A Semi-Hater Revisits Voyager
- Thread starter TheGodBen
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
BSG has a much bigger cast than any of the Trek shows, amd accomplished an insane amount of character development for almost all of them in a mere 70-some odd episodes.
Not to try to start a BSG/Voyager comparison argument but you're argument that ~150 episodes just isn't enough for 9 cast members is kind of proven wrong by the example of BSG.
BSG has a much bigger cast than any of the Trek shows, amd accomplished an insane amount of character development for almost all of them in a mere 70-some odd episodes.
Not to try to start a BSG/Voyager comparison argument but you're argument that ~150 episodes just isn't enough for 9 cast members is kind of proven wrong by the example of BSG.
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
DS9, running co-currently with Voyager for five of those seven years, managed to develop its almost all of its main cast (Jake recieving the least amount of focus as the series went on) as well as a number of recurring characters. We're not asking for equal distribution of development as much as ANY development - again I say that there are multiple characters on Voyager that feel unchanged from Cartaker to Endgame.
The Maquis were supposed to generate character conflicts, because the Maquis didn't just draw from ex-Starfleet but also people a lot more willing to pick up a gun than put it down. In fact, the character conflict was specifically said to be the reason for the Maquis background for these characters, so that they weren't as squeaky-clean, happy and chummy as the TNG crew was. So seeing them fall into that so quickly, becoming bosom buddies with Starfleet officers and adhering to the rules and regs of Starfleet is a bad sign. B'Elanna herself LEFT Starfleet Academy because of 'personality conflicts,' yet by the second season, she could have been just another Starfleet engineer.
You mention trading with various species. There's minor haggling on various planets, but never for major transactions like repairing the multiple deck explosion and the damage done to the ship in episodes like 'Deadlock' and 'The Killing Game.' Yes, it gets handwaved away by saying that time passed between episodes and they patched things together in that time, but that's just the thing - we HAVE to handwave it away. I don't think we'd be here complaining about the ship's appearance - a number of us are saying that the ship SHOULD have a patched together appearance because it WOULD be patched together, held together with the twenty-fourth century equivilants of duct tape and chewing gum and the factory fresh appearance it had in every episode's start was not realistic.
DS9, running co-currently with Voyager for five of those seven years, managed to develop its almost all of its main cast (Jake recieving the least amount of focus as the series went on) as well as a number of recurring characters. We're not asking for equal distribution of development as much as ANY development - again I say that there are multiple characters on Voyager that feel unchanged from Cartaker to Endgame.
The Maquis were supposed to generate character conflicts, because the Maquis didn't just draw from ex-Starfleet but also people a lot more willing to pick up a gun than put it down. In fact, the character conflict was specifically said to be the reason for the Maquis background for these characters, so that they weren't as squeaky-clean, happy and chummy as the TNG crew was. So seeing them fall into that so quickly, becoming bosom buddies with Starfleet officers and adhering to the rules and regs of Starfleet is a bad sign. B'Elanna herself LEFT Starfleet Academy because of 'personality conflicts,' yet by the second season, she could have been just another Starfleet engineer.
You mention trading with various species. There's minor haggling on various planets, but never for major transactions like repairing the multiple deck explosion and the damage done to the ship in episodes like 'Deadlock' and 'The Killing Game.' Yes, it gets handwaved away by saying that time passed between episodes and they patched things together in that time, but that's just the thing - we HAVE to handwave it away. I don't think we'd be here complaining about the ship's appearance - a number of us are saying that the ship SHOULD have a patched together appearance because it WOULD be patched together, held together with the twenty-fourth century equivilants of duct tape and chewing gum and the factory fresh appearance it had in every episode's start was not realistic.
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
^Well said.
The one thing I think you may have left out was the almost constant early mentioning of power rationing causing holodeck and replicator systems to also be rationed, yet later in the show they seemed to have no problem running the holodecks almost 24/7 and replicating loads of torpedoes and shuttles. Yet another cop-out.
^Well said.
The one thing I think you may have left out was the almost constant early mentioning of power rationing causing holodeck and replicator systems to also be rationed, yet later in the show they seemed to have no problem running the holodecks almost 24/7 and replicating loads of torpedoes and shuttles. Yet another cop-out.
