Least favorite Buffy characters

[tharpdevenport]

Anya
Dawn
Riley
ALL of the potential Slayers.
And the ever boring Tara.

 

[TremblingBluStar]

Interesting...this would also explain why there has been no rush to exploit (beyond the comics) the one arguably good property still left in Joss' arsenal. He'd have to recast.

I wish we could have a discussion of this show without having someone who cannot make a certifiable and believable claim of grasping reality show up saying such and such an actor felt such and such a way about Joss.

Was anybody here on the show? Anybody know SMG personally? I thought not.

And I find it amusing that we are on the one hand mocking Whedon for his failures in creating successful properties after Buffy while on the second hand comparing him to Lucas, who has been milking Star Wars for so long it's nipples are sore.

 

[Rii]

I'd have to go with early-seasons Xander, a character devoted to the undiscriminating pursuit of any woman that crossed his path. He didn't develop beyond that until mid-S3's "The Zeppo". I particularly like how Cordelia's lambasting of him in that episode is echoed in a very different light in his conversation with Dawn in S7's "Potential".

S5 Spike is another contender, "Fool for Love" excepted. This from one of those "serial killer groupies" who likes S6.

 

[Thrall]

Your dislike for Whedon is clearly bordering on stalker-ish obsession.

No, I'm dismissive and apathetic towards him nowadays. I used to be far more hostile in my dislike.

And I can think of much more interesting people I'd rather stalk anyway. Like Al Rooker. Not because I like Al Rooker. But because no one would see it coming.

So why are certain people getting their panties bunched up over a crotchity british vampire who was loved by fans because he was fun to watch?

Hey, you started it when you tried to imply that my dislike of Spike was misguided. It's very guided actually.

Much like Whedon, you willfully over estimate how popular he was. Because The All-Spike Years's ratings decline speak for itself. Not saying he doesn't have his fans. I'm saying he wasn't popular enough to base the whole show around.

So why are people wasting their energy hating a stupid cheezy vampire character that was never meant to be taken seriously???

Yeah, because that part where he made Buffy have sex in front of her friends, that was just so hilarious! Or that part where he tried to rape Buffy. What zaniness! Or the part where he showed nothing but contempt for his victims, when in the midst of blatant hero worship. Oh my God, I thought I was going to die laughing.

 

[OdoWanKenobi]

Hmmm, perhaps I don't remember that scene very well. I could have sworn that his attempted rape of Buffy wasn't played for laughs. Maybe I missed the point. I also seem to recall him being so disgusted with himself that he fled to find redemption (his soul.) I also recall at least on character never EVER forgiving him for his misdeeds.


You know, there's a pretty popular show out there right now where the main character is a serial killer. I don't see anyone out there calling fans of that show sick murderer-worshippers

 

[Thrall]

Hmmm, perhaps I don't remember that scene very well. I could have sworn that his attempted rape of Buffy wasn't played for laughs. Maybe I missed the point. I also seem to recall him being so disgusted with himself that he fled to find redemption (his soul.) I also recall at least on character never EVER forgiving him for his misdeeds.

Because if it's one thing I give a shit about, it's a rapists feelings.

You know, there's a pretty popular show out there right now where the main character is a serial killer. I don't see anyone out there calling fans of that show sick murderer-worshippers

Dexter doesn't kill innocent people. Not that he's a hero or anything, but the one time he thought he did he actually felt bad about it. Which is something Spike never did.

But whatever, I'm done. I just don't like being told my dislike is unjustified when feel that it is very justified.

 

[Shurik]

My actual favorite character was Anya.

Mine too.

 

[3D Master]

Hmmm, perhaps I don't remember that scene very well. I could have sworn that his attempted rape of Buffy wasn't played for laughs. Maybe I missed the point. I also seem to recall him being so disgusted with himself that he fled to find redemption (his soul.) I also recall at least on character never EVER forgiving him for his misdeeds.

Nope, not at all. At best he went to get his soul, not to get redemption, but to get Buffy, to get back in her panties even after he just attempted to rape her. It was really simple, Buffy does like Angel, she doesn't turn him away, Angel has a soul, so if he gets a soul, Buffy's pussy is his once again.

At worst, and really, that's the way the whole event actually played out; was he went to get his chip out so he could kill Buffy's friends, eliminating the ties that keep her in the world of light, so he can finish dragging her into the darkness and make her his fully - as in, break her into itsy bitsy pieces and own her broken mind, body, and broken soul.

Either way; getting Buffy is his only motivation.

 

[Rii]

Dexter doesn't kill innocent people. Not that he's a hero or anything, but the one time he thought he did he actually felt bad about it. Which is something Spike never did.

There's no particular reason why Spike should feel remorse for his actions as a soulless vampire, it wasn't him at the wheel. The vampire isn't a willing agent of evil, but a corrupted human; to be opposed certainly, but not hated.

Angel is wracked by guilt for his actions because he was more than a vampire, because his sadism went beyond anything observed in Spike or other vampires, because the worst things that Angelus did came not from the demon, but from Liam, the demon merely allowed his subconscious desires free reign. As he suggests to Buffy in "Amends", it's not the demon that's the problem, it's the man. That's why we see ensouled Angel skirt close to "the dark side" on several occasions whereas ensouled Spike has difficulty getting back into the fray at all.

Spike doesn't have that problem. He was merely a vampire doing what vampires do, re-ensoul the vampire and the agent who committed those actions is gone. It's not that Spike isn't capable of feeling remorse, indeed he confesses to Buffy in "Sleeper" that he "finally understands self-loathing", recall also his conversation with Angel at the end of "Damage"; he merely doesn't allow that remorse to define his life.

 

[3D Master]

Dexter doesn't kill innocent people. Not that he's a hero or anything, but the one time he thought he did he actually felt bad about it. Which is something Spike never did.

There's no particular reason why Spike should feel remorse for his actions as a soulless vampire, it wasn't him at the wheel. The vampire isn't a willing agent of evil, but a corrupted human; to be opposed certainly, but not hated.

Uh, no. Spike was most definitely at the wheel, and a vampire is NOT a corrupted human. A vampire is a human corpse animated by a demon. That demon is a "willing agent of evil"; more like true evil in that it cares about things only in terms of what it can do for him - and if the "greater evil" would come calling and demand something that is detrimental to the vampire, it'll happily destroy the greater evil to take its place, or give it the finger; but it is MOST DEFINITELY willingly evil.

The thing is, Spike with a soul, is no different than Spike without one, he acts no differently, and he's even taking credit for the things Spike without a soul did, or did not do. Result being; we can only assume that after the soul, Spike is still the same old Spike, soul or no soul.

Angel is wracked by guilt for his actions because he was more than a vampire, because his sadism went beyond anything observed in Spike or other vampires, because the worst things that Angel did came not from the demon, but from Liam, the demon merely allowed his subconscious desires free reign. As he suggests to Buffy in "Amends", it's not the demon that's the problem, it's the man. That's why we see ensouled Angel skirt close to "the dark side" on several occasions whereas ensouled Spike has difficulty getting back to into the fray at all.

Oh, please. The vampire is a demon, that is created from the remains of the human; it twists everything good into evil, and makes anything evil its own, and if it can makes it worse. That demon that is born however, is nothing human. There's nothing human in there, as the Judge aptly proved when it came to Angelus. And nothing it did has anything to do with the man that inhabited the corpse before apart from the result from its birth. Nothing Angelus did came from Liam, because Liam wasn't even there. There was only the demon, and nothing else.

The reason why Angel says to Buffy that the man is the problem, is because Angel the man isn't that good, and he's in control not a demon, and his actions and desires, not the demon's are what are now the problem. Similarly, he has a man, has performed quite some since throughout the century he's been like he is now, as well as from before he became a vampire.

Spike doesn't have that problem. He was merely a vampire doing what vampires do, re-ensoul the vampire and the agent who committed those actions is gone. It's not that Spike isn't capable of feeling remorse, indeed he confesses to Buffy in "Sleeper" that he "finally understands self-loathing", recall also his conversation with Angel at the end of "Damage"; he merely doesn't allow that remorse to define his life.

Ugh, Spike doesn't skirt close to the dark side, because he is fully in the dark side. His actions are nothing but his continuing attempts to get in Buffy's panties, and his "having difficulty getting into the fray" is simply him doing what he things Buffy wants him to be doing so he can back on that horse that threw him off. The moment Buffy tells him she needs the killer back, he's happily the killer again without any difficulty. He even goes to get the trophy jacket of his kill of a Slayer and puts it on; he even takes it back after the Slayer's son has taken it back from him; which is a level of sick, twisted, malicious and evil I don't even want to try and qualify it.

 

[Rii]

The thing is, Spike with a soul, is no different than Spike without one, he acts no differently...

You mean aside from not killing innocent people?

There's nothing human in there, as the Judge aptly proved when it came to Angelus.

A line that runs in stark contrast to the depiction of every vampire in the Buffyverse with a lifespan beyond a single fight scene.

And nothing it did has anything to do with the man that inhabited the corpse before apart from the result from its birth. Nothing Angelus did came from Liam, because Liam wasn't even there. There was only the demon, and nothing else.

That's right, Angelus first went after Liam's family, leaving his hated father till last, entirely at random.

His actions are nothing but his continuing attempts to get in Buffy's panties, and his "having difficulty getting into the fray" is simply him doing what he things Buffy wants him to be doing so he can back on that horse that threw him off. The moment Buffy tells him she needs the killer back, he's happily the killer again without any difficulty. He even goes to get the trophy jacket of his kill of a Slayer and puts it on; he even takes it back after the Slayer's son has taken it back from him; which is a level of sick, twisted, malicious and evil I don't even want to try and qualify it.

"I'd call that a radical interpretation of the text."

Well, not particularly radical, merely an example of confirmation bias.

 

[Hermiod]

^3D Master is right in one respect - Vampires as portrayed in Buffy the Vampire Slayer are walking corpses, reanimated by demons. They gain memories from the body's previous occupant and that may have an effect on the resulting Vampire's personality, but they are definitely not the same person.

 

[Rii]

^3D Master is right in one respect - Vampires as portrayed in Buffy the Vampire Slayer are walking corpses, reanimated by demons. They gain memories from the body's previous occupant and that may have an effect on the resulting Vampire's personality, but they are definitely not the same person.

Eh, semantics. I'm not going to engage with that aspect of things because I know from experience that 3D Master will happily drag it out across fifteen pages with increasingly irrelevant minutiae.

 

[Hermiod]

^3D Master is right in one respect - Vampires as portrayed in Buffy the Vampire Slayer are walking corpses, reanimated by demons. They gain memories from the body's previous occupant and that may have an effect on the resulting Vampire's personality, but they are definitely not the same person.

Eh, semantics. I'm not going to engage with that aspect of things because I know from experience that 3D Master will happily drag it out across fifteen pages with increasingly irrelevant minutiae.

I realise that, and I'm not posting in order to help him do that, I'm just stating something that was made clear on the show. It's what made it possible for Buffy and co to justify killing their former friends.

 

[Gojirob]

I would say Joyce, not in total, but as she was at the end of S2 and start of S3. Don't get me wrong. I know what she was going through, and what she was adjusting to. But her most infuriating traits were on display full force in that arc, and I feel she kind of enabled that ugly scene in the living room right before the zombies busted in. One thing that struck me as particularly bad : She told this woman Pat, who she'd only just met, half the story of her troubles. Now, she couldn't tell the other half, duh. But from the way Pat treated Buffy (not that Pat wasn't a pick-your-expletive), it seemed to me like this woman had heard a fairy tale about a wild child and a devoted, long-suffering mother.

Now, and I will roast back on anyone who doesn't listen to me say this : Buffy did wrong as well. She handled everything on the family/friends front wholly wrong. But while she deserved verbal bombing for her lack of consideration, that living room scene was verbal nuking. I'd heard that the return arc was supposed to be longer into S3, and DMP was a compression of sorts. Still, it was like the first time that a great new LP or CD skipped, after playing flawlessly or at least so good that the recording pops and clicks you did catch were easily overlooked.

Whenever I bring this up, I get the obvious rejoinder : Joyce was confused and in pain. Conceded in full. But so was Buffy, and Joyce was the adult. This is not even touching on the mental insitution retcon.

I'm gonna take Dark Willow next. The rampage itself was believable, and in keeping with someone hurt that badly. But part of me believes that after all was done, love for her and deep knowledge of her pain aside, the others let her have it over some of those choice comments. Maybe not with both barrels, but wow, did some of that go deep.

I'm split on Xander in Hell's Bells. The actual decision he made I support ; He'd seen Anya's blood spray at his own hands. The way he made it, though, stank. His family aside, he should have stood beside her and told everyone it was off. Also, his parents as reffed prior to HB were not the funny drunks we saw. Like Jenny Piccolo on Happy Days and the cook on MASH, some reffed characters should always remain offscreen. Depicted, they can only fail to be anything like what we imagined.

As to Andrew? Hey, Andrew? Prince Vegeta would like to speak to you about that comparison--IN THE NEXT DIMENSION!!!!!

 

[3D Master]

The thing is, Spike with a soul, is no different than Spike without one, he acts no differently...

You mean aside from not killing innocent people?

Because if he did, he wouldn't be getting in Buffy's panties. Nothing noble about it.

There's nothing human in there, as the Judge aptly proved when it came to Angelus.

A line that runs in stark contrast to the depiction of every vampire in the Buffyverse with a lifespan beyond a single fight scene.

Wrong, that's actually pretty much all vampires. In fact, Buffy even made it a point to show the potentials that; vampires, one moment innocent-looking corpse, next moment soulless, remorseless, killing machine.

Although with Angelus, it's even WORSE than with the rest of them. But still, whether he's exceptionally bad or not, doesn't matter, what matters is that you claimed it was the human in Angelus that made him bad, but we know there's nothing human in Angelus, therefor your claim is flatout wrong.

