Ron Moore's Voyager

[DGCatAniSiri]

I certainly don't think that there would have been seven years of conflict, but the fact is, the only real conflict between Starfleet and Maquis was B'Elanna breaking Carey's nose in 'Paralex.' Yeah, there was the episode about Tuvok whipping those three Maquis into 'Starfleet shape,' but there should have been some actually disputes and fights, because the Maquis were not made up of just ex-Starfleet but people who only took up arms because their homes were in danger, and I wouldn't be surprised if actual mercenary types got involved as well.

That first year and at least a portion of the second should have been all about the actual merging of these two different crews. If absolutely nothing else, I think that Barclay's hologram representation of the crew from 'Pathfinder,' where the Maquis crew still wore their uniforms instead of the Starfleet uniforms, should have been used. Despite Janeway's statements about them being one crew, I think there should have been a distinct 'us' and 'them' vibe between the Starfleet and Maquis crew, at least at the start.

 

[Myasishchev]

^They shouldn't even have worn Starfleet uniforms. They thought of themselves as the only people in the Federation who had the patriotism to stand up to the Cardassians. The Maquis weren't a bunch of wannabes, they defined themselves as not Starfleet.

I'm surprised none of them tried to kill Tuvok. "I am not a Starfleet officer, I do not submit to your training, if you don't want me, I'll sit in the damn brig. Enjoy not having enough people to run your ship."

I forget if later on they freaked out about the Maquis organization practically being annihilated, or mentioned that whatever was left was presumably absorbed into Starfleet. Then again, the whole communication with the Alpha Quadrant thing was another underminer of the premise. Not that it's not always a pleasure to see Barclay, but there had to be a better way (it would have been totally in-character for Barclay to just pop up in an episode--"Hey, I've been here the whole time, it's just no one noticed." )

 

[Dusty Ayres]

A Voyager that stuck to its premise would have been far better than the one that was made. However, that would not be solely because of Ron Moore.

It would be way better irrespective of Moore being there or not simply because stickng to the premise would lead to a show with conflict, grittiness, story development, and character development: all things that were absent from the Voyager that was made, because they made the very bad decisions to abandon the premise and dumb-it-down to exclude all those things.

Conflict over what? It would be stupid for the Maquis fighting the Fleeters over every last thing. That would result in everyone being dead in 3 months or so.

Grittiness? What, having every last member of the crew hating everyone around them and plotting how they were going to murder everyone? That's just dumb.

Story development? It's just "Lost in Space" in that everytime they find a potential way home it won't work because the show would be over.

Character development? How does hating and wanting to kill everyone around you make a good character?

Dark does not equal "Good Quality", and the premise of the Fleet vs Maquis was dumb from the inception and it was a good thing it was dropped.

This "Grimdark is the only way to go" mindset is what's wrong with media these days, and it needs to be discarded. Not giving up and not becoming a savage at the first sign of things not being hunky-dory is NOT a bad thing people.

What Anwar said, and some more.

The Maquis may have been enemies, but they also were from the Alpha Quadrant, and they wanted to get home just as much as the Starfleet people did.

As for the food issue; replicators are powered and stuffed with interstellar matter, as was implied by the episode where Janeway said 'There's coffee in that nebula'; also, they stopped off at a couple of planets to stock up on food, as was implied in a few episodes, but particularly the episode 'Tuvix' where Nelix tells Chakotay about the poisonous Kaylo fruit and the bitter but safe Leola root. So food shouldn't have really been that much of an issue.

Keeping a ship pristine shouldn't have been much of a problem for them, considering that they ran across a lot of alien races with starports, and that they paid for repairs with gold-pressed latinum (which they can create in their replicators, again.) Even if they're not near an inhabited planet with a starport, they can always mine asteroids for raw materials to fix the outside of Voyager; Janeway's not going to let her ship look like shit, especially since accumulated damage like the kind Galactica had would put an end to their mission (Voyager also wasn't being chased by Cylons, nor did it have a rat-tag fleet to shepard.)

Being at each other throat's is a stupid way to be, especially for naval officers. and getting drunk and acting like losers wouldn't have got them home faster, but would have got them dead-especially considering the kind of threats they had to face. The kind of behaviour that Starbuck induldged in would have gotten a stern talking-to from Janeway and/or Chakotay, with some enforced recovery time thrown in by The Doctor for good measure, until she got her shit together, in Starfleet and the real U.S. Navy. It would also have been an insult to the crewmembers who sacrificed and died previously to get home, not to mention look bad to their families and Starfleet when Voyager finally did get home. So Moore can just forget that shit as well.

If he didn't like Voyager, not only should he have left it-which he did-but he should have kept his mouth shut as well. He should remember that Star Trek might be wacky doodle to him, but it's Gene Roddenberry's wacky doodle, and one can either accept it, or find some other show to work on. The people of Voyager are supposed to show what the best of humanity is like, not the worst-that's what Gene wanted, and that's what everybody else who's not a Internet BBS crawler that watches Star Trek wants as well.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I just have to wonder how big the dog kennel they'd have had Janeway living in byt he beginning of the second season, if it had been Michael Eddington she'd chased into the badlands?

 

[Myasishchev]

Suitably small.

See, that's who I think about when I think of the Maquis. Eddington.

Thinking about it, he's about the only one who ever made them interesting.

 

[Michael]

Conflict over what? It would be stupid for the Maquis fighting the Fleeters over every last thing.

Not to mention that it would be human and therefore more realistic.

Character development? How does hating and wanting to kill everyone around you make a good character?

Again, because it's more human. People are hating and killing in real life, you know.

Dark does not equal "Good Quality" ...

I don't think anyone is seriously saying that. But for a series that's supposed to depict a crew which is stranded 70 years from their home fighting for their very survival, it seemed rather untroubled and light-hearted most of the time.

... and the premise of the Fleet vs Maquis was dumb from the inception and it was a good thing it was dropped.

That I can't agree with either. I thought the premise was a pretty good one. It's a shame they never really did anything with it.

Not giving up and not becoming a savage at the first sign of things not being hunky-dory is NOT a bad thing people.

I agree, it's an admirable thing to stay humanly in an inhuman situation. But it should be shown how people have to struggle to preserve their humanity. It should be shown how hard it is in the face of the conditions the Voyager was in. They shouldn't be like that from the get-go just because it's teh future.

The Maquis may have been enemies, but they also were from the Alpha Quadrant, and they wanted to get home just as much as the Starfleet people did.

Yeah, it might have been illogical for them to fight each other when they essentially had the same goal. But, you know, it's not like people act logical most of the time in real life.

As for the food issue; replicators are powered and stuffed with interstellar matter, as was implied by the episode where Janeway said 'There's coffee in that nebula'; also, they stopped off at a couple of planets to stock up on food, as was implied in a few episodes, but particularly the episode 'Tuvix' where Nelix tells Chakotay about the poisonous Kaylo fruit and the bitter but safe Leola root. So food shouldn't have really been that much of an issue.

And that's exactly what I have an issue with. Them solving the real problems was always just implied. There's no freakin' way I'd accept Neelix' throw-away line about some fucking root as a way of believably dealing with the problems of declining food supplies (in an episode [Tuvix] where this isn't even the issue). I mean, some lines in an episode about stopping off at a planet to stock up food isn't the same as actually doing an episode (or better: episodes) about how they have to struggle to get food.

Yeah, you can always easily rationalize any problem they had with some lame technobabble, but that's not exactly what I call good, realistic storytelling. Why have the premise of a crew stranded that far from home when you don't want to show them really deal with these problems? Solving them off-screen (or by using some technobabble lines) is unacceptable for me. My problem with Voyager is that never for a tiny nanosecond did I really believe this crew honestly thought they'd have to spend the rest of their lives traveling home.

Keeping a ship pristine shouldn't have been much of a problem for them, considering that they ran across a lot of alien races with starports, and that they paid for repairs with gold-pressed latinum (which they can create in their replicators, again.)

Which is all fine and good, but why not actually showing us these kind of things? Again, why having the premise of a stranded ship in the first place when all you want to do is episodic alien-of-the-week shows?

As an aside, I don't think it was ever established that they could create gold-pressed latinum with the replicators. Thinking about it, that would be pretty stupid. Why then was is so valuable if you could easily create it with the replicator?

