Poll: Bring Janeway back?

[Thrawn]

And any evidence I'm able to find shows that Before Dishonor and Full Circle are selling just fine; more than the books just before or after either of them. Admittedly, Amazon sales rankings are hardly a complete picture of anything, but it would at least indicate that they aren't selling horribly.

 

[Trent Roman]

That's the nature of story arcs.

No, story arcs are where there's an intent to continue the story.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[Therin of Andor]

No, story arcs are where there's an intent to continue the story.

Trent, you can continue convincing yourself that Janeway will never be mentioned ever again, but we've already been told that the crew's reaction to her death will continue to be developed. Therefore it is an arc. An unfinished arc, that won't be abandoned. CBS Licensing insisted on the ending of "Before Disnonor" to provide such a coda for possible future stories, and to give the ending some hope. And Voyager's story, at least, is continuing.

You can't tell me that no one will ever be tempted to do scenes set in the Q Continuum, with Janeway conversing with all the various Qs we know. Q books are popular. "Mosaic" was popular. Janeway was/is popular. There's no black ban on Janeway, she's just out of the main picture. At the moment.

When's the next VOY anniversary?

 

[Trent Roman]

The crew's reactions to Janeway's death are their own arcs, not Janeway's. Her arc came to an abrupt end in Before Dishonor, and the addition of a coda does nothing if it is supercilious and insincere. It's nice that you want to offer a sop and pat on the head to the Janeway fans, but it goes against the facts that we know: namely, not only is there no intent to continue on what seemed (to some) to be an incomplete story, but quite the opposite to your claims the intent at the time, and still as of recent interviews, is that the character is a dead as the dodo and will not be making a return. Anything beyond that is wild, ungrounded speculation. I hope that you're eventually proven correct, but there is no cause for such optimism at the moment and pretending there is seems rather disingenuous.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[PaulSimpson]

the character is a dead as the dodo and will not be making a return.

The same has been said about Data post-Nemesis, and yet here he is in the Countdown comics...

 

[Therin of Andor]

that the character is a dead as the dodo and will not be making a return. Anything beyond that is wild, ungrounded speculation.

And you, also, are wildly speculating. IIRC, when Margaret Clark made her singular comment on the issue, she intimated that Janeway was dead... for now.

If you choose to interpret that as never coming back, never ever, then that's your choice. Spock, Data, Batman, Superman, Jean Grey and Flash were also dead, and never coming back, never ever. Some of those have made several trips back from the dead.

 

[Trent Roman]

The same has been said about Data post-Nemesis, and yet here he is in the Countdown comics...

By whom? Different people made the decisions to kill Data, and different people then brought him back in the comic. (And there's zero guarantee that the book line, when it eventually gets to that point in time in-universe, will follow that lead.)

And you, also, are wildly speculating.

It's not speculation; it's current policy. Can it be reversed? Yes. Administrations change, or old ones change their mind. But there is no basis, lacking evidence to either, to say, as you have, that it will happen. That is only your belief. Dead Janeway is the current default, the status quo, and something has to change before anyone can start making assertions of a return and/or continuation of her story.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[Bob The Skutter]

I've skipped reading most of the thread, but I've voted No Way!
I wouldn't like to see it reversed just like that. I wouldn't really have a huge problem with it if there was a good story to go along with it, and it wasn't just a cheap stunt.
The fact that Janeway was killed has inspired me to pick up Full Circle, the first time I've bothered to buy a Voyager book, to see what the consequences are.

 

[Octavia]

Octavia, I'm sure you won't mind reading this -

Spoiler: Destiny

The Borg are no longer an entity of any kind; every last Borg drone has been freed, as of the end of Destiny. So at least that is no longer a complaint you could have about the new line.

Heheh. Thanks. Though it's unlikely to make a difference, I'm afraid. Too many years of Paramount/Pocket sucking on the Borg teat has turned them into Chinese water torture for me. I'm so sick to damn death of them that I don't even want to read the story where they all go away to Dropkick Land.

(Well. That's not entirely true. Were Pocket ever to have the good sense and/or good luck to get William Gibson to do a cyberpunk Borg story I'd be there like a shot. In one volume, though. My patience only goes so far. )

 

[rfmcdpei]

What does that have to do with anything?

