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Poll: Bring Janeway back?

Should Janeway be brought back?


  • Total voters
    233
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Seems like we've rather exhausted the Janeway-Dead vs Janeway Alive debate now then...so what have we learned? Some people want her to stay dead, some people want her to come back and some people just don't give a monkeys...

Yes, and some people makes it personal if you cough in the wrong tune on a Friday morning or write a single sentence in which you disagree with them.

Anyway, I'm finished with this debate. Let them have their "Death Trek" and indulge in grief, sorrow and pain if they like it. Not to mention making it personal when someone disagrees with them.

I'll stick with the books from a time when Star Trek was funny, exciting and entertaining and I might come up with some stories myself where Janeway is still alive and Kes is restored from destruction.
 
Fantastic.

Back to a real conversation, then.

I'm curious about something. For me, my reaction to Janeway's death is dependent almost entirely on how Full Circle is written. What interests me about her character dying is the stories it creates among the remaining characters. The manner of her death matters very little to me, compared to the aftermath.

How true is this of everyone else; people who approve and people who disapprove alike? I've never found any death particularly compelling, merely the examination of it afterwards. I think all death is random and unjustified, but that's true in real life too, and that fact is worth considering. How important is it to you all for the death itself to be heroic/worthy/etc?
 
Fantastic.

Back to a real conversation, then.

I'm curious about something. For me, my reaction to Janeway's death is dependent almost entirely on how Full Circle is written. What interests me about her character dying is the stories it creates among the remaining characters. The manner of her death matters very little to me, compared to the aftermath.

How true is this of everyone else; people who approve and people who disapprove alike? I've never found any death particularly compelling, merely the examination of it afterwards. I think all death is random and unjustified, but that's true in real life too, and that fact is worth considering. How important is it to you all for the death itself to be heroic/worthy/etc?

an unheroic/unworthy death is often the most interesting to examine after the fact. I totally agree about Janeway's death being dependent on how it is ultimately dealt with in Full Circle. Observing how the lives of those around her are affected, makes the whole thing worth while. Her legacy is what's at stake...
Just a few more days:)
 
How true is this of everyone else; people who approve and people who disapprove alike? I've never found any death particularly compelling, merely the examination of it afterwards. I think all death is random and unjustified, but that's true in real life too, and that fact is worth considering. How important is it to you all for the death itself to be heroic/worthy/etc?

Well...I think a heroic character should have at least a somewhat heroic death. Col. Blake in M*A*S*H wasn't "heroic." Kirk was, so for me he needed to die doing what he loved to do, and he did. So that was OK.

Janeway is as well. So, although I'd rather not read about it at all, at least not quite so soon - I've been analyzing it (for some reason ;) ), and I've come to the conclusion that the reason is, I really wanted to find out more about her post-Voyager, and apparently I'm not going to get to do that any more - I'd rather she went out big. Opinions seem to differ as to whether she does so here. To put it mildly.
 
She's in Full Circle for something like 2 years of in-universe time, and Beyer has promised "one last great Janeway story", so I'm hoping there's more there because I, too, want to find out more about what her life as an Admiral was like.

That actually also adds to it, for me - the more I'm compelled by the character, the more I understand her story, the more I can appreciate other people's reactions after the fact. It's all about the emotional arcs, and part of my hope that Full Circle will add depth to her death is in her story across those two years of time.

Mine arrives in the mail tonight!
 
How important is it to you all for the death itself to be heroic/worthy/etc?


So long as the death itself doesn't negate the character as we've seen her all along, the manner really doesn't matter. Like you, I'm interested in the aftermath.

To give an example of a death that would negate a character as we've seen them: Supposedly Braga planned to kill off Seven in "Endgame." The plot was supposed to be that something made her come to the realization that she'd never really be human enough to exist among humans, so she sacrifices herself to save Voyager.

Now that's all lovely and noble and heroic, but it goes against what the character had been up to that point--and the whole point of her struggle.

I wouldn't have had a problem with Seven dying in the finale, but not in a manner that negated what we'd been watching for 4 years.
 
I am not a fan of character death at all. If I know about it ahead of time, I'll try to avoid it. This is one of those cases.

I was the one who brought up Henry Blake's death in MASH. It was definitely a great creative move on the part of the writers and really drove home the "war is hell" theme, in spite of it being a sitcom. Exploring some of the horrors of war is what made MASH a legendary show and not just another sitcom about doctors cracking silly jokes and fooling around with nurses. However, had I known he was going to die in that episode I wouldn't have watched it. I also stopped watching MASH after that and didn't see the other episodes until the re-runs.

I just don't like character death in my entertainment, especially when it's a character hat I've become emotionally attached to and never saw the death part coming. But that's simply my personal preference. There are many here that really don't mind it and actually love it if it adds to the story. It seems that the death of Janeway, while turning many of us away, has actually inspired others to read Full Circle. In the end it will just depend on the story as to whether her death was the right move or not.
 