If he didn't like Voyager, not only should he have left it-which he did-but he should have kept his mouth shut as well.

Why? I thought it was pretty refreshing to see a writer talk honestly about his experience with Star Trek and not sugar-coat everything. I love RDM's honesty.

He should remember that Star Trek might be wacky doodle to him, but it's Gene Roddenberry's wacky doodle, and one can either accept it, or find some other show to work on.

Now that's just absurd. Gene Roddenberry had nothing whatsoever to do with Voyager.

The people of Voyager are supposed to show what the best of humanity is like, not the worst-that's what Gene wanted

Who cares what he wanted? (Certainly not me.) So you're saying a Star Trek show should never change it's outlook on humanity, because years ago Roddenberry came up with the perfect (and not to mention unrealistic) people of The Next Generation? Thank God the writers of DS9 weren't that unimaginative and uncreative.

 

[Anwar]

Suitably small.

See, that's who I think about when I think of the Maquis. Eddington.

Thinking about it, he's about the only one who ever made them interesting.

Eddington was a delusional dope who flipped out once his opponent starting playing by Eddington's own rules, and he ultimately got everyone killed when he finally PO'ed someone tougher than him.

If he was on VOY and tried a mutiny, he'd have gotten everyone killed there as well. What a wonderful show...

 

[TheGodBen]

Conflict over what? It would be stupid for the Maquis fighting the Fleeters over every last thing. That would result in everyone being dead in 3 months or so.

I perceive a lack of imagination on your part if you can't think of a realistic and interesting clash between the Maquis and Starfleet crews. My idea is this:

The Starfleet crew on Voyager are explorers who have undergone years of learning Starfleet rules and regulations, so much so that they could quote them in their sleep. The Maquis are freedom-fighters whose sole purpose is to get back home and back in the fight, they have no regulations or laws holding them back from taking the quickest way home possible.

Janeway constantly stops off at nebulas or planets because of her scientific curiosity (as happens on a constant basis in the show), and that goes against the goals of the Maquis crew who just want to find the fastest way home. The Maquis, and even some Starfleet crew members, should not bend over backwards to satisfy Janeway's whims, they would be angry and demand that she stop wasting time on useless technobabble adventures.

By the second season Voyager should be getting pounded by the Kazon because Starfleet regulations don't allow them to trade technology with them, and the Maquis should complain because they aren't limited by rules which only apply a lifetime away. This is an issue which was explored all too briefly at the beginning of Alliances, but at the end of the episode Janeway took completely the wrong message from the events which transpired and the Maquis didn't call her on it. There should have been more Maquis like Seska who were willing to trade with the Kazon, eventually leading to a power-struggle on the ship where Chakotay has to choose between his people and his captain. Things come to a head in the finale when some Maquis try to commandeer the ship and Janeway fights to stop them, then the Kazon show up and manage to take control of the ship in the confusion. The crew is stranded on the planet, as happened in Basics, and they put their differences behind them in order to survive. Once they get back on the ship they can all have learned from the experience.


Conflict. Realistic conflict which could spark interesting debates both on the show and on message boards such as this. Fascinating drama, no quantum-malengular anti-radeon bullshit.

 

[kimc]

Conflict over what? It would be stupid for the Maquis fighting the Fleeters over every last thing.

Not to mention that it would be human and therefore more realistic.

Character development? How does hating and wanting to kill everyone around you make a good character?

Again, because it's more human. People are hating and killing in real life, you know.

The thing with Trek though is that it was started with Roddenberry's vision that humanity had EVOLVED past the point of hating, killing, etc. Yes, many of us believe that's about as possible as transporter or replicator technology but that's the fun thing about science fiction - you can explore scenarios that may not be possible.

Shows like BSG deal with issues surrounding humanity as it exists today. Trek has traditionally dealt with the possibility of an evolved humanity. Personally I think there is a place in science fiction for both types of shows.

 

[Dusty Ayres]

Conflict over what? It would be stupid for the Maquis fighting the Fleeters over every last thing.

Not to mention that it would be human and therefore more realistic.

Then, realistically, they'd be dead. And they wouldn't be getting home.

Character development? How does hating and wanting to kill everyone around you make a good character?

Again, because it's more human. People are hating and killing in real life, you know.

Did you see my post about the conduct of naval officers during a time of crisis? Or did you forget?

I don't think anyone is seriously saying that. But for a series that's supposed to depict a crew which is stranded 70 years from their home fighting for their very survival, it seemed rather untroubled and light-hearted most of the time.

This is not Space:1999, and Voyager is not Moonbase Alpha, okay? They can control their ship, whereas Moonbase Alpha was truly lost (and a load of shite, to be frank.)

That I can't agree with either. I thought the premise was a pretty good one. It's a shame they never really did anything with it.

They did a lot with it-just not in the way that you wanted it shown, with completely fucked up people. Again, this is Star Trek we're talking about, and a lot of viewers other than you expect their characters to be better than that.

I agree, it's an admirable thing to stay humanly in an inhuman situation. But it should be shown how people have to struggle to preserve their humanity. It should be shown how hard it is in the face of the conditions the Voyager was in. They shouldn't be like that from the get-go just because it's teh future.

See above response.

Yeah, it might have been illogical for them to fight each other when they essentially had the same goal. But, you know, it's not like people act logical most of the time in real life.

For survivors of a nuclear holocaust, yes; for Starfleet officers whose mission is partly exploration, no.

And that's exactly what I have an issue with. Them solving the real problems was always just implied. There's no freakin' way I'd accept Neelix' throw-away line about some fucking root as a way of believably dealing with the problems of declining food supplies (in an episode [Tuvix] where this isn't even the issue). I mean, some lines in an episode about stopping off at a planet to stock up food isn't the same as actually doing an episode (or better: episodes) about how they have to struggle to get food.

As I said below, constantly showing things is not good storytelling. Also Neelix knew this area of space better than they did, so he would know what good food is from bad. That was his function as a character.

Yeah, you can always easily rationalize any problem they had with some lame technobabble, but that's not exactly what I call good, realistic storytelling. Why have the premise of a crew stranded that far from home when you don't want to show them really deal with these problems? Solving them off-screen (or by using some technobabble lines) is unacceptable for me. My problem with Voyager is that never for a tiny nanosecond did I really believe this crew honestly thought they'd have to spend the rest of their lives traveling home.

I had no problem with it, unlike you. And as for technobabble, I've heard worse medibabble and legalbabble on so many lawyer and medical shows that I don't care, or give a shit.

Which is all fine and good, but why not actually showing us these kind of things? Again, why having the premise of a stranded ship in the first place when all you want to do is episodic alien-of-the-week shows?

Having to show something all the time is not good or effective storytelling-something that Ron Moore doesn't quite understand yet.

As an aside, I don't think it was ever established that they could create gold-pressed latinum with the replicators. Thinking about it, that would be pretty stupid. Why then was is so valuable if you could easily create it with the replicator?

It was made clear by Next Generation writer Tracy Torme-by way of dismissing the need for the Ferengi-that they could make as much gold pressed latinum in a replicator, making it like sand on a beach. 'You need gold? Here, take a truck full and get lost!' Very simple thing for Janeway & Co. to replicate gold (or any currency or precious metal) to use to pay for repairs.

Why? I thought it was pretty refreshing to see a writer talk honestly about his experience with Star Trek and not sugar-coat everything. I love RDM's honesty.

It's unprofessional behavior to do so, and it's not honesty on his part, just sour grapes.

He should remember that Star Trek might be wacky doodle to him, but it's Gene Roddenberry's wacky doodle, and one can either accept it, or find some other show to work on.

Now that's just absurd. Gene Roddenberry had nothing whatsoever to do with Voyager.

Maybe so, but the spirit of what Roddenberry intended is still a part of Voyager, and it should be kept.

The people of Voyager are supposed to show what the best of humanity is like, not the worst-that's what Gene wanted

Who cares what he wanted? (Certainly not me.) So you're saying a Star Trek show should never change it's outlook on humanity, because years ago Roddenberry came up with the perfect (and not to mention unrealistic) people of The Next Generation? Thank God the writers of DS9 weren't that unimaginative and uncreative.