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

The karmic debt had to be paid by both Janeways. The decision to use the transwarp hub to get back to Sol was made jointly by the Admiral and the Captain. The Admiral did die for her troubles and paid th karmic debt for her editing of the timeline.

Captain Janeway, though, had to pay a karmic debt of her own. Not only did she go along with Janeway's plan, her destruction of the Borg's transwarp network ensured that the Alpha and Beta Quadrants would be subjected to a genocidal assault sooner or later.

 

[rfmcdpei]

Now wouldn't that have been a challenge for the writers? To come up with something constructive to bring back Janeway on a space ship (most likely Voyager) again. I mean, Kirk was an admiral but there wer no problems to put him in command of the Enterprise and his old crew. Finding and creating a similar solution would have been a lot more challenging and constructive for the writers than killing off the character.

Why put Admiral Janeway in command of Voyager with the same old cast? Now that Voyager returned home, it's inevitable that the crew would start to drift apart, each heading in different directions as career and other opportunities attracted them. Tuvok did undercover work on Romulus and is now Titan's tactical officer, while Janeway was an influential admiral before her assimilation, and those are entirely plausible fates for these two characters.

In fact, the only thing this not so constructive move has done so far is angering a lot of people and created distrust and conflicts.

Not true. Many people, including myself, have said that Janeway's death is an interesting and sort-of-positive outcome, in keeping with the relaunch novels' embeddedness in a realistic universe where things can go wrong as well as right.

 

[Lynx]

Now wouldn't that have been a challenge for the writers? To come up with something constructive to bring back Janeway on a space ship (most likely Voyager) again. I mean, Kirk was an admiral but there wer no problems to put him in command of the Enterprise and his old crew. Finding and creating a similar solution would have been a lot more challenging and constructive for the writers than killing off the character.

Why put Admiral Janeway in command of Voyager with the same old cast? Now that Voyager returned home, it's inevitable that the crew would start to drift apart, each heading in different directions as career and other opportunities attracted them. Tuvok did undercover work on Romulus and is now Titan's tactical officer, while Janeway was an influential admiral before her assimilation, and those are entirely plausible fates for these two characters.

In fact, the only thing this not so constructive move has done so far is angering a lot of people and created distrust and conflicts.

Not true. Many people, including myself, have said that Janeway's death is an interesting and sort-of-positive outcome, in keeping with the relaunch novels' embeddedness in a realistic universe where things can go wrong as well as right.

Because one reason for my and many others to read the books is that we actually like "the same old cast".

Why do you think I prefer to re-read books like "The Black Shore" by Greg Cox, "Marooned" by Christie Golden and some other early Voyager books as well for the umphteenth time instead of buying the new books? Because of the possibility to read about the real Voyager crew.

And why do so many Voyager fans prefer to write their own fan-fiction with "the same old cast" instead of buying the new books. Because they like "the old cast".

And even with the "relaunch scenario", it would have been much more constructive to have Janeway alive and in command of the ship than to kill her off.

 

[JustKate]

And even with the "relaunch scenario", it would have been much more constructive to have Janeway alive and in command of the ship than to kill her off.

But...

Janeway is an admiral, right? So how could she command a ship? That's not what admirals do.

Mind you, I'm sorry Janeway was killed, too, but in asking for all the same characters on the same ship doing the same shtick, you've lost me. The reason is that you have two choices here: Either the crew is allowed change as time goes on, just as real-life people do, in which case they are bound to go their separate ways; or they are frozen in time.

You apparently want them frozen in time, Lynx - that's why you like the early books. I like the old characters, which is why I read the earlier books, but I don't want them frozen in time. I want them to change and grow. I'd like the newer books to tell me how they change and grow, and they aren't going to do that if they are required to keep everybody penned up on Voyager. At least I don't see how.

 

[Kira Nerys]

No way

 

[Lynx]

And even with the "relaunch scenario", it would have been much more constructive to have Janeway alive and in command of the ship than to kill her off.

But...

Janeway is an admiral, right? So how could she command a ship? That's not what admirals do.

