Wonder Woman animated DVD

[CaptainCanada]

If they are human, they are NOT supposed to live with one gender, if they are supposed to live as one-gender, they are NOT human.

What part of "they were created as a special civilization by the gods" do you not understand? They're biologically indistinct (generally, anyway; the ones in this film have some level of superhuman stamina, but that's probably a god-gifted thing).

Except that they're NOT human, and so have no idea of HUMAN problems. It's easy to talk about respect and cooperation if you're a bunch of genetically engineered freaks designed to have just one culture, no differences.

As non-humans who have no idea how the human mind and world works, they have nothing to teach us.

They're quite human. They have the same fears, hopes, dreams, as other people. They have the key to a cooperative society.

Your view of societal relations is remarkably narrow, I must say; different species in sci-fi relate and teach each other things all the time, and the difference between Amazon and regular civilization is far less than that.

 

[Samuel T. Cogley]

Your view of societal relations is remarkably narrow...

Also, everything else.

 

[3D Master]

If they are human, they are NOT supposed to live with one gender, if they are supposed to live as one-gender, they are NOT human.

What part of "they were created as a special civilization by the gods" do you not understand? They're biologically indistinct (generally, anyway; the ones in this film have some level of superhuman stamina, but that's probably a god-gifted thing).

Who they are created by, matters not. If they are human, they are NOT meant to live with just one gender, if they are meant to live with just one gender, they are NOT human.

It's that simple.

Biology does not lie, it simply is.

Except that they're NOT human, and so have no idea of HUMAN problems. It's easy to talk about respect and cooperation if you're a bunch of genetically engineered freaks designed to have just one culture, no differences.

As non-humans who have no idea how the human mind and world works, they have nothing to teach us.

They're quite human. They have the same fears, hopes, dreams, as other people. They have the key to a cooperative society.

If they are meant to live with just one gender, they are NOT human.

Your view of societal relations is remarkably narrow, I must say; different species in sci-fi relate and teach each other things all the time, and the difference between Amazon and regular civilization is far less than that.

When the species has significant similarities with humans, and even then it is rarely.

And no, there are far greater and more massive differences between Amazon and regular civilization: they live on god-governed, god-created, perfect piece of land with ONLY ONE GENDER!!

Any alien species that ever had something learned from them, they actually had THE SAME PROBLEMS to deal with; the Amazons never had to deal with ANY problem. The gods did it all for them, and the one problem their representative claims to come teach us; equality, they never even seen one from another gender. If there's anyone teaching anyone anything about interaction between genders, it's us teaching them.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

They can mate with men, but there are no Amazon men. They're quite happy that way, generally. To suggest otherwise is to say that women need men to be happy.

At least as far as this DTDVD goes, there WERE "Amazon men", but they were all killed.

And isn't really one of the subtexts exactly what you are decrying...women can no more be complete without men than men can be without women...that's why they should treasure and respect each other.

It was the denial of the need for men over the centuries that led Persephone down the dark path of falling in love with Ares. And it was obvious that Diana was not going to be happy without Steve.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

Again, wrong. They know quite a bit about running a successful society based on mutal respect and cooperation;

as long as you're an Amazon female

such a message of equality is gender-irrelevant.

It would be if they practiced what they preached.

There is no denying that as presented (esp in this DVD), there is a thread of misandry present among the Amazons, esp Hyppolita ("let me show you the true darkness that lurks in the heart of ALL men").

If you want to argue that it's understandable, considering their origins, I'm at least part way with you. The Amazon society is basically a support group for abused women that gets stalled out half way through the healing process.

By taking them out of the timestream and isolating them, the Gods prevented them from "getting back on the horse" as it were. Their idyllic isolation made it possible for them to live in a state of perpetual semi-denial, and kept them from facing their fears and working through them.

 

[ancient]

They're Amazons; they were created to live in a one-gendered society, like Valkyries. They can mate with men, but there are no Amazon men. They're quite happy that way, generally. To suggest otherwise is to say that women need men to be happy.