I'm not saying they should be super perfect, but at least they don't have to act like completely fracked-up people who can't get their shit together enough to be different from the enemy they're fighting, which is what the characters of Galactica were like. The question that Adama posed in the miniseries-'Why are we, as a people, worth saving?'-truly works with the casts of Next Generation, Deep Space 9, Voyager & Enterprise moreso than of Galactica, mostly because the former act in ways that are better then that of the latter. That's what, IMHO makes Voyager and the other Star Trek shows somewhat better than Battlestar Galactica.

 

[Lynx]

I must admit that I don't see any point in a conflict between the Starfleet and Maquis.

OK, Torres became tame a bit too quick (even if there was more than a month between the events in "Caretaker" and "Parallax" according to the Stardates) and there may have been some of them who had voiced their opinions now and then to Chakotay.

But if we look at it, the Maquis were 30 people, the Starfleet crew about 150. Some of the Maquis may have disliked Starfleet but they were no fools. Most of them were probably thinking "this ship is our only way to come back to the Alpha Quadrant and continue our fight with the Cardassians. We are 30 and they are 150 trained Starfleet personel. We can't take over this ship but we need it to get home. So let's cooperate with those Starfleet people. Besides that, Chakotay is our leader, he's a smart guy and if he is ready to cooperate with them, there must be some point in it."

Besides that, Starfleet and the Federation weren't the enemies, the Cardassian was. OK, most Maquis were p***ed off by the way the Federation had sold out their homeworlds to the Cardassians but there was a difference in how they regarded the Federation and how they regarded the Cardassians.

kimc wrote:

The thing with Trek though is that it was started with Roddenberry's vision that humanity had EVOLVED past the point of hating, killing, etc. Yes, many of us believe that's about as possible as transporter or replicator technology but that's the fun thing about science fiction - you can explore scenarios that may not be possible.

Shows like BSG deal with issues surrounding humanity as it exists today. Trek has traditionally dealt with the possibility of an evolved humanity. Personally I think there is a place in science fiction for both types of shows.

That's exactly what I like with Star Trek and what's make Star trek better than many other SF-series. It shows humans who have evolved to something better than what we have today and personally I do think it's possible.

Once upon a time, no one questioned wars. Today we are at least discussing ways to stop them when they break out. We are slowly beginning to understand that we need to cooperate if we want to have a future. It will take a very long time before we reach the scenario of Roddenberry but nothing is impossibe.

I also think that we need positive influences, positive scenarios and positive role models. There is too much negativism, doom and gloom in too many series today.

 

[Michael]

The thing with Trek though is that it was started with Roddenberry's vision that humanity had EVOLVED past the point of hating, killing, etc. Yes, many of us believe that's about as possible as transporter or replicator technology but that's the fun thing about science fiction - you can explore scenarios that may not be possible.

To me Roddenberry's vision is quite an overstated thing. I mean, it's not like he personally wrote much of any of the shows. It always comes off as more of a myth to me. In the beginning he might have created the people of TNG like that, but after that the various writers just carried on the notion. I never perceived the people of TOS to be so over the top perfect as the people on TNG and VOY. Even on DS9 humanity was mostly shown as having evolved to morally perfect beings, but the great difference was that there it seemed like they really had to struggle to live up to that maxim. They weren't perfect human beings by default. They were always aware of the fact that it is easier to hate, to get violent and to kill. Most of the time they managed to live by that maxim – many times they didn't (In the Pale Moonlight, Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges, Valiant among many others).

Then, realistically, they'd be dead. And they wouldn't be getting home.

Wow, and imagine how dramatic that would be! This is about drama, right?

Did you see my post about the conduct of naval officers during a time of crisis? Or did you forget?

Oh, trust me, I read your post carefully. It's just that I find it very unlikely (and more importantly: undramatic) that naval officers would keep up their noble behaviour if they really believed they'd spend the rest of their lives on this mission. I don't expect today's officers to act like that. And I don't think people of a far away future would either. At least not without sacrifices.

This is not Space:1999, and Voyager is not Moonbase Alpha, okay? They can control their ship, whereas Moonbase Alpha was truly lost (and a load of shite, to be frank.)

I'm not really sure what you're trying to get at with that. Yes, on Voyager they can control their ship. They're trying to get home. They'll need 70 years (as per the initial premise) to come home. For almost everyone onboard that means the rest of their lives. A show that has such a grim premise shouldn't be as light-hearted as Voyager was most of the time. Honestly, I don't think this show should have been overly dark and depressing (like some seem to perceive Battlestar Galactica). But I don't want to see them having a fun ride home with the occasional adventure every week either. They really don't need the premise then.

Oh, and I like Space: 1999 just fine, thank you.

They did a lot with it-just not in the way that you wanted it shown, with completely fucked up people. Again, this is Star Trek we're talking about, ...

Which shouldn't mean that it can't be able to change now and then.

As I said below, constantly showing things is not good storytelling.

On the contrary, a guideline for good storytelling has always been 'show, don't tell'.

And as for technobabble, I've heard worse medibabble and legalbabble on so many lawyer and medical shows that I don't care, or give a shit.

I think you're missing my point. I don't mind technobabble at all. It's just that it should never be used to generate drama or solve a plot point. Star Trek is set in the future, so I can understand why they have to use some technobabble. But not if it is used at the expense of real drama.

Having to show something all the time is not good or effective storytelling-something that Ron Moore doesn't quite understand yet.

I'd say Ron Moore understands that perfectly.

It was made clear by Next Generation writer Tracy Torme-by way of dismissing the need for the Ferengi-that they could make as much gold pressed latinum in a replicator, making it like sand on a beach. 'You need gold? Here, take a truck full and get lost!' Very simple thing for Janeway & Co. to replicate gold (or any currency or precious metal) to use to pay for repairs.

I'm quite sure that's a misunderstanding on your part. Latinum was never shown to be replicable. Here's what Memory Alpha has to say:

Latinum is a rare silver liquid used as currency by the Ferengi Alliance and many other worlds. It cannot be replicated.

Maybe so, but the spirit of what Roddenberry intended is still a part of Voyager, and it should be kept.

Again, why should it be kept? Just because it bears Star Trek in the name? It's sad that some people seem to think Star Trek shouldn't change. Way to bring down a franchise.

I must admit that I don't see any point in a conflict between the Starfleet and Maquis.

OK, Torres became tame a bit too quick (even if there was more than a month between the events in "Caretaker" and "Parallax" according to the Stardates) and there may have been some of them who had voiced their opinions now and then to Chakotay.

But if we look at it, the Maquis were 30 people, the Starfleet crew about 150. Some of the Maquis may have disliked Starfleet but they were no fools. Most of them were probably thinking "this ship is our only way to come back to the Alpha Quadrant and continue our fight with the Cardassians. We are 30 and they are 150 trained Starfleet personel. We can't take over this ship but we need it to get home. So let's cooperate with those Starfleet people. Besides that, Chakotay is our leader, he's a smart guy and if he is ready to cooperate with them, there must be some point in it."

Besides that, Starfleet and the Federation weren't the enemies, the Cardassian was. OK, most Maquis were p***ed off by the way the Federation had sold out their homeworlds to the Cardassians but there was a difference in how they regarded the Federation and how they regarded the Cardassians.

Which is all fine and good, but why then introduce the idea of two crews beings forced to work together in the first place if you don't want to show any conflict?

 

[Praetorian]

Isn't Roddenberry's vision that Humans can be better, "evolved", individuals if they chose to be so? And not without some pain? At least that's why got from TOS and even TNG, instead of "we're simply evolved and are perfect now!".

For example Kirk feels the urge to kill the Gorn, but choses not to. Instead of simply having no urge at all...

 

[Michael]

Isn't Roddenberry's vision that Humans can be better, "evolved", individuals if they chose to be so? And not without some pain? At least that's why got from TOS and even TNG, instead of "we're simply evolved and are perfect now!".

For example Kirk feels the urge to kill the Gorn, but choses not to. Instead of simply having no urge at all...

Amen. Thanks for the great example.

 

[Myasishchev]

Suitably small.

See, that's who I think about when I think of the Maquis. Eddington.

Thinking about it, he's about the only one who ever made them interesting.

Eddington was a delusional dope who flipped out once his opponent starting playing by Eddington's own rules, and he ultimately got everyone killed when he finally PO'ed someone tougher than him.