Death is inevitable. It's life's one and only guarantee, the toll we must all pay at the end of our journey through the lands of the living. So if we all have to die, then we might as well make it a good one (if possible). How 'good' is to be defined will vary from person to person, of course, but since there's no avoiding our ultimate fate I've always thought it would be best to make our final act relevant, to turn the great tragedy into something worthwhile (again, where possible). Two people, having lived the same life--all other factors being equivalent, in other words--but die differently: one dies mowed down by some drunk-driving bozo at an intersection, the other in trying to rescue others from a building being consumed by a blaze. The latter death is obviously the better one, having been invested with meaning, rather than being stupid and random like the first. In the real world, this is all wishful thinking; most of the time, we have little control over the circumstances of our death, and obviously we can't all die heroically without everybody else essentially being in constant peril. But fiction allows one to control the uncontrollable, and the action-adventure genre comes with certain generic expectations--with good reason. A lot of those conventions exist because it's been discovered, through decades of trial-and-error, that they make for better stories, as the abominable failure that is Before Dishonor demonstrates. Subversion for subversion's sake is as meaningless as trying to be edgy for the sake of being edgy--but I'm wandering off on a tangeant. Since it is possible to have characters die well, I think characters should die well, particularly those most central to the narrative and whose existences have the most meaning already invested in them. Our deaths are the final chapter of our narratives, and if that death is dumb, stupid, or otherwise meaningless, then it'll ruin the tale altogether with an anti-climatic or thematically inappropriate ending. This is surely part of the reason why Janeway's death is so atrocious, skewered like a bit part in a slasher film; her death does not accord with her life, in terms of magnitude and relevance to the audience. The manner in which a death is executed, then, becomes all-critical.

I'm thinking, now, of a TV show I watch which killed off two characters in this week's episode. One received an awesome death scene, a heroic sacrifice that perfectly capped her story arc with a redemptive act--and it was actually a character I hadn't much cared for until that point, but her final act did much to endear her to me. That was a good death. The other wasn't as awesome and didn't particularly fit any character arc (I suspect the producers just didn't know what to do with the character), but it was touching. She established a genuine emotional connection with another character in her final moments, and that, and some good cinematography, lent her passing dignity and pathos. Both dealt with how those characters choose to confront their proximate mortality, and in choosing well, invested their deaths with meaning. Before Dishonor lacks these qualities altogether. Janeway's death had nothing to do with Janeway; she was an incidental victim. And where no choice can be made, nothing about the character can come through. Dying a victim--it's a bad death, unworthy of a principle character from a show that purports to be, at heart, humanist and optimistic.

The aftermath doesn't particularly interest me. It's anger and sadness--grief. Been there, done that, no urge to revisit it in any prolonged fashion. There are a number of reasons why grief doesn't interest me: one of which, as I mentioned, being because I find it hard to pull off in fiction without it either being dull or coming off as emotional blackmail, which is why I prefer my characters to do their grieving off-screen and return when they're ready to act again. Which brings me to a second point, which is that grief is a terrible motivation. Or, rather, grief is an extraordinary motivator, which makes it terrible motivation. People maddened by love or grief act in all sorts of uncharacteristic ways, we know; these things chisel away at our constructed selves and leave us a raw mass of instinct and emotion. One can then use grief to justify just about any action or direction from a character, regardless of precedent, which makes it a cheap and poor story device. Stories about people motivated by grief aren't really about those people choosing to take action, but rather being led about by their trauma, hostage to the emotions we all have in common--and as such, don't need to know more about. It tells me nothing about those characters, because I would no more recognize an action taken under the influence of grief as representative of who that person would choose to be when they are in control then I would a contract signed under duress as representative of their genuine intentions. Reason and will are the highest of human attributes, and what interests me in narratives is how those faculties are exercized. I've no burning desire to read stories about individuals who capacity to choose has been hijacked by trauma and are being victimized by their own emotions.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
 
Teya and Lynx,

Clearly you two have past history from some other board and even have apparently exchanged PMs of some sort. Regardless, this is not the place to air these old feelings/history. If the two of you can't get along I'd highly recommend utilizing the Ignore feature of this BBS.

More of this may result in warnings being issued.
 
I am not a fan of character death at all. If I know about it ahead of time, I'll try to avoid it. This is one of those cases.

I was the one who brought up Henry Blake's death in MASH. It was definitely a great creative move on the part of the writers and really drove home the "war is hell" theme, in spite of it being a sitcom. Exploring some of the horrors of war is what made MASH a legendary show and not just another sitcom about doctors cracking silly jokes and fooling around with nurses. However, had I known he was going to die in that episode I wouldn't have watched it. I also stopped watching MASH after that and didn't see the other episodes until the re-runs.

I just don't like character death in my entertainment, especially when it's a character hat I've become emotionally attached to and never saw the death part coming. But that's simply my personal preference. There are many here that really don't mind it and actually love it if it adds to the story. It seems that the death of Janeway, while turning many of us away, has actually inspired others to read Full Circle. In the end it will just depend on the story as to whether her death was the right move or not.

"I hate character death" says the person with the BSG avatar...

Um, have you been watching this last season at all?
 
