To Accept or Not to Accept

[3D Master]

No, it's changing everything that didn't need changing, puts in utterly ridiculous things like an Enterprise being built on the ground and all the consequences there of, and everything that did need changing, isn't changed at all.

Just curious, what are those things that you think did need changing that aren't being changed?

Time travel, AGAIN. Mustache twirling villain. Big doomsday weapon that destroys planets, that the heroes must defeat by ... fill in whatever cliche you want here. How many movies haven't we had a big doomsday weapon? How many times was a planet in danger from bad guys that need to be stopped.

Sjeez, come up with something new already.

 

[trevanian]

No, it's changing everything that didn't need changing, puts in utterly ridiculous things like an Enterprise being built on the ground and all the consequences there of, and everything that did need changing, isn't changed at all.

Just curious, what are those things that you think did need changing that aren't being changed?

Time travel, AGAIN. Mustache twirling villain. Big doomsday weapon that destroys planets, that the heroes must defeat by ... fill in whatever cliche you want here. How many movies haven't we had a big doomsday weapon? How many times was a planet in danger from bad guys that need to be stopped.

Sjeez, come up with something new already.

Yeah, but face it, whenever studios seem to want to launch something weird like Trek, they always go back to what they see as easy sells.

What got TMP out of development hell: Eisner hearing that IN THY IMAGE had the Earth being threatened. That's about as basic or kneejerk as you can get (even if the execution was far from conventional.) If this movie is being made to a template, it follows that it would include as many conventional aspects as possible, probably with lowest common denominator thinking informing those aspects and the template itself.

Not a whole lot of 150mil shows are doing dangerous or dangerously interesting things storywise. If they were, they'd be 15mil shows on HBO.

 

[tauntme]

STXI looks like something new to me.

 

[Jackson_Roykirk]

Time travel, AGAIN. Mustache twirling villain. Big doomsday weapon that destroys planets, that the heroes must defeat by ... fill in whatever cliche you want here. How many movies haven't we had a big doomsday weapon? How many times was a planet in danger from bad guys that need to be stopped.

Sjeez, come up with something new already.

The Countdown Comics series shows that Nero is much more than a mustache-twirling villain. Whether Nero's personality and his motivations translate into this film is yet to be seen.

As for coming up with something new...
I don't think Star Trek's method of story-telling is as stale and old as you make it out to be. I don't think those clichéd plots are the problem; its how those plots are executed -- and Star Trek has usually managed to execute those clichéd basic stories in an interesting manner. I don't see why this Star Trek film can't necessarily do the same thing. I suppose we will see.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

There are American citizens who don't accept the "Union" as the legitimate government of their several states. There are many addicts of all stripes - the vast majority, actually - who don't accept that their using is a problem for themselves and others. What those examples have in common with this one is simple denial of evident fact.

This movie is Star Trek now, and the only future that Trek has on the screen will proceed from this movie.

Someone said "you can have your own opinions, but not your own facts." Well, where Trek is concerned you can have your own opinions and preferences, but not your own "canon."

 

[Borgminister]

This Trek should take a chance, like The Watchmen!

 

[xortex]

This Trek should take a chance, like The Watchmen!

Sausages, anyone?

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

This Trek should take a chance, like The Watchmen!

Works for me.

That's not what they're doing, though, since the future commercial viability of the Franchise is the studio's chief concern.

 

[JoeZhang]

This Trek should take a chance, like The Watchmen!

Works for me.

That's not what they're doing, though, since the future commercial viability of the Franchise is the studio's chief concern.

Mr. Spock, your continued nudity is affecting the crew's performance and do you know who threw Mr.Scott throw a window?

It writes itself! and goes against nothing in cannnnnoon.

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

This Trek should take a chance, like The Watchmen!

Sausages, anyone?

Depends; is Spock cut or uncut?

 

[xortex]

This Trek should take a chance, like The Watchmen!

Sausages, anyone?

Depends; is Spock cut or uncut?

They're not for oral consumption.

 

[Augustus]

This Trek should take a chance, like The Watchmen!