Mind you, I'm sorry Janeway was killed, too, but in asking for all the same characters on the same ship doing the same shtick, you've lost me. The reason is that you have two choices here: Either the crew is allowed change as time goes on, just as real-life people do, in which case they are bound to go their separate ways; or they are frozen in time.

You apparently want them frozen in time, Lynx - that's why you like the early books. I like the old characters, which is why I read the earlier books, but I don't want them frozen in time. I want them to change and grow. I'd like the newer books to tell me how they change and grow, and they aren't going to do that if they are required to keep everybody penned up on Voyager. At least I don't see how.

Kirk was an admiral when he was in comand of the Enterprise in the movies.

And if this isn't OK, well find another way to bring back Janeway into action. Demote her for coughing in the wrong tune on a Friday morning or let her join a rebellion against a possible dictator who has seized power over the Federation, or anything better than the current "development".

Yes, I do prefer them "frozen in time" before what we do have in those books today because when we had the old crew in the Delta Quadrant, the stories were exciting and we did have that chemistry between the characters, something which will be missed in the future of the so-called "Voyager relaunch".

 

[JustKate]

^ I'm sorry - I seem to have annoyed you, Lynx, and I really didn't mean to. I was just trying to discover if you realized what having the same old cast back on Voyager would mean, and apparently you do.

I'm caught in the middle of this argument, and I expect I'm not alone. I do like the old characters, and I want to find out about them, and I don't want Janeway to be dead. So if they can find a way to bring her back that makes sense, I'm with you.

But I want the characters to grow. I mean, they grew during the show - I want to see how they turned out. And I won't get to see that if they stay exactly the same. So no, I don't agree with you that what we need is the same Voyager cast doing the same thing that they did for seven years. Sorry.

 

[JustKate]

Oh, and by the way, I thought putting Kirk in command even though he was an admiral was kind of a silly plot contrivance - it didn't really make sense, it was clearly done for one reason only, and that was to find a way to get him on the Enterprise for a movie. I thought it silly then, and I wouldn't want them to do anything as silly with Janeway.

 

[Lynx]

I'm sorry - I seem to have annoyed you, Lynx, and I really didn't mean to. I was just trying to discover if you realized what having the same old cast back on Voyager would mean, and apparently you do.

I'm caught in the middle of this argument, and I expect I'm not alone. I do like the old characters, and I want to find out about them, and I don't want Janeway to be dead. So if they can find a way to bring her back that makes sense, I'm with you.

But I want the characters to grow. I mean, they grew during the show - I want to see how they turned out. And I won't get to see that if they stay exactly the same. So no, I don't agree with you that what we need is the same Voyager cast doing the same thing that they did for seven years. Sorry.

No, you didn't annoy me at all. I do think we have the same opinion abouyt many things when it comes to Voyager.

I have nothing against character growth but I have my doubts about the current direction of the Voyager books.

And I must admit that I really miss the good, old days when we had the original crew in the Delta Quadrant.

 

[USS Intrepid]

Now wouldn't that have been a challenge for the writers? To come up with something constructive to bring back Janeway on a space ship (most likely Voyager) again. I mean, Kirk was an admiral but there wer no problems to put him in command of the Enterprise and his old crew. Finding and creating a similar solution would have been a lot more challenging and constructive for the writers than killing off the character.

It certainly wouldn't have been unreasonable to have Admiral Janeway commanding an exploration fleet, with Voyager as her flagship, IMO. Especially if she decided she was sick of sitting behind a desk, and wanted to get back out into space.

 

[Trent Roman]

Captain Janeway, though, had to pay a karmic debt of her own. Not only did she go along with Janeway's plan, her destruction of the Borg's transwarp network ensured that the Alpha and Beta Quadrants would be subjected to a genocidal assault sooner or later.

That makes no sense. Admiral Janeway broke laws and ethics, but Captain Janeway did nothing wrong. She, along with her senior staff, risked their lives for a chance to cripple the Borg and save untold numbers of sentients from their predations. That the book line then decided that this turns the Borg into cheap evil Snidely Whiplashes (as per Resistance and Before Dishonor) has nothing to do with Janeway's decision; it's a retroactive imposition, and a creative decision that could have gone any number of ways.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman