Lost 5x12: "Dead is Dead"

[Tom Hendricks]

I'm not sure about the 'Smoke Monster' being behind the "resurrection" of people. When the smoke monster comes out of its holes, Ben's torch goes out. When it goes back into its holes, his torch relights. However when Alex shows up, nothing. His torch stays on, so I'm gonna say no, the 'Monster' is not what the people are.

I also do not think the "people" on the plane are Widmores people. I think they are possibly Dharma people. If they were Widmores people, why would they not take out Ben when Ben says his name is Benjamin Linus?

 

[gh4chiefs]

This episode worked much better for me than the last several episodes (which I found mostly boring and I'm not happy we're going back to 77 next week.)

I really find myself wondering if John really is alive or if this is just another manifestion ala Christian, Claire, Alex, etc, etc. I mean Ben said it, "dead is dead."

And whether he's truly alive or not, he's clearly knows a lot and I'm thinking maybe he knows EVERYTHING and he's having a good time F'ing with Ben.

I mentioned some time ago in another thread that I'm not real thrilled with LOST's version of time travel. I'm not real thrilled about the apparent Egyptian link either, but it is what is. As long as Ben and Locke can remain as interesting as they were in this episode the rest of it doesn't really matter to me.

 

[Mr Awe]

Above average. Wow! That was a great one! Almost excellent! This season's episodes have all fallen in the above average categoried but meandered around in there from higher to lower. This one was right at the top.

Only a couple of things kept it from being excellent. Ben had a lot of emotional resonance with his daughter, killing John, the island, etc. This was played up extremely well. So, why not an excellent? I couldn't tell what was real versus what was Ben's manipulation of events. He was clearly playing both sides of various issues through out this episode, as is usual. But, it cut down on the emotional impact. Was he really going to the island to be judged or was a it a good excuse for Locke who then pushed him on it? Was it because of Alex or was that just a good excuse provided by Locke? Was Ben really terrified to see John walking around alive or did he expect it? He told both stories.

It's so hard to tell with Ben. If it was clear that we had finally cut down to the bone with him, easy excellent. But because we're not totally sure, it limits it to a very high above average.

I loved the ruins and look forward to them playing a larger role!

What's up with the passengers from the other plane? Taken over by some entity it appears.

I love seeing Ben boxed up. He hates not knowing, being led, etc. Now "Alex" really pushed him into a servant position. Ben's box is getting smaller and smaller. Less room for maneuvering. The look of horror on his face at that realization was priceless. He probably would rather be dead.

The events with Penelope and Desmond at the dock were a bit of a letdown but I'm glad they're ok.

Wow, seeing Ben as a Dad. Why did Charles want Rouseau and Alex dead? Did Ben really want to protect the daughter or did he have other motives? He's not a humanitarian normally.

In the temple with Alex, did anyone else get the vibe that when Ben said it was all his fault and Alex agreed, that they were talking about something other than just her death? There's more there and it has to do with Charles and Ben's disagreement over Alex.

Mr Awe

 

[exodus]

So lets get this straight, you flush an ancient toilet in order to summon the smoke monster?

That's the only part of the ep. that felt silly too me, the rest of it was awesome!!

BTW, what's up with the riddle?

"What lays in the shadow of the statue?"

 

[Mr Awe]

It was nice to see Ben make amends with Alex. I'm sure he was just glad to see her and didn't care that she pushed him against a wall and threatened him. Is it really her in some way though? Does she know what happened and why he said what he said before she got shot?

I'm not sure if I'd call that making amends! Alex told Ben, I know it's your fault and if you mess with Locke I'll kill you! And, it's not thoroughly clear if that was really her or the smoke monster.

That kind of ambiguity throughout the episode lessened the impact for me somewhat, knocking it down to an above average.

Mr Awe

 

[Mr Awe]

Yeah, but this time I started thinking seriously about whther or not the smoke monster simply poses as someone else or if the dead person is somehow "alive" through the smoke minster.

So what happens when we follow Locke through the rest of this season and next. Then in the series finale they come across a casket. And in this casket is the body of John Locke. They look up just in time to see the John Locke they have been following dissolve into a mist and float away.

What a mind game that would be.

They did something like that on BSG with less than stellar results. Althought, it would probably work better in the context of Lost.

Mr Awe

 

[Starbreaker]

So, the appearance of Alex really creeped me out. The way she said "Daddy" about made me wet myself for some reason.

 

[Mr Light]

My take is that Ben broke the rules to return to the Island for his own selfish purposes and didn't want to be judged, but Locke caught his hand in the cookie jar and he had to play his cover story through to the bitter end. This is why that horrible look comes on Ben when he has to go in the Vent and he tells Sun to tell Des he's sorry, because he sees that his lies all went for naught and now he's gonna die. ... What lies in the shadow of the Statue? A future ancient structure location to visit in Season Six! It's something only Widmore (or a Native) would know about, so it was used as a code phrase by Widmore's secret agents he put on 316 when he learned that the O(5) were all getting on the plane. You might wonder why Widmore didn't get on the plane himself but I'm sure he didn't want to risk dying in the crash. He wants his cannon fodder to make sure the way is safe and give him a safe path to the Island first.