And nothing it did has anything to do with the man that inhabited the corpse before apart from the result from its birth. Nothing Angelus did came from Liam, because Liam wasn't even there. There was only the demon, and nothing else.

That's right, Angelus first went after Liam's family, leaving his hated father till last, entirely at random.

Exactly. Angelus killed Liam's family, even the sister Liam did love. Those are not the actions of a man, but of a demon. The soul is gone, the human is gone. If there was still something of Liam in there, Angelus would have spared his sister. There however is nothing of Liam left; all that's there, is a twisted everything good into evil, and everything bad made worse charicature of the man that Liam once was. A demon, and nothing else.

His actions are nothing but his continuing attempts to get in Buffy's panties, and his "having difficulty getting into the fray" is simply him doing what he things Buffy wants him to be doing so he can back on that horse that threw him off. The moment Buffy tells him she needs the killer back, he's happily the killer again without any difficulty. He even goes to get the trophy jacket of his kill of a Slayer and puts it on; he even takes it back after the Slayer's son has taken it back from him; which is a level of sick, twisted, malicious and evil I don't even want to try and qualify it.

"I'd call that a radical interpretation of the text."

Well, not particularly radical, merely an example of confirmation bias.

Not at all. That's that ridiculous concept that anyone somehow thinks I concsidered Soul!Spike bad and went to look for reasons, but it's always been the exact opposite. I considered Soul!Spike good at first, until I saw his actions throughout out S7, and realized he isn't at all.

And there's nothing radical about it, it's just watching his actions and listening to his words; and I'm not the only one who realized this. In fact, given what's on screen, considering Spikey-wikey sweet and nice, is actually the radical interpretation of the events on screen, and confirming bias.

 

[scorpius1701]

Spike was ridiculous after Season 3, possibly Season 4 but afterwards, he was a useless character. The real problem as I saw it was their refusal to just put a stake in the guy. Get it straight. Hes NOT helpless! Hes just trying to arrange your deaths from behind the scenes. He arranged the whole end of season 4 where they were almost killed by Adam. Early in Season 5, he kidnaps a head surgeon to get his chip out, upon which he immediately attacks Buffy. As soon as he thinks his chip has stopped working in season 6, he attacks an innocent woman. Last of all, most unforgiveably, he tries to rape Buffy. First, what is there to admire about this guy? The only reason he occasionally helps out is becasue he is so pathetic, he is just trying to get into Buffy's pants. Second, the Scoobies are fully aware that hes a bad guy with no soul who is just prevented from attacking them directly and they let him get away with scam after scam after scam. It weakened everyone else as characters because there is no way on earth that pre season 4 scoobies would ever ever allow him to get away with this stuff.

Also, Kennedy is pretty bad...

 

[Gojirob]

^3D Master is right in one respect - Vampires as portrayed in Buffy the Vampire Slayer are walking corpses, reanimated by demons. They gain memories from the body's previous occupant and that may have an effect on the resulting Vampire's personality, but they are definitely not the same person.

Eh, semantics. I'm not going to engage with that aspect of things because I know from experience that 3D Master will happily drag it out across fifteen pages with increasingly irrelevant minutiae.

ONLY fifteen pages? 3D Master must be mellowing out. Or not.

 

[3D Master]

Spike was ridiculous after Season 3, possibly Season 4 but afterwards, he was a useless character. The real problem as I saw it was their refusal to just put a stake in the guy. Get it straight. Hes NOT helpless! Hes just trying to arrange your deaths from behind the scenes. He arranged the whole end of season 4 where they were almost killed by Adam. Early in Season 5, he kidnaps a head surgeon to get his chip out, upon which he immediately attacks Buffy. As soon as he thinks his chip has stopped working in season 6, he attacks an innocent woman. Last of all, most unforgiveably, he tries to rape Buffy. First, what is there to admire about this guy? The only reason he occasionally helps out is becasue he is so pathetic, he is just trying to get into Buffy's pants. Second, the Scoobies are fully aware that hes a bad guy with no soul who is just prevented from attacking them directly and they let him get away with scam after scam after scam. It weakened everyone else as characters because there is no way on earth that pre season 4 scoobies would ever ever allow him to get away with this stuff.

That too!

 

[OdoWanKenobi]

So tell me, how does letting Buffy think he is dead help him get in her pants? When he came back to life he elected not to tell Buffy he was back. Yet he still continued helping Angel in his quest to "help the helpless." He even willingly took part in the assault on the Circle of the Black Thorne, that he very well knew could be the last thing he ever did. Yeah, that was all to get in Buffy's pants.