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Time travel

if we were to put say "hallucinatory drugs" in the air? maybe we would all experience some kind of time travel or at least we could think we are traveling (through or) In time

and in time we would get used to this traveling through time, so, like we would do it all the time?

Are you okay?

is that a multiple choice question or what?

no I AM: ok: just traveling around the forums in general redundancy and radical tactlessness of sorts

I will mock myself in the hope that I should wake to find me making fun of the self that is what I know I AM

thanks for the concern btw much needed at different times from this and then - then and there.
 
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There are several arrows of time, One is thermodynamic, another associated with the expansion of this Universe.


I actually have an intuition that time is somehow related to the expansion of the universe. I suspect that the ENTIRE universe is expanding--not just space but everything it contains. This includes matter and all the objects it makes (you and me included). This expansion is imperceptible on the small scale because we are more or less expanding simultaneously. After all, if you were in a room and growing and everyone in the room AND the room itself were growing at about the same rate and you had no standard reference for scale, how would you ever perceive you were growing?

The reason that the expansion of space can be detected is because of gravity. Objects made of matter expand more slowly due to the gravitational fields they create. "Empty" space expands at a quicker rate than, say, a planet does. This is also demonstrated by experiments that indicate time "moves" more quickly in low gravity environment and is "slower" in a heavy gravity environment. I think if it were possible to place a measuring device in intergalactic space far from any strong gravity fields, you'd see it measuring the passage of time as faster than on Earth. This may have a related aspect to the idea that time passes more "slowly" at near relativistic speeds based on the idea that the inherent inertia of an object moving at such a velocity (approaching "infinite mass) creates an artificial "gravity field". Not a true gravity field, mind you, but inertia interferes with the expansion of an object and thus "pulls it out" of "normal" time.

It's a wacky idea, I know, but one I find intriguing on occasion. I can't feature how, even if this WERE true, that one could use it to travel BACKWARD in time--but if one were to do so, you might find yourself unexpectedly BIGGER than you would anticipate as the universe and everything in it was literally a smaller place in the "past". Of course, the further "back" you went in time, the LARGER you would be relative to your surroundings, so watch those ceilings, folks.


Even though I've mentioned it in two or three threads and at least once previously here, I find it amazing that no one ever even COMMENTS about my "Nature of Time" concept . . . :(
 
There are several arrows of time, One is thermodynamic, another associated with the expansion of this Universe.


I actually have an intuition that time is somehow related to the expansion of the universe. I suspect that the ENTIRE universe is expanding--not just space but everything it contains. This includes matter and all the objects it makes (you and me included). This expansion is imperceptible on the small scale because we are more or less expanding simultaneously. After all, if you were in a room and growing and everyone in the room AND the room itself were growing at about the same rate and you had no standard reference for scale, how would you ever perceive you were growing?

The reason that the expansion of space can be detected is because of gravity. Objects made of matter expand more slowly due to the gravitational fields they create. "Empty" space expands at a quicker rate than, say, a planet does. This is also demonstrated by experiments that indicate time "moves" more quickly in low gravity environment and is "slower" in a heavy gravity environment. I think if it were possible to place a measuring device in intergalactic space far from any strong gravity fields, you'd see it measuring the passage of time as faster than on Earth. This may have a related aspect to the idea that time passes more "slowly" at near relativistic speeds based on the idea that the inherent inertia of an object moving at such a velocity (approaching "infinite mass) creates an artificial "gravity field". Not a true gravity field, mind you, but inertia interferes with the expansion of an object and thus "pulls it out" of "normal" time.

It's a wacky idea, I know, but one I find intriguing on occasion. I can't feature how, even if this WERE true, that one could use it to travel BACKWARD in time--but if one were to do so, you might find yourself unexpectedly BIGGER than you would anticipate as the universe and everything in it was literally a smaller place in the "past". Of course, the further "back" you went in time, the LARGER you would be relative to your surroundings, so watch those ceilings, folks.