Well, men need women to be happy! At least this man does! So I think that's a pretty damn reasonable suggestion.

Or do all Amazons lack hormones or something?

 

[Samuel T. Cogley]

Or do all Amazons lack hormones or something?

If they do, I'm on my way!

No wonder they call it "Paradise Island."

 

[darkwing_duck1]

Or do all Amazons lack hormones or something?

If they do, I'm on my way!

No wonder they call it "Paradise Island."

Take it how you will, but there have been enough half-lines and innuendoes dropped over the years that it's safe to say that Thymiscera is far from being a convent.

 

[CaptainCanada]

There is no denying that as presented (esp in this DVD), there is a thread of misandry present among the Amazons, esp Hyppolita ("let me show you the true darkness that lurks in the heart of ALL men").

Well, yes, definitely in this DVD, but that's intentional on their part, and it's not the right way to approach the character.

Who they are created by, matters not. If they are human, they are NOT meant to live with just one gender

Except they are. The gods created all life on earth, and they created the Amazons to live the way they do.

 

[Praetor]

My problem was making her a thief/runaway rather than the winner of the Contest, and then, going even further, having the Amazons actually exile her from home for saving all their asses. That totally changes everything the character is about (not to mention making her an angry bitch with none of the character's grace or intelligence).

Yeah, that bothered me too. If they still wanted to have her leave in a rush and steal the suit (and omit more aspects of her origin from the pilot), I think it might have been more interesting had they prompted her to return to the island soon after. Then, Hippolyta decides that the time has come for the Amazons to be more proactive in the world, through a representative.

Someone (Artemis) suggests they hold the contest to determine who should be an ambassador to man's world. They agree to allow Diana to participate since she basically saved them, but Hippolyta tries to get Diana not to. Diana ends up disguising herself and completing the competition, and Hippolyta tells her she has earned the right in every way. No banishment, no bitterness, but she's still a girl away from home for the rest of the series.

Perhaps this would have made a good companion story for the episodes featuring Hades' escape at the hands of Felilx Faust, if done a bit differently? The competition could have even been interrupted by Hades' release, only to have it completed at the end.

And I'm still annoyed that Flash, Hawkgirl, and GL never got as much origin attention as they deserved.

 

[Ceridwen]

They are HUMAN. And human means 2 genders. Miss one gender, and you by definition do not have a paradise.

This just isn't true, even in the real world. There are, and have been throughout history, many cultures with more than two genders. And if you're conflating gender with sex, you're still wrong, given the more than seventy million intersex people that exist worldwide (and that's a low estimate). Even in America, there are plenty of people who exist in single sex communities, or who live life as a third gender, and they're doing just fine.

 

[Hermiod]

Your view of societal relations is remarkably narrow...

Also, everything else.

Except that he's been right all along.

 

[3D Master]

Who they are created by, matters not. If they are human, they are NOT meant to live with just one gender

Except they are. The gods created all life on earth

The gods did not create all life on Earth. We evolved here. And it's our faith, our minds, in turn, that created the gods, and without us to sustain them, the gods simply blink out of existence.

, and they created the Amazons to live the way they do.

And thus they are not human, their brains do not work the way a human's does, they lack a critical part, and therefor they can't teach us a damn thing.

They are HUMAN. And human means 2 genders. Miss one gender, and you by definition do not have a paradise.

This just isn't true, even in the real world. There are, and have been throughout history, many cultures with more than two genders. And if you're conflating gender with sex, you're still wrong, given the more than seventy million intersex people that exist worldwide (and that's a low estimate). Even in America, there are plenty of people who exist in single sex communities, or who live life as a third gender, and they're doing just fine.

And where did I claim that people never lived with only one sex? No where. Where did I claim that people couldn't isolate themselves from another sex? No where. Just because humans can do it, doesn't mean they were meant to. And all those places, aren't paradises.

 

[Jeyl]

The gods created all life on earth

The gods did not create all life on Earth. We evolved here. And it's our faith, our minds, in turn, that created the gods, and without us to sustain them, the gods simply blink out of existence.