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
I kind of liked "Persistence of Vision": We got a bit of a look into what makes the characters tick. With many VOY episodes, though, it had the potential to be so much more than it was.
Yeah, I've been reading this thread for quite some time- Even though he (rightfully) dissed it, I'm surprised GodBen rated Parturition as high as he did: I would've been hard-pressed to justify even a half of a star. A contrived plot (Gee, let's put Neelix and Paris together just for the sake of arguing over Kes) and a "Gonzo" rip-off puppet doesn't make for an episode, IMO.
I kind of liked "Persistence of Vision": We got a bit of a look into what makes the characters tick. With many VOY episodes, though, it had the potential to be so much more than it was.
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
My score for Parturition is unusually high, I agree. But over the last few episodes I have found myself not paying much attention during some scenes because the show was failing to hold my interest, and for some reason that didn't happen when I was watching Parturition. And I certainly agree that the premise was contrived, but the very fact that they had such a terrible premise yet still held my interest surprised me so much that I have to give them some kudos for it.
Besides, while Neelix was being a complete ass, the fight he had with Tom is genuinely something you wouldn't see on TNG without alien interference. It is wrapped up far too neatly in the end, but at least they tried to go there.
I'm going to jump on the agreement bandwagon.
My score for Parturition is unusually high, I agree. But over the last few episodes I have found myself not paying much attention during some scenes because the show was failing to hold my interest, and for some reason that didn't happen when I was watching Parturition. And I certainly agree that the premise was contrived, but the very fact that they had such a terrible premise yet still held my interest surprised me so much that I have to give them some kudos for it.
Besides, while Neelix was being a complete ass, the fight he had with Tom is genuinely something you wouldn't see on TNG without alien interference. It is wrapped up far too neatly in the end, but at least they tried to go there.
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
Good point, I never stopped to consider this.
It was wrapped up too neatly, but back then I was also glad the Neelix-Tom animosity was over, so my attitude was a forgiving one.
I also liked the alien species from Parturition, humanoid but sufficiently reptilian to appear alien. Not your typical Westmore 'rubber ridges' design.
Good point, I never stopped to consider this.
It was wrapped up too neatly, but back then I was also glad the Neelix-Tom animosity was over, so my attitude was a forgiving one.
I also liked the alien species from Parturition, humanoid but sufficiently reptilian to appear alien. Not your typical Westmore 'rubber ridges' design.
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
have to take your word for it. never saw BSG, never want to.
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
Tattoo (**½)
Pleasant. Puzzling. Preachy. Far from Perfect.
It took two generations for these alien guys to get to Earth, that's roughly 70 years, right? So they can travel at around warp 9. And in 45,000 years they developed the amazing technologies of weather control and cloaking. Technologies humans already have.
Did they spend that 45,000 years just sitting on their asses and taking peyote? They should have the technology to reach Earth in a matter of weeks by now and they could have given that tech to Voyager, but apparently not.
And just why are the rubber tree people aliens? Is this episode saying that there is a tribe of aliens living in a South American rain-forest right now?
There is some nice character moments for Chakotay which are pleasant to watch, and Neelix having a bird attempt to peck his eye out is always good for half a star, but there is a lot of strange stuff which doesn't make sense from a story context.
Lets just say that none of the characters on BSG are the same person at the end as they were in the beginning. The character arcs of people such as Baltar, Tigh and Gaeta were very well realised. The show was by no means perfect on a plot level, but its characters were very well taken care of.
Tattoo (**½)
Pleasant. Puzzling. Preachy. Far from Perfect.
It took two generations for these alien guys to get to Earth, that's roughly 70 years, right? So they can travel at around warp 9. And in 45,000 years they developed the amazing technologies of weather control and cloaking. Technologies humans already have.
Did they spend that 45,000 years just sitting on their asses and taking peyote? They should have the technology to reach Earth in a matter of weeks by now and they could have given that tech to Voyager, but apparently not.
And just why are the rubber tree people aliens? Is this episode saying that there is a tribe of aliens living in a South American rain-forest right now?
There is some nice character moments for Chakotay which are pleasant to watch, and Neelix having a bird attempt to peck his eye out is always good for half a star, but there is a lot of strange stuff which doesn't make sense from a story context.
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
Yeah, 'Tattoo' gets an 'A' for effort for me but I disliked the whole 'mystic Native American spirits from space' angle. (Indeed, the whole idea of ancient aliens visiting Earth and influencing our culture has almost become a cliche. Sometimes it feels like it's the only way sci-fi is comfortable in dealing with religion and spirituality.)
It felt like a cop-out way for them to continue to avoid picking a specific real-world tribe for Chakotay. It also seemed very convenient that he should run into them in the Delta Quadrant, but hey, it's television. The logic holes in the backstory you point out are quite puzzling. Still, like you say, good character moments for Chakotay, so it's well worth the rating you gave it.
Yeah, 'Tattoo' gets an 'A' for effort for me but I disliked the whole 'mystic Native American spirits from space' angle. (Indeed, the whole idea of ancient aliens visiting Earth and influencing our culture has almost become a cliche. Sometimes it feels like it's the only way sci-fi is comfortable in dealing with religion and spirituality.)
It felt like a cop-out way for them to continue to avoid picking a specific real-world tribe for Chakotay. It also seemed very convenient that he should run into them in the Delta Quadrant, but hey, it's television. The logic holes in the backstory you point out are quite puzzling. Still, like you say, good character moments for Chakotay, so it's well worth the rating you gave it.
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
I like "Parturition".
A warm,funny and entertaining episode with some really funny scenes, like the "spaghetti fight" between Tom and Neelix and the conversation in sickbay afterwards between Kes and The Doctor:
Kes: "Neelix and Tom Paris had a fight-over me!"
The Doctor: How delightful!
Kes: "On my homeworld it's so much simpler. You choose a mate for life. There's no distrust, no envy, no betrayal."
The Doctor: Your homeworld must have very dry literature.
I'll give it 4 points out of 5.
"Persistence Of Vision", now here we are talking quality, one of the gemstones among the Voyager episodes. Exciting and spooky from start to end.
I'll give it 5 points out of 5
"Tattoo" could have been a great episode if they had used it to give a good story about Chakotay's background. Instead they had to come up with that "Sky Spirit" crap which is downright insulting to the American Indians.
What they should have done was to skip the whole "Sky Spirit" thing and had Chakotay stranded on some planet which reminded him of his home and childhood. OK, they could have had some encounters with aliens but not that crap about aliens being ancestors to the Indians. Besides that, they could have concentrated on giving Chakotay a real background based on a real Indian tribe. However, some parts of Chakotay's background story are interesting and the subplot where Kes alters the program The Doctor have made with the simulated flu is excellent and actually saves this episode.
I'll give it 3 points out of 5
I like "Parturition".
A warm,funny and entertaining episode with some really funny scenes, like the "spaghetti fight" between Tom and Neelix and the conversation in sickbay afterwards between Kes and The Doctor:
Kes: "Neelix and Tom Paris had a fight-over me!"
The Doctor: How delightful!
Kes: "On my homeworld it's so much simpler. You choose a mate for life. There's no distrust, no envy, no betrayal."
The Doctor: Your homeworld must have very dry literature.
I'll give it 4 points out of 5.
"Persistence Of Vision", now here we are talking quality, one of the gemstones among the Voyager episodes. Exciting and spooky from start to end.
I'll give it 5 points out of 5
"Tattoo" could have been a great episode if they had used it to give a good story about Chakotay's background. Instead they had to come up with that "Sky Spirit" crap which is downright insulting to the American Indians.
What they should have done was to skip the whole "Sky Spirit" thing and had Chakotay stranded on some planet which reminded him of his home and childhood. OK, they could have had some encounters with aliens but not that crap about aliens being ancestors to the Indians. Besides that, they could have concentrated on giving Chakotay a real background based on a real Indian tribe. However, some parts of Chakotay's background story are interesting and the subplot where Kes alters the program The Doctor have made with the simulated flu is excellent and actually saves this episode.
I'll give it 3 points out of 5
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
Which is essentially why the contrived 'birth' situation and lame puppet don't bother me. Character moments.
A warm,funny and entertaining episode with some really funny scenes, like the "spaghetti fight" between Tom and Neelix and the conversation in sickbay afterwards between Kes and The Doctor:
Kes: "Neelix and Tom Paris had a fight-over me!"
The Doctor: How delightful!
Kes: "On my homeworld it's so much simpler. You choose a mate for life. There's no distrust, no envy, no betrayal."
The Doctor: Your homeworld must have very dry literature.
Which is essentially why the contrived 'birth' situation and lame puppet don't bother me. Character moments.
Really? IDIC, I guess. I just found it boring."Persistence Of Vision", now here we are talking quality, one of the gemstones among the Voyager episodes. Exciting and spooky from start to end.
I'll give it 5 points out of 5
That is a better idea and perhaps should have been combined with the premise of 'Initiations' to make a decent episode, sans Kazon.
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
Cold Fire (*½)
Talk about a waste of potential. The female Caretaker was set-up in the pilot episode and I just assumed that they intended to do something better with her. On the one hand you have a perfectly passable story about Kes and her new abilities brought about by meeting some powerful Ocampas. This is interesting enough to have an episode on this subject alone.
But the story about the female Caretaker is a complete waste of what should have been an important facet of the series, and if my memory serves correctly this is the last time we will ever see her. She should have been saved until the finale in order to bring the show full circle, at the very least she should have had a story arc built around her. She should not have been used like this.
She wants to destroy Voyager for killing the original Caretaker? Really? She comes aboard the ship in the form of a little girl with a big evil voice? Really?! Urgh. Bad bad bad!
Minus one full star for the evil little girl crap. Plus half a star for throwing Neelix across the room.
Cold Fire (*½)
Talk about a waste of potential. The female Caretaker was set-up in the pilot episode and I just assumed that they intended to do something better with her. On the one hand you have a perfectly passable story about Kes and her new abilities brought about by meeting some powerful Ocampas. This is interesting enough to have an episode on this subject alone.
But the story about the female Caretaker is a complete waste of what should have been an important facet of the series, and if my memory serves correctly this is the last time we will ever see her. She should have been saved until the finale in order to bring the show full circle, at the very least she should have had a story arc built around her. She should not have been used like this.
She wants to destroy Voyager for killing the original Caretaker? Really? She comes aboard the ship in the form of a little girl with a big evil voice? Really?! Urgh. Bad bad bad!
Minus one full star for the evil little girl crap. Plus half a star for throwing Neelix across the room.
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
Ta-ta-ta-ta (trumpet fanfare)! Here we have it, the best episode of Voyager: "Cold Fire"!
This one is a masterpiece! Exciting and spooky from beginning to end. I find the whole story brilliant. The Female Caretaker is finally found but she turns out to be not that friendly. We also have the Ocampa on the Array who turn out to be different from the Ocampa on the planet. We have Tanis, this master of evil trying to manipulate Kes who fortunately is strong enough to withstand his attempts in the long run.
Great episode! It's a pity that it wasn't followed up by some final appearance by the female Caretaker, most likely in the last episode (which would have been better than what "Endgame" gave us).
Anyway, "Cold Fire" is my favorite. I'll give it 5 points out of 5!
Ta-ta-ta-ta (trumpet fanfare)! Here we have it, the best episode of Voyager: "Cold Fire"!
This one is a masterpiece! Exciting and spooky from beginning to end. I find the whole story brilliant. The Female Caretaker is finally found but she turns out to be not that friendly. We also have the Ocampa on the Array who turn out to be different from the Ocampa on the planet. We have Tanis, this master of evil trying to manipulate Kes who fortunately is strong enough to withstand his attempts in the long run.
Great episode! It's a pity that it wasn't followed up by some final appearance by the female Caretaker, most likely in the last episode (which would have been better than what "Endgame" gave us).
Anyway, "Cold Fire" is my favorite. I'll give it 5 points out of 5!
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
Damn you all for reminding me that Parturition existed. I had successfully forgotten it. Whiner 1 and Whiner 2 rescue puppet. Puppet unaccountably does not kill Whiners (or self) in order to avoid fate worse than death - continuation of status quo living arrangements.
*shudders*
Damn you all for reminding me that Parturition existed. I had successfully forgotten it. Whiner 1 and Whiner 2 rescue puppet. Puppet unaccountably does not kill Whiners (or self) in order to avoid fate worse than death - continuation of status quo living arrangements.
*shudders*
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
YES this is what the Last 2 Episodes [Two Parter] should have BEEN about not Endgame (EndShame/EvenMoreShame)
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