Even though I've mentioned it in two or three threads and at least once previously here, I find it amazing that no one ever even COMMENTS about my "Nature of Time" concept . . . :(

the Nature of time concept is easily developed as 'all' possible But to what end? Just where is the purpose or goal of making time travel possible. It is us, we can image ourselves on a movie set taking place say 100 years ago but then what? As we did not travel time and yet we are caught in the illusion of time travel.,

In the west-world movie or Shakespearean plays et,c. it is really all illusion and the light of day that is so bright that we immediately go blind as we wake in the morning., life's shadows are all we can notice in the act of being alive sometimes and with some - time we can get to post here and there across the epons within eons creating meaninglessness' ideas that can form the structure for several books., why write a book but just be a part of a forum.
 
if we were to put say "hallucinatory drugs" in the air? maybe we would all experience some kind of time travel or at least we could think we are traveling (through or) In time

and in time we would get used to this traveling through time, so, like we would do it all the time?


Sounds like you may have already taken a nip of them yourself...

;)

Not that I think that's a bad thing...(it just explains why you are talking like a cast member of "My Dinner With Andre" or "Waking Life"...)
 
Just a friendly reminder, please, post, not poster. think, you have a rather...unique style. When I can parse what you're saying, it's usually interesting. :)

I'm getting a "time travel in the mind, if not the body" vibe off of what you're saying. Is that what you're going for? The idea of intellectual versus physical time travel is interesting. Basically futurism versus physics. An interesting thought.

As for the why write a book? Because I can. :techman:
 
Also, if there are infinite universes and every possible outcome actually happens somewhere, then if I imagine myself traveling to an alternate universe and looking through my alternate self's bedroom window and looking at my alternate self, that means that in a small number of these universes, this has actually happened. But if that's the case, why is it that when I look out my bedroom window, there is not alternate version of me looking back?

(brain explodes again)

You happen to live in one of the universes where you didn't look in your window. Not to mention that if all it took to create an alt universe was to imagine it, then by imagining a universe that allowed time travel would create such a universe. Now you've simplified the time travel problem, and now must simply figure out how to slide to that alt-universe.
 
Just a friendly reminder, please, post, not poster.


(I don't know if this part was directed at me...just in case, I wasn't trying to troll or flame the poster...I like his/her..."unique style"...very much. Just strikes me as very...altered states of consciousness-ish influenced. But in an interesting way...)
 
I would like to be able send my consciousness back in time because there are certain things I really, really regret doing/saying/not doing/not saying in my past, and - especially lately - I deeply long for a way to travel back and relive them knowing what I know now.

At the same time...I wouldn't want to undo my kids existence...or even the existence of their 1/2 siblings born after their mother and I divorced.

In my fantasy universe...I would also have Q-like powers to exist on/in multiple timelines...or to weave together probability threads I like...differently...but keeping the ones I like and discarding the ones I don't...and making an overall pattern I like more, but keeping some of the elements (designs, shapes, whatever...) I prefer.

(I read a novel once called "Memories", about a drug-induced time travel...and it got me thinking that if I did believe in a soul...a nice way to spend my time after death would be wandering back and getting second chances at those things I regret...)
 
There are several arrows of time, One is thermodynamic, another associated with the expansion of this Universe.


I actually have an intuition that time is somehow related to the expansion of the universe. I suspect that the ENTIRE universe is expanding--not just space but everything it contains. This includes matter and all the objects it makes (you and me included). This expansion is imperceptible on the small scale because we are more or less expanding simultaneously. After all, if you were in a room and growing and everyone in the room AND the room itself were growing at about the same rate and you had no standard reference for scale, how would you ever perceive you were growing?

The reason that the expansion of space can be detected is because of gravity. Objects made of matter expand more slowly due to the gravitational fields they create. "Empty" space expands at a quicker rate than, say, a planet does. This is also demonstrated by experiments that indicate time "moves" more quickly in low gravity environment and is "slower" in a heavy gravity environment. I think if it were possible to place a measuring device in intergalactic space far from any strong gravity fields, you'd see it measuring the passage of time as faster than on Earth. This may have a related aspect to the idea that time passes more "slowly" at near relativistic speeds based on the idea that the inherent inertia of an object moving at such a velocity (approaching "infinite mass) creates an artificial "gravity field". Not a true gravity field, mind you, but inertia interferes with the expansion of an object and thus "pulls it out" of "normal" time.

It's a wacky idea, I know, but one I find intriguing on occasion. I can't feature how, even if this WERE true, that one could use it to travel BACKWARD in time--but if one were to do so, you might find yourself unexpectedly BIGGER than you would anticipate as the universe and everything in it was literally a smaller place in the "past". Of course, the further "back" you went in time, the LARGER you would be relative to your surroundings, so watch those ceilings, folks.

Question though: If your speculation is correct; IF the Un iverse ever started to contract; does that mean (in effect), objects would start moving backward throgh time (eg. the Bejamin Button effect)?
 
Terri, does your last line imply your next book will have time travel in it?

Actually, part of it will deal with what could be called time travel, but it's not a major part of the story, no.

Just a friendly reminder, please, post, not poster.


(I don't know if this part was directed at me...just in case, I wasn't trying to troll or flame the poster...I like his/her..."unique style"...very much. Just strikes me as very...altered states of consciousness-ish influenced. But in an interesting way...)

Not directed at you, it just seemed that people were talking more about the style of the post than the content, that's all. :)
 
There are several arrows of time, One is thermodynamic, another associated with the expansion of this Universe.


I actually have an intuition that time is somehow related to the expansion of the universe. I suspect that the ENTIRE universe is expanding--not just space but everything it contains. This includes matter and all the objects it makes (you and me included). This expansion is imperceptible on the small scale because we are more or less expanding simultaneously. After all, if you were in a room and growing and everyone in the room AND the room itself were growing at about the same rate and you had no standard reference for scale, how would you ever perceive you were growing?

The reason that the expansion of space can be detected is because of gravity. Objects made of matter expand more slowly due to the gravitational fields they create. "Empty" space expands at a quicker rate than, say, a planet does. This is also demonstrated by experiments that indicate time "moves" more quickly in low gravity environment and is "slower" in a heavy gravity environment. I think if it were possible to place a measuring device in intergalactic space far from any strong gravity fields, you'd see it measuring the passage of time as faster than on Earth. This may have a related aspect to the idea that time passes more "slowly" at near relativistic speeds based on the idea that the inherent inertia of an object moving at such a velocity (approaching "infinite mass) creates an artificial "gravity field". Not a true gravity field, mind you, but inertia interferes with the expansion of an object and thus "pulls it out" of "normal" time.

It's a wacky idea, I know, but one I find intriguing on occasion. I can't feature how, even if this WERE true, that one could use it to travel BACKWARD in time--but if one were to do so, you might find yourself unexpectedly BIGGER than you would anticipate as the universe and everything in it was literally a smaller place in the "past". Of course, the further "back" you went in time, the LARGER you would be relative to your surroundings, so watch those ceilings, folks.

Question though: If your speculation is correct; IF the Un iverse ever started to contract; does that mean (in effect), objects would start moving backward throgh time (eg. the Bejamin Button effect)?


It seems a reasonable extrapolation. The question then, of course, becomes how would our awareness be effected? Would we be conscious of impending events because they would have already "happened" and be able to anticipate them (foretelling the "past"?)? Would we (and events) simply run in reverse like a film playing backwards? Or, finally, would there simply be a whole new series of episodes played out in a universe where time-based reactions (chemical, nuclear etc) run in reverse (bombs "unexplode" for example) but a different "events" occur within the limitations of these "reverse" laws of physics?


If one accepts that "time" is a dimension and movement along a given axis is equal to movement in that dimension, then there must be some kind of "movement" along the axis of "time" for it to function anything like the first three dimensions (length, width and height). The "direction" of the axis of those three dimensions is readily perceptible in our eyes. Physical motion equates to "movement" along these dimensions. Those same characteristic, length, width and height, along with the characteristic of "duration" from time, allow an object to physically exist in our universe. They give an object "presence" and an object exists with length, width and height without necessarily MOVING through to dimensions, but it is movement through those dimensions relative to a fixed point that we can calculate the measure of that "presence" Similarly, with time, we count "duration" relative to an established fixed measure ( a moment, a day, a year etc). But separate from the first three dimensions, "time" appears to be unique in that is is the sole dimension that we can:

A: move only one direction in and

B: APPARENTLY we move through without the component of physical change of location; a requirement for movement in the first three dimensions.

YET, movement in time is IMPACTED by influences which ALSO effect physical movement through space. Gravity, for example, limits the ability to move along the dimension of "height" (the definition of "height" being the angle perpendicular to the source of the gravitational field). Time "moves" more slowly relative to the proximity to a gravity field. I've read that time may actually HALT at the event horizon of a black hole. Still, the more distant one moves from a source of gravity, the weaker the influence of that gravity field and the "faster" time moves. Thus gravity actually effects our movement along TWO dimensions--height and "time".

When one approaches relativistic speeds, "time" slows for the travelers relative to outside observers. In this regard, perhaps INERTIA performs the same inhibiting mechanism as gravity but along a different axis line--one opposite to the angle of trajectory of the traveler and thus retarding "movement" along the dimension of "time".

The first three dimensions are impacted and influenced by physical movement. So, we see time is ALSO effected by influences which impact physical movement along these same dimensions. How then, if physical movement is required to travel along the dimension of time, could we be "moving" and not know it?

We know the universe is expanding. Perhaps the dimension of "time", unlike the first three dimensions, is composed not of just ONE angle of travel, but 360 degrees of angles, moving outward in all directions simultaneously from the center or focus of the LOCAL gravity field. All objects with mass generate their own gravity, even my own body. If I am "expanding" from my "center of gravity" I AM moving, physically and thus I am also "moving" along the axis of the dimension of "time". BUT, if everything I can reference around me is ALSO "expanding" (including "empty" space), my "movement" would be imperceptible to me. I can't even measure it because all my MEASURING tools are ALSO expanding at roughly the same rate. BTW Let's also not forget that the dimensions of length, width and height are ALSO measured based, essentially on the center of any object's physical presence.

Only when we look at great areas of deep space where the is VERY little gravity to retard both the expansion AND movement through time, can we see the difference. Conversely, in a black hole, the most intense of gravitational fields, movement along ALL four dimensions is severely restricted. And, quite the opposite of "expanding", the example of a singularity become the smallest and most COMPACT structure we know. It is infinitely small, thus having no true width, height or length, and "time" ceases forward movement at the event horizon. ALL four verifiable and known dimensions are "locked down".

How ANY of this would lead to an ability to travel backward in time, I have no idea. It might be as simple as selecting the right angle of travel relative to a strong gravitational field or inertial influence.
 
Good luck with the book Terri.., I once wrote a time log journal entry simulating a fictional character I had developed and was developing called 'xoet 12' The way I tried to approach the writing was to first second guess what I was going to say the next time I wrote then the next time I wrote I would reply to what I originally wrote about. I posted the story @ livejournal here.. http://xoet.livejournal.com/1626.html I wrote it about three years ago and yes livejournal is still kicking and after I remember where it was posted I signed in and got the link. things on the net seem to get stuck in time .,

It may be possible with the right amount of motovation to create an actual reply to that entry at the three year mark because toward the end of the writing I was jumping years of time.

so yes the character is xoet twelve and he/she is portrayed as an It. and yes this is very much a trek universe. :) the setting is a mirror/time portal that twelve would talk to It's future selves. and then back to past selves as well.
 
the Novikov Consistency Principle, where if you intervene in the past to change events time just alters itself to render that change inert...

Let's assume information can travel into the past. What will happen?

The Novikov Consistency Principle says - nothing. A time traveller (or information sent into the past) won't change anything, because the events of the past will modify themselves so as to prevent any such changes.
This is only possible if there exists a previously undiscovered physical law that supersedes all other laws - ironically, including causality - and that nullifies any changes one attempts to make to the past.