 

[Arrqh]

I'm not sure about the 'Smoke Monster' being behind the "resurrection" of people. When the smoke monster comes out of its holes, Ben's torch goes out. When it goes back into its holes, his torch relights. However when Alex shows up, nothing. His torch stays on, so I'm gonna say no, the 'Monster' is not what the people are.

Or, the smoke monster knew that Ben would have a hard time seeing its manifestation of Alex if his torch wasn't lit. And so would the audience

 

[Gertch]

This would explain why it only appears as dead people (this would mean Claire is dead though).

I think she died in that house explosion. And daddy came along that night to tell her that indeed she was dead and had to leave her baby with the living.

My take is that Ben broke the rules to return to the Island for his own selfish purposes and didn't want to be judged, but Locke caught his hand in the cookie jar

Good catch. My thoughts exactly. The look on Ben's face was priceless.

 

[Hunter X]

As for him not remembering, I believe Alpert said only that he wouldn't remember the past day or something like that, not that he would forget the three years that LaFleur was in charge.

Here's the exact quote from the episode:

Richard: If I take him, he's not ever gonna be the same again.
Kate: What do you mean by that?
Richard: What I mean is that...he'll forget this ever happened and that his innocence will be gone. He will always be one of us.

It's vague enough to cover all sorts of time, so it's entirely possible the island gave him selective amnesia so he wouldn't remember our time-traveling heroes. Taken at its most literal, though, the statement seems to be that Ben will forget being shot and how that happened, not the previous three years of his life.

Though I think it's plausible that he has some recollection of Juliet at least, going by Harper's line that she looks just like someone else from Ben's past.

 

[Mistral]

I didn't read the whole thread so if someone pointed this out already-forgive me-but I was up tossing and turning with fever last night and having strange, Lost-related dreams(I had watched 3 episodes in a row off my DVR) and I caught something. Once again, Ben has gone off and done damage to others, almost as if he can't help himself.

When he went to kill Penny he called Charles, said he was going to kill her and said the name of her boat. In an earlier episode didn't Desmond say they were slipping into the mainland and would be gone before Charles even knew they were there? Now Charles can track Penny. Big OOOPS!

 

[Mr Light]

Widmore wants to protect Penny, though. So Ben telling him the name of their boat is only bad for Ben. It's probably a moot point anyway; I can only assume that their sailboat is going to wash up on the Island in a few episodes (no spoilers there).

 

[Mr Light]

Hmm. If Ben really didn't want to be judged, maybe when he drained the puddle in the Summoning Room, that ISN'T how you summon Cerberus! That would explain why it didn't actually appear, and then Locke said well let's go to the Temple then! So how do you actually summon it then? Piss in the puddle?

 

[chrisspringob]

Another thought I had....how did Widmore go back and forth between the Island and the outside world? I mean yes, there's the sub. But the sub belongs to Dharma, and the Others wouldn't have had it until the Purge. Widmore had to have been traveling back and forth well before the Purge, because that's the only way for the math on Penny's age to work out.

So the Others must have had some other means of leaving the Island before the Purge. Actually, same issue applies to Richard, re: his visiting Locke during his childhood.

 

[TheGodBen]

Excellent episode, best of the season so far. Lots of Ben and Locke, no Kate or Jack.

 

[Mistral]

Another thought I had....how did Widmore go back and forth between the Island and the outside world? I mean yes, there's the sub. But the sub belongs to Dharma, and the Others wouldn't have had it until the Purge. Widmore had to have been traveling back and forth well before the Purge, because that's the only way for the math on Penny's age to work out.

So the Others must have had some other means of leaving the Island before the Purge. Actually, same issue applies to Richard, re: his visiting Locke during his childhood.

Well, there's the whole "dropped in Tunisia" thing...

 

[Mr Light]

^^ That would mean moving the Island every time though. More likely he just sneaked off in a small boat to the nearest inhabited island. How does he find his way back? In the present Hawking (his wife on the Island) controls the Lighthouse which tells you how to find the Island. Coincidence?

 

[DarthPipes]

My take is that Ben broke the rules to return to the Island for his own selfish purposes and didn't want to be judged, but Locke caught his hand in the cookie jar and he had to play his cover story through to the bitter end. This is why that horrible look comes on Ben when he has to go in the Vent and he tells Sun to tell Des he's sorry, because he sees that his lies all went for naught and now he's gonna die. ... What lies in the shadow of the Statue? A future ancient structure location to visit in Season Six! It's something only Widmore (or a Native) would know about, so it was used as a code phrase by Widmore's secret agents he put on 316 when he learned that the O(5) were all getting on the plane. You might wonder why Widmore didn't get on the plane himself but I'm sure he didn't want to risk dying in the crash. He wants his cannon fodder to make sure the way is safe and give him a safe path to the Island first.

It was nice to see Locke being pro-active.

 

[Gertch]

Watching this again I don't think my quasi-theory of Locke being Smokey is true. He really is Locke but something is going on with him in regards to him knowing "things."

I like how Ben has shown twice the affect of growing up without a mother has had on him.