WARNING: All artists

[Vance]

And you both still completely and totally miss the point.

S'kai, what you're suggesting is a crime. It's called extortion. And there's no way in hell that Paramount/CBS is going to go to bat for someone that's threatening other fans for their fan works under such a situation.

Pleidas, there's a single key point that you're utterly missing. You don't own the rights to the work, and are therefore not legally the injured party. It's a derivative work, and the actual 'party' that could sue would be Paramount/CBS. And, I'll be honest with you, I don't see how they're damaged here. A guy selling his hand-made ship collection? Oh, dear God, no! How will Paramount survive?!

This is a ludicrous and stupid proposition all around, and you guys should be ashamed of yourselves. I'm certainly ashamed of you.

Oh, and if you really want to pursue this, the gentleman you want to speak to at Paramount is Micheal Bartok. His office can be reached through Paramount's main office number. Be sure to give him all the details about how this mean internet man stole your Star Trek designs. Just do me a favor and record the conversation, 'cause I would love to hear it.

 

[Clawhammer]

Vance: This guy has both fan and official stuff for sale, and that is the key difference, he sells where fans just post their work and in general have fun, maybe even inspire to improve by looking at other peoples work. (Grandeur anyone? ) It's a thin line between fun and commercial exploitation and this guy/comapny is walking it.

I see a lot of designs and pictures that are copyrighted by Paramount or CBS as well as Lucas Arts and some aircraft companies. I'm 99% percent sure the guy has never asked their permission, because if you would be able to pay the licenses the last thing you would use to recreate them is frigging WOOD! (labour intensive)

Because of my work for S&S/Paramount/CBS I should be able to contact some people there and I might after I completely checked out this ebay store and website. However the entire shop is Asian based so I bet there is zip we can do about it. Some Asian countries are known for their absence of copyright protection. At least the parties involved would be updated on the situation, which is better then leaving them in the dark.

Let us (the fans) do what we should do: create artwork inspired by scifi series and let's evolve in skill and thinking. There is only 1 criminal activity here and that is a guy who steals designs for his own benefit. I might add that I'm not interested in further debate, because the entire issue has raised my blood pressure pretty high already.Ty

 

[Vance]

I never said he wasn't infringing. I'm saying that it's pretty frackin' stupid of fans who are also engaged in stealing IP from Paramount to go after him. And, again, Clawhammer it doesn't matter one fucking whit if someone's asking for money. Infringement is infringement, period, and has nothing to do with the amount of money being charged.

I gave you guys the guy to contact. Seriously, call him, tell him of your exact complaint, 'cause I would really LOVE to hear it.

 

[Shaw]

So are we going after everyone here?

I'm just wondering if you think that people who make Trek based kits, parts or decals and sell them are also under this no profit ban? How about those who make prop replicas? How about replicas of anything at all?

Are you guys basically saying that unless there is some CBS/Paramount stamp of approval on this stuff that no one can sell anything?

Interesting. Draconian, but interesting.

This could be a sad day for all of us... seeing as most of the best Trek stuff out there for the last 40 years has been non-licensed items (and a majority of the worst has been the licensed stuff).

 

[ancient]

But it works both ways. The guy isn't selling other people's art directly, nor does he seem to be intending to. Quickly declaring that his life should be ruined because he's doing fan projects of fan projects is just petty and utterly rediculous.

Ok, I'm sorry sir, but what the fuck is going on with you here? Yours was the first and only post that was the slightest bit angry. I mean, where the hell are you quoting this from?!

declaring that his life should be ruined

The hell? Who said that?! You need to take a little time out and then read the thread.

Have any of you guys thought to just email him and ask for 'due credit'? Or did you quickly resort to a hissy-fit instead?

You are the only one here throwing a hissy fit. Are you that guy? Because from the tone of your posts I'd think you were taking this a wee bit personally, no?

And secondly, one shouldn't have to ask someone to un-chop their name off their art in the first place. We're all fans and I'm fine if we all share and share alike, but a little mutual respect would be nice. Can't we all just get along and all that.

 

[Vance]

Ok, I'm sorry sir, but what the fuck is going on with you here? Yours was the first and only post that was the slightest bit angry. I mean, where the hell are you quoting this from?!

Well, it seems that one of us didn't actually read the thread, and that one of us is actually you. What else would you call it when you threaten to go to the lawyers and sue or even arrest him?

And secondly, one shouldn't have to ask someone to un-chop their name off their art in the first place. We're all fans and I'm fine if we all share and share alike, but a little mutual respect would be nice. Can't we all just get along and all that.

I just don't see where people who are lifting the IP of Paramount can claim the moral highroad on this issue, while making threats and such... I did caveat, could be the guy's a dick, but I don't see what he's doing that's so terrible in the fandom... what happened to just trying to talk to the guy without going all internet-lawyer on his ass?