I don't know that either of those is really the best explanation for the Novikov Self-Consistency Principle. The principle (which Lost succinctly refers to as "whatever happened, happened") *doesn't* mean that the universe tries to stop you from doing anything in the past, or that it makes your actions in the past unimportant. It means that if you go back in time, then whatever you do in the past has always been part of the timeline and will always be part of the timeline. There is no "change".

If I go back in time from 2009 to 2008, I can still do all kinds of crazy things in 2008, but those things were always part of history. The one and only time that 2008 rolled around, the universe already "knew" that I was going to go back in time to that year, and everything I did there was already accounted for. Of course I have no idea as to whether time travel would actually work that way (nor does anyone else), but time travel stories that follow that kind of logic are definitely my favorite.
 
the Novikov Consistency Principle, where if you intervene in the past to change events time just alters itself to render that change inert...

Let's assume information can travel into the past. What will happen?

The Novikov Consistency Principle says - nothing. A time traveller (or information sent into the past) won't change anything, because the events of the past will modify themselves so as to prevent any such changes.
This is only possible if there exists a previously undiscovered physical law that supersedes all other laws - ironically, including causality - and that nullifies any changes one attempts to make to the past.

I don't know that either of those is really the best explanation for the Novikov Self-Consistency Principle. The principle (which Lost succinctly refers to as "whatever happened, happened") *doesn't* mean that the universe tries to stop you from doing anything in the past, or that it makes your actions in the past unimportant. It means that if you go back in time, then whatever you do in the past has always been part of the timeline and will always be part of the timeline. There is no "change".

If I go back in time from 2009 to 2008, I can still do all kinds of crazy things in 2008, but those things were always part of history. The one and only time that 2008 rolled around, the universe already "knew" that I was going to go back in time to that year, and everything I did there was already accounted for. Of course I have no idea as to whether time travel would actually work that way (nor does anyone else), but time travel stories that follow that kind of logic are definitely my favorite.

The Novikov Consistency Principle will work as you say in two instances:

1. When the time traveller doesn't know much about the past he is trying to change. In this case, events unknown to him will derail his attempts to change the past, causing the timeline to happen just as it happened.

2 When the time traveller is well informed about history, but he doesn't want to change it. He just goes back to "play his role" as it is recorded in the history books.

The Novikov Consistency Principle will have to break causality in order to preserve an immutable past when the time traveler has detailed knowledge about the past that he wants to change.
In this case, no unforseen events will stop him from reaching his objective. Unless some events have an outcome different from the original one - an outcome that was not caused by the time traveller who is careful not to interfere in these events, either directly or indirectly.
In other words, these new outcomes, these new effects have no cause - they break causality.
 
The Novikov Consistency Principle will work as you say in two instances:

1. When the time traveller doesn't know much about the past he is trying to change. In this case, events unknown to him will derail his attempts to change the past, causing the timeline to happen just as it happened.

2 When the time traveller is well informed about history, but he doesn't want to change it. He just goes back to "play his role" as it is recorded in the history books.

The Novikov Consistency Principle will have to break causality in order to preserve an immutable past when the time traveler has detailed knowledge about the past that he wants to change.
In this case, no unforseen events will stop him from reaching his objective. Unless some events have an outcome different from the original one - an outcome that was not caused by the time traveller who is careful not to interfere in these events, either directly or indirectly.
In other words, these new outcomes, these new effects have no cause - they break causality.

I don't think that's quite correct. I mean, you have something of a point in that, if a time traveler were to intentionally try to cause a paradox, then seemingly improbable events would have to occur in order to prevent him from doing so. But, with "whatever happened, happened" rules, those events always existed. They were always part of the timeline. So phrases like "an outcome different from the original one" wouldn't make sense, because there is no "original" timeline. Just the one and only timeline.
 
If "those events" always existed, an informed time traveller would know about them and would be able to change them - and the past - creating a new timeline. So, the "whatever happened, happened" rule would not apply.