Works for me.

That's not what they're doing, though, since the future commercial viability of the Franchise is the studio's chief concern.

Mr. Spock, your continued nudity is affecting the crew's performance and do you know who threw Mr.Scott throw a window?

It writes itself! and goes against nothing in cannnnnoon.

 

[Nerys Myk]

3D Master, How do you know the actual technology level of the ships in the 22nd Century?

So far, the only indication of technology being that primitive was basically the "Nuclear Rockets" (I think the term was) referenced in Balance of Terror.

AFAIK, that's actually all that was established in that realm.

What we know about the 22nd Century from the canon would barely fill a commercial break. Little if any of your ideas are from the series or the movies. Its just stuff you think would be cool.

So what Star Trek needs is to stop being Star Trek? Then why call it Star Trek? Not sure thats the best approach.

Nope.

Spock, Balance of Terror: "the Earth-Romulan conflict a century ago.
As you may recall, this conflict was fought,
by standards today,
with primitive atomic weapons
and in primitive space vessels
which allowed no quarter,
no captives,
nor was there even ship-to-ship visual communication."

Now, does that describe the NX-01? Hell no, the NX-01 could easily have captured Romulans; aka beamed them aboard, and locked them up. Further, now "allowing quarter", aka show mercy, not kill everyone, describes a ship that had no escape mechanisms, and opposing ships that could not disable ships without blowing them up. Does this describe the NX-01? Of course not; plenty of ways to escape it, plenty of ways of pinpoint accuracy with their newest toys phasers; oops I mean phase cannons; plenty of ways with our shields (oops I mean polarized hullplating) slowly dropping to 95%, 91%, 79%, to survive a battle.

The ships desribed by Spock are primitive hunks of junks.

Then there's our lovely 22nd century time traveler that got his hands on a future timeship and came to Picard; the things he took to be reverse-engineered were all things that Enterprise mostly already had, although slightly more primitive. So from him too, we know they didn't have these things.

And I absolutely laugh at people attempting to defend Enterprise, especially here. Enterprise was horrible, plain and simple; even friggin' fans of Enterprise have never claimed it was good, hell, of the first seasons they outright say it was bad.

Enterprise was a carbon copy of TNG and Voyager, and everyone knows it; exactly the the thing Star Trek didn't need; ANOTHER tired, exactly the same show. It's the very thing all the JJ Trek supporters claim is the reason JJ Trek Wars is a good thing.

But oh! Watch out if what Enterprise did, or did not do, is actually used as an example that the JJ could have stuck to continuity and produced an equally good and even better movie; oh, no, then Enterprise is the greatest show on Earth!

The key phrase is "by our standards." Primitive is a matter of perspective, especially when viewed through the lense of history. Todays hunk of junk was state of the art 100 years ago. Even items like the first cell phones look primitive by todays standards and that with the passage of a few decades. Spock statement is there in an attempt to reinforce a later scene. A scene that is a flaw in an other wise excellent episode. The episode pretty much stumbles over its self just to have a big aha!! moment. The lack of visual communications is poorly thought out for an SF show, given the state of visual communication in the 1960s, much less he hypothetical 2160s. Illogic in service of a plot point. Easily explained away by the Romulans love of secrecy though. The NX-01 was prototype and I doubt that every ship was an NX. When they added the MACOS they had to give some storage room. So space would seem to be at a minimum.

As for Dr, Rassmussen. Here's what he took from the E-D:

Anything there thats common tech on the NX-01? (Except for the knife of course)

A lot of fans liked and enjoyed ENT season one. So your broad generalization doesn't hold up. Lets not let the conclusions govern the facts. Its a bad methodology. And I like ENT season one because it was more like TOS!!! To me it was TOS v 2.0 not Voyager or TNG 2.0. Go figure.

 

[Captain Pike]

Tell me, have you ever read the novel A Flag Full of Stars ?

I have, and while it is pretty good (I've read the untampered-with version as well), the 'saucer getting fixed up on ground' aspect is just a gimmick there. In a sense it is a variation on the more impressive gimmick the same author used on his earlier book, when he brings the Enterprise down out of orbit to hover over Kirk's home on Centaurus.