 

[Ptrope]

Okay ... Vance and ancient especially, but this goes to all ...

Let's keep this civil. It's a legitimate question, in a legitimately gray area. No need to get snippy nor defensive - it is what it is.

FWIW, regardless of whether the ships are 'inspired by' Trek's style, they are still wholly copyrighted to their creators; of course, we can't claim those ships, designs and names that were actually created by Trek's creators or license-holders, but anyone who creates an original ship design, one which doesn't use an existing design under a new name, is entitled to copyright protection of it, just like the 'big boys.' And in the same way that we can't sell models of Paramount's designs without a license, neither can someone sell models of our original designs without one. It's not likely you can stop them practically, but legally, you're entitled.
Just an FYI.

 

[Vance]

The real problem is, PTrope, is that a lot of these guys don't understand the nature of 'derivative work', and just how original a work has to be before it's no longer derivative. And, of course, the moment you attach the work to the 'parent' in a more substantial way (like, say, calling it a (Federation Starship' where you have it listed), the less claim you actually have.

So when any fan goes crazy on the ownership question (to the point, as I said, of threatening to ruin a guy's life over it, with arrest, lawsuits, etc), I think it should serve as a reminder that they're upset that someone else is pissing in the neighbor's pool that they've already pissed in.

The guy's contact email is on the ebay auctions, so why didn't occur to anyone to just contact him and say "Hey, throw my name in there somewhere, Goomba!" rather than "Let's smack talk about killing his dog on TrekBBS and anywhere else we can post!"

 

[Garrovick]

Good Luck with copy right laws in the RP from the U.S.

 

[Vance]

Good Luck with copy right laws in the RP from the U.S.

Well, considering they're concerned about the designs, rather than a specific piece of art, it's trademark law anyway - and that'll be even more fun to watch.

 

[Clawhammer]

So are we going after everyone here?

I recovered!

Shaw you do have a point, that should never be the intention. I got a bit heated up there because I had the same issue in the past. In 2004 some Russian site grabbed a truck image of my site to sell it as a mobile phone wallpaper. I gave that truck a lot of attention, and I had over 60 hours in it. They just sell that "dedication" for $0,25. It's hard to describe the feeling one has then, you have to experience it.

I need to think about this a lot more. I was suprised to see the concept image of the Aventine in a Star Trek magazine. It did not upset me because it didn't felt wrong. For me the same goes for the small companies that create rare models/props/decals/special detailed parts, that doesnt feel wrong to me as well. Perhaps some judgements can only be made by heart?

 

[BorgMan]

CH, I was mad at the guy because he didn't elt me know. As has been said, if someone approaches you and says *hey, I can do this and that with it, would that be ok with you?* it's something entirely different, as would it be if Paramount came around and would use the design. They own the copyright, the can do what they want, although I'd appreciate it if they'd credit me for it (duh). But as I said, this feels wrong because he deliberately cut out several identifying markers. Vance, as I said, why should I ask him to "pretty please credit me" if he proceeded with cutting out the identifying markers?

 

[Vance]

Because there's a strong possibility that he didn't mean a single thing with the omission and never thought past 'hey, it's a cool ship I can make'. He may have even thought it was a Paramount ship to begin with - you simply do not know, but you immediately equate him with someone who killed your dog.

Besides, part of establishing your rights is to establish them. If you're not willing to man up enough to say 'hey, this is mine' (well, about 40 percent mine) to the guy, then you're just whining and hoping someone else will come down on him for you.

 

[BolianAuthor]

"Let's smack talk about killing his dog on TrekBBS and anywhere else we can post!"

Given where in the world he's in, he probably already ate his dog.

 

[Cary L. Brown]

Ultimately, none of us have much of a legal leg to stand on if we're playing in PPC's legal sandbox (as we all are). PPC is letting us play, and we can't complain if someone else plays with our stuff.

But...

What IS problematic is that this guy is selling these works (almost certainly, without paying royalties to the people who really do own the IP).

Here's the basic situation.

One... PPC can take this guy to court and order a "cease and desist" and so forth.


Two... anyone who created unique art can require that he "cease and desist" attempting to profit from work which isn't his, and to cease and desist claiming credit for your work. But you'll have to take it to court in his own jurisdiction... and if he's where I think he is, you're not going to have much luck. A big legal entity like PPC could do this, but with the quantities he's going to be making, it seems unlikely.

Look... just think of how many non-licensed items you may have (garage kits, fanzines, web-board stories, bootleg videos, etc). All of these literally are taking money out of the pockets of the real IP owners. But because they WANT us to be able to share and enjoy and so forth (it's great free advertising to boot!), they no longer crack down on this stuff (they did for a while, though).

