even did at all. And Hiro for some odd reason just teleported to medieval Japan.

Hiro teleported to feudal Japan (not medieval) simply because he had to do so quickly. He just jumped to the first place that came to mind.

How the hell am I - and the viewers I'm talking about - cheering for all those bad things the writers did, when I just called all those things bad? Not to mention that the viewers I'm talking about would finally see Peter back to his old form and finally get to see the big super powered fight that we've wanted to see, that we didn't, since S1.

So please tell me, how me and the viewers I'm talking about, would possibly be cheering for the very things we want to see GONE.

First, Peter would not be back to his old self. He would temporarily have Sylar's powers and, as we saw earlier in the season, would rapidly need to get rid of them.

Second, while you yourself may have wanted to finally see the big Peter vs Sylar fight, most of the posters in these review threads aren't willing to take what goes along with that - having an extremely powerful heroic character and one who can travel through time. We are never going to get that fight now.

The only way we ever will is for somebody with a small amount of vision to take over the running of this show and go back and undo Peter and preferably Hiro's power loss.

 

[JoeZhang]

Re: Heroes 3x25 "An Invisible Thread" Discuss and Grade (SEASON FINALE

Is the point of this to carry on with the Sylar character but get around the fact that the actor has better things to do?