The aftermath doesn't particularly interest me. It's anger and sadness--grief. Been there, done that, no urge to revisit it in any prolonged fashion. There are a number of reasons why grief doesn't interest me: one of which, as I mentioned, being because I find it hard to pull off in fiction without it either being dull or coming off as emotional blackmail, which is why I prefer my characters to do their grieving off-screen and return when they're ready to act again. Which brings me to a second point, which is that grief is a terrible motivation. Or, rather, grief is an extraordinary motivator, which makes it terrible motivation. People maddened by love or grief act in all sorts of uncharacteristic ways, we know; these things chisel away at our constructed selves and leave us a raw mass of instinct and emotion. One can then use grief to justify just about any action or direction from a character, regardless of precedent, which makes it a cheap and poor story device. Stories about people motivated by grief aren't really about those people choosing to take action, but rather being led about by their trauma, hostage to the emotions we all have in common--and as such, don't need to know more about. It tells me nothing about those characters, because I would no more recognize an action taken under the influence of grief as representative of who that person would choose to be when they are in control then I would a contract signed under duress as representative of their genuine intentions. Reason and will are the highest of human attributes, and what interests me in narratives is how those faculties are exercized. I've no burning desire to read stories about individuals who capacity to choose has been hijacked by trauma and are being victimized by their own emotions.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

Thanks so much for taking the time to write such an interesting post. I've seen you post similar thoughts about death before, but this is the first time I've read you posting something about the aftermath. I had never considered this before, and I do see where you're coming from.

But what I'm talking about is Shepherd Book's death in Serenity being the last push that convinced Mal he did believe in his actions. I'm talking about Tara's death pushing Willow into evil rage, paying off her 6-season long arc about magic as power. I'm talking about Dee's reaction to the revelation presented in BSG's season 4.0 finale (not yet a year ago; avoiding spoilers). I'm talking about Chricton's death in third season of Farscape changing Aeryn completely, just before she meets his double. I'm talking about the fascinating spiritual rebirth of Kirk written at the end of TWOK; not the reaction you'd expect from him at all.

Grief is just as much a constant of life as death itself, and is strong enough as an emotion that it's incredibly easy to abuse, or to use as an excuse for someone being out of character, as you mentioned. But I think that's a shitty reason for preferring not to read about it at all, because when it's used properly, it can open up human truths that are universal and resonant in a way no other event can.

And about your point about heroic death; the episode of Buffy in which Buffy's mother dies is an hour of straight grief from various characters, with no scene changes except at commercial breaks, no music, and absolutely no catharsis. The point of the episode is that it's random, that no one knows what to say, that it just sucks. There's no moral. There's no greater truth. 45 minutes of un-resolved pain. And I have to say, that episode may be primarily responsible for me being able to get over the death of a dear friend of mine towards the beginning of freshman year of college. It's the first time I'd ever seen art acknowledge that, in real life, we can't make every death heroic and meaningful. That mostly, it's just random and shitty. With the acknowledgement that there was no reason to be had and no moral to look for, I was able to get over it; I was able to stop asking "WHY HIM?!" over and over again. I honestly think giving every hero a hero's death is disingenuous. Doesn't matter how someone dies; they're still dead. True in fiction as much as in real life.
 
Teya and Lynx,

Clearly you two have past history from some other board and even have apparently exchanged PMs of some sort. Regardless, this is not the place to air these old feelings/history. If the two of you can't get along I'd highly recommend utilizing the Ignore feature of this BBS.

More of this may result in warnings being issued.

lunx should've been warned long ago for the ignorant arrogant rude tone he takes with people and particularly for the insulting way he addresses the writers.

saying 'i find you offensive' is peanuts next to the garbage constantly pouring from his keyboard.
 
Teya and Lynx,

Clearly you two have past history from some other board and even have apparently exchanged PMs of some sort. Regardless, this is not the place to air these old feelings/history. If the two of you can't get along I'd highly recommend utilizing the Ignore feature of this BBS.

More of this may result in warnings being issued.

lunx should've been warned long ago for the ignorant arrogant rude tone he takes with people and particularly for the insulting way he addresses the writers.

saying 'i find you offensive' is peanuts next to the garbage constantly pouring from his keyboard.

Oh please!

If I'm a sinner in this case, I'm not alone. There has actually been some not so nice comments to my posts which in some cases have been worse than what I might have come up with. I've done my best not to make anything personal and I have no personal conflict with anyone even if I strongly disagree with some of their opinions.

As for the writers and editors, OK I've been very critical in some posts but that is simply because I'm very dissapointed with the current development of the stories and when it comes to wasting main characters of the series.

It's all a result of shattered hope and dissapointment and in this case, I simply can't accept that Janeway was killed off. It's the "Fury" scenario repeated once again.

Besides that, my criticizm in this matter is no worse than the criticizm aimed at Christie Golden from some posters during the time she was in charge of the relaunch.

But it's not my intention to personally insult anyone here and if I have done that, I apologize.
 
So 77 people want Janeway back.

How many copies does the average Voyage novel sell?

78. :devil:

Sad.
ohboy.gif
 
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