Your best bet is to call the guy (or email him) and explain it. As likely as not, he'll agree to credit you, and who knows, perhaps even send you a copy! (I'm assuming that they're using downloaded 3D files and using them in a milling machine to make the parts... a little sandpaper and some paint and voila!)

That's what I'd insist on... credit for the design I'd done (including all text and imagery) and a free copy for my own desk. As for the rest, well... be flattered he likes your work.

 

[BorgMan]

It will never be as good as the original file because that's the problem: he doesn't have a 3D model of it, simply because there is no one on this world who has the model, except for me...

 

[ancient]

I never see this sort of fan stuff in legal terms since the legal depatments involved have shown a complete lack of interest in this sort of fan thing. Imo the fan artists just need to cooperate and not hijack eachother's work. That's just plain rude, end of story.

The only place I could see legal crap getting involved is when fans recreate something directly. Like the TOS enterprise. But that never seems to happen.

Knock on wood....

 

[BolianAuthor]

Well, like it or not, he WILL have a physical model of it, if he has the orthos. All he has to do, is work from those. Even if the orthos he has are incomplete, he will still be able to make a physical model out of it.

 

[Arkady]

I suppose since none of my work is up there (the beauty of being a lowly freehanded sketcher I suppose) I don't have a stake in this.

While it would suck if he (or anyone else for that matter) used a trek design that I sketched out without my permission there is just realistically very little I could do about it except perhaps ask him either for a credit or for a copy, or both. By the same token I would be more concerned about him making sales of Paramount official trek designs without their knowledge, because CBS and Paramount have been very gracious in letting fans play around in their sandbox with art, fan film productions and so forth. I'd consider a report to them about it if for no other reason than to neutralize a possible threat to the rest of the fans because one person is playing with fire and making a profit - just as I would if comeone from the fan film community was hawking DVDs on their website without permission and so forth.

Just my .02

Although - he does do some awesome work, the WWII aircraft and jet models are very tempting,,,

 

[Shaw]

And in the same way that we can't sell models of Paramount's designs without a license, neither can someone sell models of our original designs without one. It's not likely you can stop them practically, but legally, you're entitled.

Again, how far do we go on this?

We have members who have drawn up plans of Trek ships and sold them (as either books or sheets) without a license... should they feel threatened by this stance?

I've started work on a modification of the 22 inch Enterprise model kit to match my plans of the lost 33 inch model of the Enterprise, and I have been asked to make copies of those parts for others. Should I be worried if I sell those parts?

I took a ton of time to draw up those 33 inch plans, and even though I've made digital versions available, I might want to sell printed copies. Should I be worried? I'm spending tons of time right now working on plans of the 11 foot model, and even though I have shared my digital sketches and will share a digital version of the final product, I might want to sell printed copies. Again, should I be worried?

Of course neither of those blue print projects are of the starship Enterprise... both were of the effects models of the Enterprise (one of which is lost and the other the property of the American people). But I'm working on deck plans of the starship Enterprise, which moves from historical documentation of artifacts to a more fictional realm... is that a project I should be concerned with?

I totally understand if someone takes someone else's hard work and attempts to pass it off as their own... I've had people try to do that with my work. That we should all be worried about (and attempting to stop it). But ideas and concepts within Trek as a whole, if you've put it out there, then you've shared them for others to make derivative works from them. We are all fans here, and nothing here is really claimable but our own workmanship.

I suppose since none of my work is up there (the beauty of being a lowly freehanded sketcher I suppose) I don't have a stake in this...

By the same token I would be more concerned about him making sales of Paramount official trek designs without their knowledge, because CBS and Paramount have been very gracious in letting fans play around in their sandbox with art, fan film productions and so forth. I'd consider a report to them about it if for no other reason than to neutralize a possible threat to the rest of the fans because one person is playing with fire and making a profit - just as I would if comeone from the fan film community was hawking DVDs on their website without permission and so forth.

When I was in the first grade my parents bought me a beautiful hand drawn (charcoal on canvas, about 36" by 24") framed portrait of Mr. Spock. But because that artist was selling his work you would take steps to shut him down?

In the 1970s and 1980s I went to a lot of conventions, and there were quite a few blue prints for sale (including some from Michael McMaster like the bridge blue prints)... none of which were authorized by Paramount. But because those artists were selling their work you would take steps to shut them down?

At the same conventions I saw beautiful hand made prop replicas... none of which were authorized by Paramount. But because those artists were selling their work you would take steps to shut them down?

Today we have people making replacement parts for existing kits, decals and even garage kits of ships none of the major model kit makers would touch... all selling their work and none of which were authorized by Paramount. Are you saying that you are going to take steps to shut them down?

If this forum is taking the stance that this type of derivative work is reason for trying to shut people down, then maybe I should voluntarily back off from my own derivative works. Because it seems that in this environment I could get an unwelcome knock on my door (or an unwelcome letter in the mail).