If he was on VOY and tried a mutiny, he'd have gotten everyone killed there as well. What a wonderful show...

Yeah, but he was still interesting, and still something of a badass, even if a delusional one. I'm not saying Chakotay should've been Eddington actually or a carbon-copy of him. I'm saying he should have more like him. (And less like a stone with a tattoo.) I'm saying that the Maquis should've always been Maquis, and resisted absortion into Starfleet until Janeway and Tuvok recognized that with their casualties they couldn't properly maintain the ship without them. Chakotay should not have been a "first officer," he should have been an equal to Janeway, with a smaller but more, in the Bolshevik sense, more disciplined, power base.

Even on DS9 humanity was mostly shown as having evolved to morally perfect beings, but the great difference was that there it seemed like they really had to struggle to live up to that maxim.

That's what I really liked about DS9. At the end of the day, these were all good and decent people, but flawed and hence human ones.

The Federation way, in the face of adversity and the absence of the Federation's loving embrace, is no trivial commitment. I'm reminded of the G.K. Chesterson quote, "The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried." The Federation ideal is one of almost unrealistic nobility, and is and ought to be extremely difficult to live up to. I'm all for Roddenberry's vision of a united, rationalist, loving human society--but we should never lie to ourselves, and Trek shouldn't lie to us, and tell us it's somehow easy.

The thing with Trek though is that it was started with Roddenberry's vision that humanity had EVOLVED past the point of hating, killing, etc.

The Maquis hated Cardassians. The Maquis killed them. This was pretty much their thing.

 

[DGCatAniSiri]

Roddenberry's idea of an evolved humanity may have worked had Voyager remained in the Alpha Quadrant, but remember Quark's brilliant statement about humanity in DS9's Siege of AR-558?

Let me tell you something about Hew-mons, nephew. They're a wonderful, friendly people – as long as their bellies are full and their holosuites are working. But take away their creature comforts... deprive them of food, sleep, sonic showers... put their lives in jeopardy over an extended period of time... and those same friendly, intelligent, wonderful people will become as nasty and violent as the most bloodthirsty Klingon. You don't believe me? Look at those faces, look at their eyes...

Realistically, with Voyager being preyed on by aggressive Delta Quadrant species - technologically primitive but numerous, attacking and attacking without leaving much time to effect repairs - it would have put a strain on these people and stripped them of their 'evolved' sensibilities.

 

[c0rnedfr0g]

Voyager would've been 100 times better with RDM at the helm. Much more fulfilling in every regard.

 

[Myasishchev]

Unless when they got back to AQ, it turned out

Spoiler: Daybreak

God did it. But, hey, at least God's an actual character in Star Trek, with an established history and motivation. And the quickest way to the AQ is through the Galactic Barrier after all.

Also, has it been long enough that I can quit putting spoiler tags on BSG's finale? Does anyone who cares not know what happened yet?

 

[Guy Gardener]

thats another thing that pissed me off. the DQ races, even the Kazon who seemed culturally inferior, backward even, were not as technologically inferior as the pilot clued us in was going to be the case... Voyager kept meeting ships at the same level of development that could give it a run for its money week after week until they met they Borg, and then it was opposite day because they didn't even pretend to sweat.

At most, everyone seemed to be a couple months behind federation tech in so that it was all virtually indistinguishable and uniform... But then Archers Enterprise for the most part superficially seemed to appear the same same, even if it velocified at a 10th the speed and it's weapons were a hundred times more inferior... Bah humbug.

 

[Michael]

Unless when they got back to AQ, it turned out

Spoiler: Daybreak

God did it. But, hey, at least God's an actual character in Star Trek, with an established history and motivation. And the quickest way to the AQ is through the Galactic Barrier after all.

Also, has it been long enough that I can quit putting spoiler tags on BSG's finale? Does anyone who cares not know what happened yet?

Argh! I clicked the spoiler not recognizing it was about Battlestar Galactica. I haven't seen the fourth season yet and only read the first sentence of your spoiler. I hope that wasn't the whole end of the series that was spoiled for me there.

EDIT: Yeah, please continue to use the spoiler code. Where I live the last season has not yet been broadcast on television.