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The Problem of Edith Keeler

I want to know what happened to Borg Earth from First Contact. Does that continue in another part of the multiverse? Maybe it could inspire some Terminator-style novels.

Star Trek: Borginator? Sounds way, way cool! However, they would probably have to be set in the past and would never get a happy end, since Data remarked after doing his scan, '... all Borg.' :borg:

As far as I see it, there probably was never true time travel as such in Star Trek, but merely jumping between existing and creating new alternate timelines (just imagine, how would you calculate the era you wanted to end up in when doing a slingshot around the sun? Is Star Trek's time travel nothing more than a hit-and-miss affair (with the exception of the Guardian of Forever, perhaps)?).
This would probably also explain discrepancies like Zephram Cochrane's looks in TOS and FC (perhaps they were two different persons in two different quantum realities?)...

You remember in Parallels, there's an alternate Will Riker who is in command of an Enterprise that is falling apart and who tries to stop the shuttle from closing the singularity.

Obviously, he doesn't inhabit FC's quantum reality, but what if people did abandon Earth. Instead of a human resistance on Earth, there could be a human diaspora. Their ultimate struggle could be to get Earth back.
 
You remember in Parallels, there's an alternate Will Riker who is in command of an Enterprise that is falling apart and who tries to stop the shuttle from closing the singularity.

Obviously, he doesn't inhabit FC's quantum reality, but what if people did abandon Earth. Instead of a human resistance on Earth, there could be a human diaspora. Their ultimate struggle could be to get Earth back.

You could do an entire parallel saga, starting with the Borg invasion in the 21st century and ending whenever you want it to end...
By the way, are you sure that the Parallels Will Riker you wrote about is not part of FC's quantum reality? Perhaps his human resistance started after a different ending of Best of both Worlds?
 
You remember in Parallels, there's an alternate Will Riker who is in command of an Enterprise that is falling apart and who tries to stop the shuttle from closing the singularity.

Obviously, he doesn't inhabit FC's quantum reality, but what if people did abandon Earth. Instead of a human resistance on Earth, there could be a human diaspora. Their ultimate struggle could be to get Earth back.

You could do an entire parallel saga, starting with the Borg invasion in the 21st century and ending whenever you want it to end...
By the way, are you sure that the Parallels Will Riker you wrote about is not part of FC's quantum reality? Perhaps his human resistance started after a different ending of Best of both Worlds?

Yeah I'm sure... because there wouldn't have been a Federation to construct an Enterprise-D.

I agree with your second idea. I think an alternate BOBW ending might be his origin, which would also explain Picard's absence on his ship.

I guess someone could do novels based on this alternate BOBW, but I think it would be more fun to ditch everything, start in the 21st century, and have humans escaping with Vulcans as the Borg take over.

I wonder if the Metrons or the Organians would intervene... or if such advanced races wouldn't care.
 
I guess someone could do novels based on this alternate BOBW, but I think it would be more fun to ditch everything, start in the 21st century, and have humans escaping with Vulcans as the Borg take over.

I wonder if the Metrons or the Organians would intervene... or if such advanced races wouldn't care.

Now THAT would open story-telling possibilities beyond our wildest expectations... but would it still remain Star Trek in essence?
However, we could deal with this storyline in one bigger novel in the style of Kim Stanley Robinson's The Years of Rice and Salt and then take on another entirely different timeline...
 
I guess someone could do novels based on this alternate BOBW, but I think it would be more fun to ditch everything, start in the 21st century, and have humans escaping with Vulcans as the Borg take over.

I wonder if the Metrons or the Organians would intervene... or if such advanced races wouldn't care.

Now THAT would open story-telling possibilities beyond our wildest expectations... but would it still remain Star Trek in essence?
However, we could deal with this storyline in one bigger novel in the style of Kim Stanley Robinson's The Years of Rice and Salt and then take on another entirely different timeline...

I haven't read that. Fascinating concept.

Yeah it certainly wouldn't be Star Trek. It would be inspired by Star Trek I suppose.
 
No Data's head, because in this timeline, there's no TNG.

