Why Didn't People Like Jadzia Dax?

[Saito S]

...while Sirtis and Farrell always seem to get a free pass.

Farrell gets the pass because she at least wore a regulation uniform, without the padded... uh... enhancements. Sirtis I'm not sure about but there has always been a vocal group that disliked her as well, me being part of it.

Ugh, that was one of my biggest pet peeves of TNG seasons 1-5. Troi should ALWAYS have been in a standard uniform, from day one, whenever she was on duty. That bunny suit she wore made no sense for her either as a Starfleet officer or in her role as a trained counselor. And IMO, she actually looked better from a purely superficial standpoint IN THE UNIFORM!
But anyway... Personally, I never minded the acting of Sirtis. Until season 6 of TNG (and not counting the abysmal "Man of the People") the writing for the character was pretty bad, more often than not. But I think she's a fine actress. And I certainly think Terry Farrell was fine as Dax, also. Speaking of what I think...

What I can't figure out is why Blalock and Ryan (Who was probably one of the two or three best main-cast actors in all of Trek.) always get ridiculed for just taking up space with their flopping big boobs and not adding anything performance or content wise, while Sirtis and Farrell always seem to get a free pass.

Here's a thought: different people have different opinions of the acting ability of these various actresses? Case in point: you seem to throw Ryan and Blalock in together as the ones who get unfairly slammed. Personally, I thought Ryan was one of the better actors on Voyager, but I found Blalock to be mediocre at best. And as I mentioned, I found Sirtis and Farrell to both be quite good as well. I agree that there are some loud voices that like to go around slamming certain actresses just because, without backing it up... but I've personally encountered just as many people who "slam" in reverse of what you're complaining about, as far as who is being slammed and who is being praised.

Jadzia never came off as promiscuous.

I strongly disagree with this. The reason I chose the word 'harlot' in my previous post was because I wanted to say it in the most polite way possible. The show is very clear that she is a loose woman in multiple different episodes.

There was once a discussion involving other anti-Jadzia DS9 fans, and pro-Jadzia fans. A pro-Jadzia fan accused an anti-Jadzia fan of hating her simply because he was 'jealous' of her; then he said something like: "Yes, I'm jealous, I want to be an intergalactic space whore!" (he said it even better than my paraphrase of him). It was one of the most poignant (and hilarious because its so true -that's just about all there is to Jadzia's character) comments about Jadzia I'd ever read.

Joe makes a good point about the word "harlot" (that was supposed to be more polite?),but there's a bigger issue here, I think. So Dax is "loose," "easy,", or worse yet "a space whore." Putting aside that that is most certainly not ALL there was to her character (you can still HATE the character, but to assert that that one aspect is all they ever explored with her is factually false), you're on dangerous ground here. Was it ok for Kirk or Riker to be so "popular with the ladies"? Or hell, Picard? Are they "ladies men" while Jadzia is a "slut?" That's a very old, very sexist viewpoint.
And frankly... I don't think Jadzia was a slut. Not even close. She was certainly carefree, but at no time did she demonstrate that she would sleep with anything that moves. That VAST majority of exposition regarding Jadzia's sexuality came from dialog, where she would go on to one of the other characters about how so and so is kinda cute or endearing or whatever. She was obviously very flirtatious, but that doesn't equate to being a slut, does it? Other than Worf (who, it's worth pointing out, she was quite faithful too) and that idiot in "Meridian" (I didn't like that ep, for what it's worth), name me one time where we were given enough information to conclude for sure that she slept with someone else? The dude with the spiny face in "Playing God" is a likely candidate, but so what? How do we know he isn't someone she's known on and off for years? I think the show makes it pretty clear that - while she is extremely flirtatious and forward, and might engage in sex without being in a committed relationship - she wouldn't just have a fling with someone she barely knew, which is where I draw the line for the term "space whore."

Quite frankly in a galaxy where Risa is the top holiday spot, I'm not too sure why it matters to be honest. It's the Kirk/Riker model just with a women. She's not breaking any laws or anything.

Hell Kira nearly matches her for on screen relationships!

Also a good point. Remember how, when Picard had the what's-it-called on Risa (that little statue thingy Riker asked him to get), these women kept coming on to him? It turned out that the statue thingy was a symbol of sexuality on Risa, and displaying one was the equivalent of saying "I want companionship." Anyone who would lump Jadzia in with those women needs to watch DS9 again.

 

[Michael]

^ Very well put, Saito S. I agree on all points. Thank you.

 

[Tulaberry whine]

Dax was certainly no more or less promiscuous than Bashir, and was certainly far more discrete and classy about it.

