World Premiere/Advance screening discussions [SPOILERS GUARANTEED]

[Admiral Buzzkill]

I have yet to read a single review of this film - including the couple that have not been wildly enthusiastic about it - that included the critique "needs more Shatner!"

 

[Kruge]

Starship - there won't be one either

I love Shatner...in so much as one can love Shatner

But I think that if anyone deserves to pass the torch, it's Spock

Plus, if what the spoilers are saying are true about what happens to the Vulcans and Spock Prime's ultimate fate/decision/whatever, then he has a very important role to play

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

SOrry but I think my point was misunderstood. After all the talk about "the original unaltered time line", I wondered why no one seems to realize that it never existed anymore after the events of Voyage Home. At that point a new altered time line was created. One where humanity lives.

Not necessarily. We never saw a timeline where humanity was exterminated, so for all we know, one never existed. Kirk and crew got back in time to prevent that future from occurring. Notice how they didn't erase anything that had originally occurred? They returned immediately *after* they left. There was only one timeline in that film.

 

[Captain59]

The whole story about Vulcan getting destroyed and the species feeling like it's on the vurge of extinction reminds me of the ENT episode "Twilight." I wonder if the writers were aware of this episode when they wrote that storyline.

 

[Kruge]

That is EXACTLY what this reminded me of Captain59
And you know what? That may not be a bad thing, because in this instance, there is no going back...not that its impossible, but that I would hope that they WOULDNT, and that the scattering of the Vulcan people adds to the drama of the next film(s)

 

[mswood]

SOrry but I think my point was misunderstood. After all the talk about "the original unaltered time line", I wondered why no one seems to realize that it never existed anymore after the events of Voyage Home. At that point a new altered time line was created. One where humanity lives.

Not necessarily. We never saw a timeline where humanity was exterminated, so for all we know, one never existed. Kirk and crew got back in time to prevent that future from occurring. Notice how they didn't erase anything that had originally occurred? They returned immediately *after* they left. There was only one timeline in that film.

George & Gracie were not native to that time. Without time travel Earths population would have died. That is what altered the timeline. It wasn't a naturally occurring event that did this. They (humans and alien) altered the timeline.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

But I think that if anyone deserves to pass the torch, it's Spock

He was there at the beginning, with Captain Pike...and he's there at the end with another Captain Pike.

I like that.

 

[Kruge]

Yes...Spock has always been my favorite character...I don't care what anyone thinks, I teared up the first time I saw WOK, and will tear up this time I'm sure...

It fits the story well...I think that having Kirk or someone else in the film, well, they would try to find a way to get back "home", or, like Picard said, "Find a quite corner and stay out of history's way"

But if these early spoilers are correct, then Spock once again decides to take the noble, selfless course, and aids his people in surviving their near-extinction.

He has no logical reason to do so...the "prime" universe still exists...certainly, with his intellect, he could figure out someway to return...this is a completely alternate UNIVERSE for God's sake, this is NOT his "Vulcan", that was not (SPOILER)"his mother" who is killed

And yet his only reasoning is that there are many, and they have needs, and we know the rest...

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Spock has always been my favorite character in all of Star Trek, from the very beginning. I had a strong first impression of the character on seeing him sitting on the Bridge talking to Uhura, in "The Man Trap."

 

[Kruge]

LOL yeah and now the new Spock has a thing going on with Mrs. Jones er Uhura

Interesting

 

[Captain Robert April]

SOrry but I think my point was misunderstood. After all the talk about "the original unaltered time line", I wondered why no one seems to realize that it never existed anymore after the events of Voyage Home. At that point a new altered time line was created. One where humanity lives.

Not necessarily. We never saw a timeline where humanity was exterminated, so for all we know, one never existed. Kirk and crew got back in time to prevent that future from occurring. Notice how they didn't erase anything that had originally occurred? They returned immediately *after* they left. There was only one timeline in that film.

George & Gracie were not native to that time. Without time travel Earths population would have died. That is what altered the timeline. It wasn't a naturally occurring event that did this. They (humans and alien) altered the timeline.

Predestination paradox. Gillian and the whales were always intended to go forward to the 23rd Century and stop that probe.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

SOrry but I think my point was misunderstood. After all the talk about "the original unaltered time line", I wondered why no one seems to realize that it never existed anymore after the events of Voyage Home. At that point a new altered time line was created. One where humanity lives.

Not necessarily. We never saw a timeline where humanity was exterminated, so for all we know, one never existed. Kirk and crew got back in time to prevent that future from occurring. Notice how they didn't erase anything that had originally occurred? They returned immediately *after* they left. There was only one timeline in that film.

George & Gracie were not native to that time. Without time travel Earths population would have died. That is what altered the timeline. It wasn't a naturally occurring event that did this. They (humans and alien) altered the timeline.

The flaw in your arguement is in your presumption that there was an altered history to UNalter. The Whalesong probe was NOT from the future, therefore it did not alter the proper flow of history. Neither did Kirk and crew because they ALSO were contemporaneous with the events happening, and not time travellers.

It's the same as the Gary Seven episode...everything that happened was what was SUPPOSED to happen.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

He has no logical reason to do so...the "prime" universe still exists...certainly, with his intellect, he could figure out someway to return...this is a completely alternate UNIVERSE for God's sake, this is NOT his "Vulcan", that was not (SPOILER)"his mother" who is killed

And yet his only reasoning is that there are many, and they have needs, and we know the rest...

Consider that there was essentially nothing for Spock to go back TO. Romulus was gone. The Vulcans didn't want him much either. What would he have done if he HAD gone back?

 

[Captain X]

Using his ship to blow up the Narda probably helped his decision to stay, I would guess...

 

[Kruge]

Missing the point...its just my interpretation of what supposedly happens in the film, and I'm judging it based on his past actions

Technology never seems to hinder characters in star trek...where there's a will, there's a way...a list of techobabble, followed by a simple, real world allusion explaining how it would work

My point is simply that Spock is the best character to use to serve as a sort of link b/w the two continuities...thats all

 

[Kruge]

In other words, don't turn this into a "thing"

 

[EJA]

No, EJA, this is something different. This is Marvel Comics style time-travel, where you can't change the past--you instead create a new quantum reality. It's like the issue where Ben Grimm goes back in time to cure himself of being the Thing as a younger man. All he did was create a new universe where a younger Ben Grimm was no longer the Thing, with a new history branching off from there. When Ben returned to his own time there where no changes, as he simply created a timeline that now exists parallel to his own.

From what we've seen in past Star Trek movies and TV episodes, that isn't how time travel works in the Trekverse. If characters go back in time and introduce something that wasn't there before, the existing timeline is altered. What happens after does not happen in an alternate universe; it's the same universe, but with slightly different events. Time travel effects the existing universe, it doesn't create whole new ones.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

No, EJA, this is something different. This is Marvel Comics style time-travel, where you can't change the past--you instead create a new quantum reality. It's like the issue where Ben Grimm goes back in time to cure himself of being the Thing as a younger man. All he did was create a new universe where a younger Ben Grimm was no longer the Thing, with a new history branching off from there. When Ben returned to his own time there where no changes, as he simply created a timeline that now exists parallel to his own.

From what we've seen in past Star Trek movies and TV episodes, that isn't how time travel works in the Trekverse. If characters go back in time and introduce something that wasn't there before, the existing timeline is altered. What happens after does not happen in an alternate universe; it's the same universe, but with slightly different events. Time travel effects the existing universe, it doesn't create whole new ones.

Parallel universes DO exist, and people can move between them physically AND Temporally (cf the Mirror Universe episodes of TOS, DS9 and ENT, the episodes "Parallells" and "All Good Things").

Different means of temporal/dimensional transportation have different effects. Some (warp speed "breakaway" from a high gravity well, Kerr Loops) affect time travel within a single timeline. Some (subspace interaction with an ion storm) cause a cross dimensional shift while remaining in the same relative time within the two lines). Some ("interphase" phenomina, passing through a singularity) cause both dimensional AND chronological travel.

Sorry, no rules violation here. You are free to dislike the movie if you wish, but your grounds are not supported by the facts.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

From what we've seen in past Star Trek movies and TV episodes, that isn't how time travel works in the Trekverse. If characters go back in time and introduce something that wasn't there before, the existing timeline is altered. What happens after does not happen in an alternate universe; it's the same universe, but with slightly different events. Time travel effects the existing universe, it doesn't create whole new ones.

It doesn't matter how it worked in the oldTrek universe. This is how it works now.

 

[Augustus]

From what we've seen in past Star Trek movies and TV episodes, that isn't how time travel works in the Trekverse. If characters go back in time and introduce something that wasn't there before, the existing timeline is altered. What happens after does not happen in an alternate universe; it's the same universe, but with slightly different events. Time travel effects the existing universe, it doesn't create whole new ones.

It doesn't matter how it worked in the oldTrek universe. This is how it works now.

Yeah, I agree. we don't know that didn't happen before. I mean what if time travel created new ones?? What if the events of the voyage home created a new universe where the whales saved the day and the old universe earth and its people were destroyed.