I believe CaptainCanada was speaking in context to the comic book lore of Wonder Woman.

And thus they are not human, their brains do not work the way a human's does, they lack a critical part, and therefor they can't teach us a damn thing.

Spoken like a true Amazon*.

Yes. A society comprised of thinking beings who can communicate and learn cannot possibly teach us humans anything. That statement is flat out discriminating cause the only thing you're using against the amazons is that they're different. The human race has as much to learn from the Amazon society as does the Amazons to the modern human society.

*Based on your point of view.

 

[Ceridwen]

And where did I claim that people never lived with only one sex? No where. Where did I claim that people couldn't isolate themselves from another sex? No where. Just because humans can do it, doesn't mean they were meant to. And all those places, aren't paradises.

From your point of view. It ultimately depends on what you want from your paradise.

Really, my problem was more with the wrong, wrong, wrong "being human means two genders" part of your argument. I hope your consternation with the fact that the Amazons live in a single gendered society might make you a little more sympathetic to those of us who feel ostracized by the binary gendered system Western society holds as "the one and only".

 

[Hermiod]

^I think the point that most of us who object to the way the Amazons, not just in DC Comics but the various incarnations of them in our culture, are presented is that they cannot possibly know anything about creating a egalitarian society when they are not one themselves.

Remember Sisko's "the problem is Earth" speech from "The Maquis" ? It's the same thing. How can someone from a paradise like Earth relate to the problems on Bajor ? And how can a person from a society that by definition has no men relate to a society where men and women live together ? In the real world, as you say, there are men, women and a lot of steps in between.

Ignoring the gender issue too, they cannot relate to a society where the majority of people are not warriors and choose not to follow that path.

Now, some people will point out various issues here and there where some Amazons accepted specific men or men were allowed on to the island, but the overall premise of the Amazons in DC Comics is that they do not accept men as their equals, brothers or friends. The very fact that they refer to the outside world as "man's world" shows their prejudice.

You cannot show these people to be heroic or good when they believe in the total superiority of one group of people above another. Sorry if I'm going to Godwin the thread here, but that's Facism. Teaching little kids that women are better than men or men are better than women or dogs are better than cats is destructive.

 

[3D Master]

The gods created all life on earth

The gods did not create all life on Earth. We evolved here. And it's our faith, our minds, in turn, that created the gods, and without us to sustain them, the gods simply blink out of existence.

I believe CaptainCanada was speaking in context to the comic book lore of Wonder Woman.

That IS the comic book lore of Wonder Woman. That truth and logic, in fact, is what allowed Wonder Woman to stop Ares in the comic book. Start WWIII, all humanity dies, there's no one left to know of the gods, and thus the gods die. Once she points this out to Ares, Ares stops his plans, and remolds himself from the God of War, to the God of Strife.

And thus they are not human, their brains do not work the way a human's does, they lack a critical part, and therefor they can't teach us a damn thing.

Spoken like a true Amazon*.

Yes. A society comprised of thinking beings who can communicate and learn cannot possibly teach us humans anything. That statement is flat out discriminating cause the only thing you're using against the amazons is that they're different. The human race has as much to learn from the Amazon society as does the Amazons to the modern human society.

*Based on your point of view.

They did not learn anything! They were simply created by the gods to operate as such. There's nothing there that can teach us anything, because we're not created to perfectly fit in a perfect society, perfectly fitted to the environment.

There's nothing they learned. They simply are. They only thing they might be able to teach, is total submission to the Greek gods, and we begging them to change us to perfectly fit the Earth, and then hope they do.

And where did I claim that people never lived with only one sex? No where. Where did I claim that people couldn't isolate themselves from another sex? No where. Just because humans can do it, doesn't mean they were meant to. And all those places, aren't paradises.

From your point of view. It ultimately depends on what you want from your paradise.

No. I haven't talked about what I want from any paradise at all. The only things I've been talking about, is cold hard biological fact.

Really, my problem was more with the wrong, wrong, wrong "being human means two genders" part of your argument.

It's not wrong, it's RIGHT. It's a simple cold hard biological fact.

I hope your consternation with the fact that the Amazons live in a single gendered society

Unffing believeable. I have no consternation with the fact that the Amazons live in a single-sex society, they can live in any society they want to. However, that does not mean they can teach us how to live with the other gender.

might make you a little more sympathetic to those of us who feel ostracized by the binary gendered system Western society holds as "the one and only".

There is no binary-gendered system of Western society. There is the binary-sex system of our BIOLOGY. We've got two sexes, and the sexes were meant to live together; if they didn't, we'd have gone extinct a long time ago.

 

[Ceridwen]

might make you a little more sympathetic to those of us who feel ostracized by the binary gendered system Western society holds as "the one and only".

There is no binary-gendered system of Western society. There is the binary-sex system of our BIOLOGY. We've got two sexes, and the sexes were meant to live together; if they didn't, we'd have gone extinct a long time ago.

If you mean gender, say gender. If you mean sex, say sex. You've been using the two terms interchangably, but they're two different words for a reason.

Gender is a social construct, and many societies have had many, many different ways of constructing it. Ours (currently) has two (men and women), but there are (and have been throughout history) cultures that include three genders, five genders, etc. (It makes me wonder if the Amazons themselves have ascribed different gender roles to different people, despite being a single sex society, but I doubt there are any comic writers thinking about it that closely.)

Sex seems to be what you're talking about, but even there, you're still wrong. Even on a physical level, there is a huge amount of diversity in the human condition beyond simply "male" and "female". There are more than a dozen different intersex conditions identified by scientists today, and according to current estimates, about one in one-hundred live births are intersex. Your model of what's "human" discards almost seventy million people world wide (and, again, that's not even getting into gender, and the numerous different ways besides "man" and "woman" that societies group themselves).

 

[3D Master]

might make you a little more sympathetic to those of us who feel ostracized by the binary gendered system Western society holds as "the one and only".

There is no binary-gendered system of Western society. There is the binary-sex system of our BIOLOGY. We've got two sexes, and the sexes were meant to live together; if they didn't, we'd have gone extinct a long time ago.

If you mean gender, say gender. If you mean sex, say sex. You've been using the two terms interchangably, but they're two different words for a reason.

Gender is a social construct, and many societies have had many, many different ways of constructing it. Ours (currently) has two (men and women), but there are (and have been throughout history) cultures that include three genders, five genders, etc. (It makes me wonder if the Amazons themselves have ascribed different gender roles to different people, despite being a single sex society, but I doubt there are any comic writers thinking about it that closely.)

Sex seems to be what you're talking about, but even there, you're still wrong. Even on a physical level, there is a huge amount of diversity in the human condition beyond simply "male" and "female". There are more than a dozen different intersex conditions identified by scientists today, and according to current estimates, about one in one-hundred live births are intersex. Your model of what's "human" discards almost seventy million people world wide (and, again, that's not even getting into gender, and the numerous different ways besides "man" and "woman" that societies group themselves).

:sighs:

We're not busy with a scientific discussion here that requires every single nuance nature can throw at us. We're talking about Amazon who live without men, and the rest of us, who live with both men and women. Hell, science themselves discussing things with simplified terms, and only then goes a step further and discussing a next level of difficulty after they've either come to a consensus of the simplification, or they find they can't meaningfully discuss things without the deeper level.

 

[Jeyl]

We're talking about Amazon who live without men, and the rest of us, who live with both men and women.

Well, not ALL of us. Would having restrooms that allow both men and women make you happy?

We're not busy with a scientific discussion here that requires every single nuance nature can throw at us. LATERHell, science themselves discussing things with simplified terms, and only then goes a step further and discussing a next level of difficulty after they've either come to a consensus of the simplification, or they find they can't meaningfully discuss things without the deeper level.

What does that even mean? Are you saying that if scientists can't figure out why women like to live with women and not men that it should be considered unnatural and illogical?