 

[DGCatAniSiri]

Jadzia may have been flirtatious with people, but that doesn't mean she's slept with anything that moves. And just because the character who gets the most action on a show is a women, that makes her a harlot/slut? Whereas people consider Kirk pratically a man-whore and he's patted on the back for his 'conquests'? Double standard much?

The twenty-fourth century is supposed to be less restrictive on sex than we are. I mean, in a twenty-first century society, would you really find rooms where you can have hot, heavy, and wild sex/orgies in a room a handful of feet away from a restaurant of a more 'respectible nature' (soundproofed rooms or not) or a family venue like the open air market of the Promenade? Yet here's Quark's, on the same block of space as the Replimat, the tailor's shop, and various other places. So Jadzia being more open to sex isn't a indication that she's promiscuous - given that Trill, whose society is based around carrying around the lives and memories of several people, male and female, likely believe in loving the person over the packaging, it's likely that she can find sex as just another way for people to connect.

 

[Praetorian]

The actress failed to impress me as did the character. So the writing is to blame as well.

Also I don't know if it's something about me or the way women are written in Star Trek, but I rarely found female characters interesting.
Troi and Crusher were the worse characters in TNG for me.
In DS9 too, all the men were more interesting than the women, although Kira wasn't bad.
However in Voy I really liked the female characters.. Only the Doc and possibly Tuvok were more interesting to me...though Janeway kinda depressed me with her erratic characterization at the end..

 

[Anthony Sabre]

Troi and Crusher were the worse characters in TNG for me.

I don't know. You take away Geordi's VISOR and what's the big deal?

 

[CaptainStoner]

The show is very clear that she is a loose woman in multiple different episodes.

Example? I think you are calling her "loose" because she has a libido, dates, even has sex from time to time. That's not being a whore, nor is it being promiscuous. I think you are judging the character based on current double standards. I don't recall any point in which Jadzia was just horny, and had sex with someone for the hell of it. I'm not really in a pro-Jadzia camp, I'm just don't remember her being THAT dishonorable. She chafed with Worf frequently, but were she a whore, he would never have been interested to that extent.

Dax may have seemed promiscuous by some of our modern standards, but I'd hardly say that's automatically a bad thing for the character, especially in context. It's not like we were shown her being promiscuous every week, either. It wasn't a defining characteristic, just an extension of the idea that Dax enjoyed life.

"Modern standards" is an interesting Pandora's Box (no pun intended). Again I think Jadzia had what might be called Celtic qualities. So did Ezri, once joined, though it didn't come as easily to her as it did Jadzia. Ezri going to rescue Worf could easily have been an ancient Celtic tale.

Here is an interesting, ancient quote, recorded by Dio Cassius, of a Celtic wife accused of promiscuity by a Roman matron.
"We fulfill the demands of nature in a much better way that do you Roman women," the Celtic lady retorted disdainfully. "For we consort openly with the best men, whereas you let yourselves be debauched in secret by the vilest."

 

[Anthony Sabre]

Didn't Worf and Jadzia have a debate, similar to this one, in an episode?

 

[Praetor]

Dax may have seemed promiscuous by some of our modern standards, but I'd hardly say that's automatically a bad thing for the character, especially in context. It's not like we were shown her being promiscuous every week, either. It wasn't a defining characteristic, just an extension of the idea that Dax enjoyed life.

"Modern standards" is an interesting Pandora's Box (no pun intended). Again I think Jadzia had what might be called Celtic qualities. So did Ezri, once joined, though it didn't come as easily to her as it did Jadzia. Ezri going to rescue Worf could easily have been an ancient Celtic tale.

Oh, I'd agree. And I did say 'some of our modern standards' not everyone.

Here is an interesting, ancient quote, recorded by Dio Cassius, of a Celtic wife accused of promiscuity by a Roman matron.
"We fulfill the demands of nature in a much better way that do you Roman women," the Celtic lady retorted disdainfully. "For we consort openly with the best men, whereas you let yourselves be debauched in secret by the vilest."

Ooh, that sounds perfectly appropriate.

Didn't Worf and Jadzia have a debate, similar to this one, in an episode?

I believe so, in the Risa episode, and later in 'You Are Cordially Invited' a bit, too.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Jadzia may have been flirtatious with people, but that doesn't mean she's slept with anything that moves. And just because the character who gets the most action on a show is a women, that makes her a harlot/slut? Whereas people consider Kirk pratically a man-whore and he's patted on the back for his 'conquests'? Double standard much?