Missing the point - In A Flag Full of Stars, author Brad Ferguson offers some valid reasons on exactly why the saucer-section is refitted within the benefit of Earth's atmosphere and gravity.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Missing the point - In A Flag Full of Stars, author Brad Ferguson offers some valid reasons on exactly why the saucer-section is refitted within the benefit of Earth's atmosphere and gravity.

Yep, missed the point for sure, if not accidentally.

Brad's a smart guy.

 

[urbandk]

Spock, Balance of Terror: "the Earth-Romulan conflict a century ago.
As you may recall, this conflict was fought,
by standards today,
with primitive atomic weapons
and in primitive space vessels
which allowed no quarter,
no captives,
nor was there even ship-to-ship visual communication."

No ship to ship visual communications seems like an artifact of 60s sci-fi imagination. I mean, we have teleconferencing now that is more sophisticated than what was shown on TOS. That description of the Earth-Romulan war was mainly a plot device and can be better interpreted as saying that no one ever successfully hailed each other rather than they didn't have view screens with which they could talk to each other.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Well, "Star Trek: Enterprise" superceded Spock's description of the Earth-Romulan conflict. When they show you one thing and then a character tells you another long after the fact (within the continuity) discard the recounted version.

Or remember that it's just a show and you really should relax.

 

[The Academic]

No ship to ship visual communications seems like an artifact of 60s sci-fi imagination. I mean, we have teleconferencing now that is more sophisticated than what was shown on TOS. That description of the Earth-Romulan war was mainly a plot device and can be better interpreted as saying that no one ever successfully hailed each other rather than they didn't have view screens with which they could talk to each other.

Which proves that the classic TOS-TNG-(et al.) timeline is actually part of a much more primitive parallel universe, while the ENT-nuTrek-(et al.) timeline is part of OUR timeline, the prime timeline... The thousand-dollar question is - when exactly was the point of divergence? My guess is September 26, 2001...

 

[Guartho]

What we know about the 22nd Century from the canon would barely fill a commercial break. Little if any of your ideas are from the series or the movies. Its just stuff you think would be cool.

Nope.

Spock, Balance of Terror: "the Earth-Romulan conflict a century ago.
As you may recall, this conflict was fought,
by standards today,
with primitive atomic weapons
and in primitive space vessels
which allowed no quarter,
no captives,
nor was there even ship-to-ship visual communication."

Did you realize that you just tried to refute another poster's claim that "What we know about the 22nd Century from the canon (excluding Ent) would barely fill a commercial break," by posting two sentences that would barely fill a commercial, let alone a whole commercial break. You posted "Nope," and then went on to reinforce the point you were saying "Nope" to.

 

[3D Master]

3D Master, How do you know the actual technology level of the ships in the 22nd Century?

So far, the only indication of technology being that primitive was basically the "Nuclear Rockets" (I think the term was) referenced in Balance of Terror.

AFAIK, that's actually all that was established in that realm.

What we know about the 22nd Century from the canon would barely fill a commercial break. Little if any of your ideas are from the series or the movies. Its just stuff you think would be cool.

So what Star Trek needs is to stop being Star Trek? Then why call it Star Trek? Not sure thats the best approach.

Nope.

Spock, Balance of Terror: "the Earth-Romulan conflict a century ago.
As you may recall, this conflict was fought,
by standards today,
with primitive atomic weapons
and in primitive space vessels
which allowed no quarter,
no captives,
nor was there even ship-to-ship visual communication."

Now, does that describe the NX-01? Hell no, the NX-01 could easily have captured Romulans; aka beamed them aboard, and locked them up. Further, now "allowing quarter", aka show mercy, not kill everyone, describes a ship that had no escape mechanisms, and opposing ships that could not disable ships without blowing them up. Does this describe the NX-01? Of course not; plenty of ways to escape it, plenty of ways of pinpoint accuracy with their newest toys phasers; oops I mean phase cannons; plenty of ways with our shields (oops I mean polarized hullplating) slowly dropping to 95%, 91%, 79%, to survive a battle.