They wanted a reboot, they've got one. Now they've gotta build their own toys to play with.
The act of saying a thing does not make it true, no matter how many times it's repeated.

The act of denying the truth of a thing does not make it false, mo matter how many times it's repeated.

It's an altered timeline used as a mechanism to reboot the franchise. Period. The possibility of seeing any NEW Trek on screen (big or small) that compllies with the original Rodenberrian universe is virtually ZERO at this point.

Back on topic:

There is no evidence one way or the other vis a vis the events of "City..." in this timeline. The portion of those events that happened in the PAST were unrecorded by history, save that Keeler died, so there would be nothing that would clue us in to their happening. The FUTURE portion of the events has not happened YET, if they are going to at all.
 
The possibility of seeing any NEW Trek on screen (big or small) that compllies with the original Rodenberrian universe is virtually ZERO at this point.

The 'Rodenberrian' universe quite often didn't 'comply' with itself.

The truth or falsity of that statement is not relevent to this discussion.

The simple fact is that any FUTURE Trek on the big or small screen is either going to follow the Adams-verse continuity or start a new one of it's own.

The Trek universe depicted in TOS (69)/TAS/TNG/DS9/VOY/ENT is for all practical purposes OVER on screen.
 
That's one way of looking at it. Could do with slightly less crying of "RAPE!" though..

For me, personally, Paramount has been flogging a dead horse in a changed continuity which felt nothing like Star Trek since partway through the first season of TNG.
 
That's one way of looking at it. Could do with slightly less crying of "RAPE!" though..

Agreed.

Maybe it's easier for me to accept a Trek reboot since I've been through all this with Galactica. Old School Galactica fan through and through. Was VERY vocal about my disapproval of all the changes, etc etc etc.

Watched "Razor" and wound up becoming a fan of the new show. It's not what I would have asked for if my opinion had been solicited. But judged on it's own merits, it's a good show.

From the standpoint of the Rodenberrian universe, this new Trek movie is a disaster. That much is obvious.

As a NEW Trek universe, however, I'm willing to give it a chance to impress...

For me, personally, Paramount has been flogging a dead horse in a changed continuity which felt nothing like Star Trek since partway through the first season of TNG.

Which GR intended to be a "quasi-reboot" of Trek to begin with.
 
No Data's head, because in this timeline, there's no TNG.

They wanted a reboot, they've got one. Now they've gotta build their own toys to play with.
The act of saying a thing does not make it true, no matter how many times it's repeated.

The act of denying the truth of a thing does not make it false, mo matter how many times it's repeated.
I denied nothing -- I'm in the "wait and see" portion of the audience, myself -- but we've been around that tree many times before and I know better than to ask him to back up his assertion. He won't do it.

It's an altered timeline used as a mechanism to reboot the franchise. Period. The possibility of seeing any NEW Trek on screen (big or small) that compllies with the original Rodenberrian universe is virtually ZERO at this point.
You, however, I'll ask: Source (reliable) for that assertion, please?

Back on topic:

...
Right you are. :lol:

Until I see any real reason to believe otherwise, I'll continue to operate as if most (if not all) of the original stuff (and, by extension, the overwhelming majority of modern Trek as well, including Data's head) still exists. Nothing I've seen so far gives any clear indication that what has been shown or said on-screen prior to this movie is going to be erased, cancelled or overwritten in any major way; any claims I've seen to the contrary have been unconvincing, to say the least.
 
It's an altered timeline used as a mechanism to reboot the franchise. Period. The possibility of seeing any NEW Trek on screen (big or small) that compllies with the original Rodenberrian universe is virtually ZERO at this point.
You, however, I'll ask: Source (reliable) for that assertion, please?

Simple observation, both of what Paramount SAID, and what it DID vis a vis the existing Trek organization. Paramount took the position (backed by numbers) that the existing franchise was no longer "a going concern".

The Trek "office" (in existence since the early 80s) was closed, the "brain trust" vis a vis Trek was let go, and the entire inventory of production materials was either sold or destroyed.

Rodenberrian trek is as dead as a Monty Python parrot.