I don't know about anybody else, but I am NOT impressed with Kirk, not at all. The womanizing is actually one of the things that turns me off from watching TOS. It's just sickening--and even worse because of the way society condoned and often still condones it.

 

[tomalak301]

You know reading this thread, I really have to wonder what show I've been watching. Maybe I have DVDs that say they are Deep Space Nine but really they aren't because the DVDs I have don't make Jadzia out the way some people in this thread have been describing her. Wow.

 

[Too Much Fun]

I'd just like to add that Kira was twice the slut Jadzia ever was with the way she consorted with those Bajoran dignitaries - her relationships with them were not convincingly depicted as having substance (especially the first one) - I always got the feeling watching them that both people were mostly in it for the sex. Don't forget that Jadzia also turned down a lot of people like Morn and Dr. Bashir, so she wasn't just willing to bed anyone who wanted her. "Meridian" is the only episode where she is stupidly impulsive with someone, but that episode was just a travesty which was horribly written and had her out of character.

I also appreciate how the actress was a lot more understated than a lot of Star Trek cast members. Other people may say it means she's bland, but on the contrary, I find it makes her more tolerable. I like Sirtis, but she was WAY over-the-top at times, and the same can be said about a lot of more popular actors. People talk about the rest of the cast being so superior than her, but then she never went embarassingly over-the-top like Avery Brooks in "Far Beyond the Stars" or Odo in any scene where he's grumpy (a lot of them).

 

[DGCatAniSiri]

Meridian? Nope. There's no episode of DS9 by that name. Sure you're not thinking of another show?

(This is my reaction whenever I hear the words 'Voyager' and 'Threshold' as well.)

 

[Too Much Fun]

Well-said.

 

[kitsune]

I am always surprised by the number of people on this board that say they don't like Jadzia and I always wonder why. She was one of my favorite DS9 characters (the other being Kira)...

Jadzia may not have been written as well as she could have been, but she's my favorite character. I like her because of all the characters we've seen, she was the most adventurous, curious, fun-loving, and tomboyish. She had something of a rennaissance spirit with her many diverse interests. I also love how she embraced Klingon culture. And it didn't hurt that Terry Farrell was among the best-looking actresses in Trek history. And her spots were cute.

 

[Thestral]

Add me to the list of those who liked Jadzia Dax (and Ezri too).

 

[Praetorian]

Troi and Crusher were the worse characters in TNG for me.

I don't know. You take away Geordi's VISOR and what's the big deal?

At least he has the Visor! =P Plus I really like Levar Burton...

 

[Lucy of Nine]

It's like Troi. Marina Sirtis was completely consistent with the TNG cast as an actor. But, she got a very difficult character, with some bad and questionable writing.
My 2 cents.

What do you mean 'questionable writing'??? I thought all her 'Captain, I can't sense what the alien is feeling, I'm getting nothing...' and 'I sense you are sad' comments were pure brilliance by the writers....

 

[JustKate]

Jadzia may have been flirtatious with people, but that doesn't mean she's slept with anything that moves. And just because the character who gets the most action on a show is a women, that makes her a harlot/slut? Whereas people consider Kirk pratically a man-whore and he's patted on the back for his 'conquests'? Double standard much?

I don't know about anybody else, but I am NOT impressed with Kirk, not at all. The womanizing is actually one of the things that turns me off from watching TOS. It's just sickening--and even worse because of the way society condoned and often still condones it.

Oh, I agree with you about Kirk. Some of his liaisons went way beyond simple womanizing with two consenting adults and on into "stupid" and "conduct unbecoming an officer." For example, that episide with the quasi-Roman society in which he (by implication) has sex with a slave girl sent into his room by one of the bad guys. I mean...she's a slave! She has to do whatever she's told to do, including having intimate relations whoever her master tells her to. And yet Kirk, and even more worryingly the Trek writers, apparently see no problem with this. What? Is there some misunderstanding here about the meaning of "two consenting adults"?

But we're supposed to be talking about Jadzia, aren't we? She ain't no Kirk, by a long shot, that's for sure, and I say "Good for her."

 

[Praetor]

I am always surprised by the number of people on this board that say they don't like Jadzia and I always wonder why. She was one of my favorite DS9 characters (the other being Kira)...

Jadzia may not have been written as well as she could have been, but she's my favorite character. I like her because of all the characters we've seen, she was the most adventurous, curious, fun-loving, and tomboyish. She had something of a rennaissance spirit with her many diverse interests. I also love how she embraced Klingon culture. And it didn't hurt that Terry Farrell was among the best-looking actresses in Trek history. And her spots were cute.

Well said.