The ships desribed by Spock are primitive hunks of junks.

Then there's our lovely 22nd century time traveler that got his hands on a future timeship and came to Picard; the things he took to be reverse-engineered were all things that Enterprise mostly already had, although slightly more primitive. So from him too, we know they didn't have these things.

And I absolutely laugh at people attempting to defend Enterprise, especially here. Enterprise was horrible, plain and simple; even friggin' fans of Enterprise have never claimed it was good, hell, of the first seasons they outright say it was bad.

Enterprise was a carbon copy of TNG and Voyager, and everyone knows it; exactly the the thing Star Trek didn't need; ANOTHER tired, exactly the same show. It's the very thing all the JJ Trek supporters claim is the reason JJ Trek Wars is a good thing.

But oh! Watch out if what Enterprise did, or did not do, is actually used as an example that the JJ could have stuck to continuity and produced an equally good and even better movie; oh, no, then Enterprise is the greatest show on Earth!

The key phrase is "by our standards." Primitive is a matter of perspective, especially when viewed through the lense of history.

Bullshit. The key phrases are the phrases that give us absolute information.

"That allowed no quarter." - The NX-01 easily allows for quarter.

"No captives." - The NX-01 easily allows for captives.

The NX-01's weapons became anti-matter, aka sub-atomic weapons, which is more than atomic aka nuclear weapons.

The NX-01 is therefor more advanced than the ships that should be flying around there. Over, finished, finito.

No other information is necessary.

Spock, Balance of Terror: "the Earth-Romulan conflict a century ago.
As you may recall, this conflict was fought,
by standards today,
with primitive atomic weapons
and in primitive space vessels
which allowed no quarter,
no captives,
nor was there even ship-to-ship visual communication."

No ship to ship visual communications seems like an artifact of 60s sci-fi imagination. I mean, we have teleconferencing now that is more sophisticated than what was shown on TOS. That description of the Earth-Romulan war was mainly a plot device and can be better interpreted as saying that no one ever successfully hailed each other rather than they didn't have view screens with which they could talk to each other.

Well, "Star Trek: Enterprise" superceded Spock's description of the Earth-Romulan conflict. When they show you one thing and then a character tells you another long after the fact (within the continuity) discard the recounted version.

Or remember that it's just a show and you really should relax.

Translation:

"Yay! For new Trek!

How horrible Enterprise and Voyager were. Just more of the same sweet sweet stuff.

Yay! For new Trek! Finally new stuff!"

--> If they had kept to continuity, Enterprise would have been an extremely different, darker, rougher show, that would be barely recognizable if at all as Star Trek.

"You're wrong! Enterprise was so good! It was sweet and nice, they denied canon, but not really, they just created as they went along! And that was the right way to go! And now there's the new Trek that's, just like that, just making it up as they go along, just as great as Enterprise that's also... more of the... Uh, no wait, that doesn't sound right... uhm, totally different and exci-... uhm, what was I saying again?"

What we know about the 22nd Century from the canon would barely fill a commercial break. Little if any of your ideas are from the series or the movies. Its just stuff you think would be cool.

Nope.

Spock, Balance of Terror: "the Earth-Romulan conflict a century ago.
As you may recall, this conflict was fought,
by standards today,
with primitive atomic weapons
and in primitive space vessels
which allowed no quarter,
no captives,
nor was there even ship-to-ship visual communication."

Did you realize that you just tried to refute another poster's claim that "What we know about the 22nd Century from the canon (excluding Ent) would barely fill a commercial break," by posting two sentences that would barely fill a commercial, let alone a whole commercial break. You posted "Nope," and then went on to reinforce the point you were saying "Nope" to.

Except for that annoying fact that that was only one of the things I posted about the 22nd century, but it seems everyone had ADHD now.

Also how much we know was never the point, but you know, comprehensive reading is difficult, eh?

The point was, what we know, and whether it is contradicted.