An informed time traveller could be stopped from changing the past only if these events didn't exist in this form prior to the time traveller's jouney into the past and only if the events were not changed by the time traveller - who would be careful about what changes he makes.

For example - let's say a time traveller wants to kill a person in the past. He knows that his victim originally lived beyond the past day he chose for his assasination attempt. He also has detailed knowledge about the victim's activities in that day and has concieved his assasination plan accordingly.

The time traveller will only be stopped:
if his weapon malfunctions - which is extremely improbable, because, let's say, he checked the weapon in detail prior to the time travel; he could also try to assasinate his victim multiple times with different weapons, until he accomplishes his goal - if his weapons keep malfunctioning, the Novikov Consistency Principle breaks the laws of probability;
if a victim's friend interferes - which did not happen in the original timeline - the Novikov Consistency Principle breaks causality;
if another time traveller interferes - which did not happen in the original timeline - if this happens every time a time traveller tries to change the past, then the Novikov Consistency Principle breaks probability;
etc.

In conclusion, in order to stop the well informed time traveller, the Novikov Consistency Principle has to break either causality (when events from the time traveller's past have changed without a cause) or probability (when extremly improbable events from the traveller's present or future are happening just to stop him).
 
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If "those events" always existed, an informed time traveller would know about them and would be able to change them - and the past - creating a new timeline. So, the "whatever happened, happened" rule would not apply.

An informed time traveller could be stopped from changing the past only if these events didn't exist in this form prior to the time traveller's jouney into the past and only if the events were not changed by the time traveller - who would be careful about what changes he makes.

No, that's not what the Novikov SCP means. It doesn't matter what you know. You can't "change" anything, or cause the rules of time travel themselves to change. Any attempt to cause a paradox will fail.

Read the wiki page on the Novikov SCP, and read the billiard ball example. In that case, an experiment is set up that is supposed to cause a paradox, but it doesn't, because the billiard ball ends up hitting itself at just the right angle to prevent a paradox. The ball hitting itself at just the right angle is something that was always part of history. It doesn't matter what you try to do. If the SCP governs the rules of time travel, then there's no way to "break" it by using information from the future.

If you disagree, then give me a specific counterexample.

Edit: Wait, I just read the edit on your post. Give me a minute to respond to that.... :)
 
For example - let's say a time traveller wants to kill a person in the past. He knows that his victim originally lived beyond the past day he chose for his assasination attempt. He also has detailed knowledge about the victim's activities in that day and has concieved his assasination plan accordingly.
The time traveller will only be stopped:
if his weapon malfunctions - which is extremely improbable, because, let's say, he checked the weapon in detail prior to the time travel; he could also try to assasinate his victim multiple times with different weapons, until he accomplishes his goal;
if a victim's friend interferes - which did not happen in the original timeline;
if another time traveller interferes - which did not happen in the original timeline;
etc.

But see, that's the thing. According to the Novikov SCP, one of those seemingly improbable things *will* happen, if it's the only way to avert a paradox, and that seemingly improbable thing will have always been part of the timeline. If I understand the SCP correctly, the logic goes something like this:

- Quantum mechanics governs the outcome of events in a probabilistic way. Maybe the probability of a particular particle being observed with a clockwise spin is 50%, while the probability of it being observed with a counterclockwise spin is also 50%.

- If you add time travel into the mix, then certain outcomes will lead to paradoxes....a particular particle having a clockwise spin might cause that particle to collide with itself and prevent itself from time traveling in the first place.

- The universe disallows any of those states (that would lead to paradoxes) from existing. The quantum probabilities of things happening will be skewed in such a way so that only self-consistent timeloops can exist. And the thinking is that, for any set of initial conditions, there is at least *one* self-consistent solution. So no matter what you do, there will be perfect self-consistency, and no paradoxes will arise.

At least, this is my reading of the example with the billiard ball. The billiard ball hits itself at just the right angle, because that's the only way to avoid a paradox.
 
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