Back on topic:

...
Right you are. :lol:

Until I see any real reason to believe otherwise, I'll continue to operate as if most (if not all) of the original stuff (and, by extension, the overwhelming majority of modern Trek as well, including Data's head) still exists. Nothing I've seen so far gives any clear indication that what has been shown or said on-screen prior to this movie is going to be erased, cancelled or overwritten in any major way; any claims I've seen to the contrary have been unconvincing, to say the least.

Entire command crew on board when Kirk was a CADET, including Checkov. Said crew are all of similar age

No Lt. Kirk at the Academy

No Gary Mitchell

No Capt Garrovick and the Farragut

No Finney and the Republic

Sorry, there is AMPLE evidence that this is a severely altered timeline. There's just no way around it. The very PREMISE of the movie demonstrates it.

Why not defend the movie on it's OWN merits, rather than engaging in a futile attempt to hammer it into a non-conforming hole in the "old" Trek univers?
 
we dont know for sure that by the time kirk is on enterprise he isnt a lt.

i mean do you have concrete proof he is still a cadet at that time.

and as i mentioned before the trek time line could have changed as far back as
city on the edge of forever/
just kirk and spock wondering around interacting with people could have caused changes.
bones being there in the end possibly caused the death of a person who may not have died otherwise.

what is interesing that in trek verse how you do time travel has to do with how much things change.

sling shot effect seems to have the effect of things blending in ,,, things go with how they would have been.

but time change with the guardian seems to be very fragile .
bones was a place in time were with one simple act he made a vast change in time.
 
Entire command crew on board when Kirk was a CADET
This is NOT known at present. I really wish people would stop asserting OPINIONS as "facts".
including Checkov
No violation of "canon" one way or another.
Said crew are all of similar age
Also NOT known, merely assumed.

No Lt. Kirk at the Academy
ASSUMED, not known. (and just because it isn't depicted on screen doesn't mean it didn't "happen" as off-screen backstory)

No Gary Mitchell
ASSUMED, not known. See above.

No Capt Garrovick and the Farragut
Again, see Mitchell and Lt. Kirk

No Finney and the Republic
More of the same.

Sorry, there is AMPLE evidence that this is a severely altered timeline. There's just no way around it. The very PREMISE of the movie demonstrates it.
What there is actually EVIDENCE of, rather than speculation and supposition of, is that a number of events in Kirk's life that were referred to in TOS and elsewhere do not appear to be part of the on-screen presentation. It does NOT automatically follow that all these things did not "happen" in the universe of the film (not that I care either way, but it remains speculation, not "fact" at this point).
Why not defend the movie on it's OWN merits, rather than engaging in a futile attempt to hammer it into a non-conforming hole in the "old" Trek univers?
Why not refrain from stating "facts" when they are merely opinions and interpretations. You may well be correct in each of your points, but you don't KNOW you are correct anymore than M'Sharak KNOWS (the difference being he isn't making claims of certainty in place of conjecture).
 
It's an altered timeline used as a mechanism to reboot the franchise. Period. The possibility of seeing any NEW Trek on screen (big or small) that compllies with the original Rodenberrian universe is virtually ZERO at this point.
You, however, I'll ask: Source (reliable) for that assertion, please?

Simple observation, both of what Paramount SAID, and what it DID vis a vis the existing Trek organization. Paramount took the position (backed by numbers) that the existing franchise was no longer "a going concern".

The Trek "office" (in existence since the early 80s) was closed, the "brain trust" vis a vis Trek was let go, and the entire inventory of production materials was either sold or destroyed.

Rodenberrian trek is as dead as a Monty Python parrot.
You'll admit, however, that it would be entirely possible to draw other, equally reasonable, conclusions from the details you have given here?

Back on topic:

...
Right you are. :lol:

Until I see any real reason to believe otherwise, I'll continue to operate as if most (if not all) of the original stuff (and, by extension, the overwhelming majority of modern Trek as well, including Data's head) still exists. Nothing I've seen so far gives any clear indication that what has been shown or said on-screen prior to this movie is going to be erased, cancelled or overwritten in any major way; any claims I've seen to the contrary have been unconvincing, to say the least.
Entire command crew on board when Kirk was a CADET, including Checkov. Said crew are all of similar age
You don't know that, and the age range of the actors involved in this movie, while admittedly not an exact match, is a lot closer to that of the actors in the Original Series than to being "of similar age".

See here (ages of the current cast are as of today; ages of the TOS cast are as of September 1966; this was done in a hurry and may contain errors, but any age will at most be off by only one year -- you're welcome to verify them yourself):
Comparative Cast Ages

Pine - 28, Shatner - 34

Quinto - 31, Nimoy - 35

Urban - 37, Kelley - 46

Pegg - 38, Doohan - 44

Saldana - 30, Nichols - 33

Yelchin - 20, Koenig - 30
Only Yelchin is not a very close match to the age range, but since Koenig was playing a lot younger, I don't see the problem.

No Lt. Kirk at the Academy
Where does it say that? Probably just not covered in the story this movie is telling.

No Gary Mitchell
So what? Not in this story.

No Capt Garrovick and the Farragut
So?

No Finney and the Republic
So?

Sorry, there is AMPLE evidence that this is a severely altered timeline. There's just no way around it. The very PREMISE of the movie demonstrates it.
None of that is evidence (ample or otherwise) of anything at all except that those people, ships, events don't figure directly in this story. For all we know, they could still be there, doing the same things we know from TOS that they do, but we'll simply be looking somewhere else while they do it. No big deal.

Why not defend the movie on it's OWN merits, rather than engaging in a futile attempt to hammer it into a non-conforming hole in the "old" Trek univers?
I haven't seen the movie yet. I'm not making claims that the movie causes such-and-such to no longer exist, or to continue to exist, because I haven't seen it yet. As to how well it fits into the old Trek universe -- or whether it fits at all -- well, we don't really know that, do we? It remains to be seen. And that's what I intend to do: I'll see it, and then -- and only then -- will I be in a position to decide what I think about the movie.

All of the noise from people like the good Captain about "this just proves that _______ don't know what _______ they're doing" or "this movie overwrites the existing canon and erases everything we knew about Trek" is just that: empty noise, based upon nothing of substance, and intended primarily to annoy. If you really want to prove something, then you go right ahead and do so, but don't wave a handful of details around and expect me to believe that they prove anything; you'll need to work a little harder than that.
 
All of the noise from people like the good Captain about "this just proves that _______ don't know what _______ they're doing" or "this movie overwrites the existing canon and erases everything we knew about Trek" is just that: empty noise, based upon nothing of substance, and intended primarily to annoy.

Absolutely Right™ :techman:
 
All of the noise from people like the good Captain about "this just proves that _______ don't know what _______ they're doing" or "this movie overwrites the existing canon and erases everything we knew about Trek" is just that: empty noise, based upon nothing of substance, and intended primarily to annoy.

With forty-five days to go, I'm glad that THIS opinion - and, as it seems, common sense in general - finally come out on top.
 
NuKirk and NuSpock and NuMcCoy don't necessarily do the NuThings they Need to do in order to kill Edith Keeler or Make her have her untimely meeting with the Good Humor Man in the 1930's?

They don't necessarily not do those things, either.

And as has already been pointed out, if McCoy never goes back in time at all, Keeler dies. So no problem. I can't even see where your reasoning starts from.

I think he means, on an emotional level, that TREKS best episode is now never going to happen...and I had never thought of that. Hmmmmm..does that mean PARAMOUNT can take Harlan to court and get all their money back since his episode never happened now?? WINK WINK

Rob
 
All of the noise from people like the good Captain about "this just proves that _______ don't know what _______ they're doing" or "this movie overwrites the existing canon and erases everything we knew about Trek" is just that: empty noise, based upon nothing of substance, and intended primarily to annoy. If you really want to prove something, then you go right ahead and do so, but don't wave a handful of details around and expect me to believe that they prove anything; you'll need to work a little harder than that.

Yes, but posts of that nature, particularly the "good" Captain's, are like jock itch; annoying if left untreated but you get used to it after awhile.

Did I compare something to fungus? Yeah, I did. Guess people will have to deal with it or whatever.
 
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