Wonder Woman animated DVD

[CaptainCanada]

They can't leave!

Yes they can. Whether they come or go is purely a matter of their choice; Hippolyta doesn't want to leave, and while some might find it interesting to go seek action, they'd rather stay with everybody else in their group. Persephone is obviously to the point where she just wants to leave, so she could just ask.

 

[ancient]

If they're enlightened drop the monarchy/warrior culture/all female/isolationist angle.

The depictions of the government have varied over the years (obviously), but the Perez version clearly depicted a semi-constitutional government that had a Senate-type thing, albeit with a reasonably activist monarch (who is, after all, divinely-ordained); law of character economy usually shrinks that to "Diana's mom calls the shots" (notwithstanding the period where they were a republic from 2002-2007).

Well, I guess a monarchy with a Greek female Jesus-type in charge couldn't be all bad, though it'd be a model impossible to follow. Unless you 'converted' or whatever the proper term for joining a god-run country would be.

I'm guessing Atheists don't exist in the DC universe, that's another side effect of having Amazons and Greek gods, not to mention Christian stand-ins and Norse gods running around your planet. In our world the whole Amazon concept would be treated like Scientology or something. In the DC universe they're just another group of blessed/god-themed people.

They prize martial skill, but they also prize learning and culture; they're meant to be the perfect package.

Depending on who's writing the story that month, of course...That's a weakness of corporate-run character stories though. Superman's backstory seems to change every year.

They're all female because they were created that way and it's what the Amazon myth that Marston spun in a different way was.

I don't have a problem with all the Amazons being female since it is true to the Greek myth (oddball as it may be), but they should definitely have open boarders to people seeking knowledge, male or female. And the possibility should be left open for male Amazons. If you want to go with the enlightened angle.

The isolationist angle's already been dropped from the comics, in general; they started receiving delegations from the outside world in the late 80s.

The DCAU picked the former, mainly since it provides a source of conflict, while being true to the details of the whole Amazon myth. Of course, it did logically make the Amazons villain-like, with Wonder Woman being an outcast.

Which gutted the character (par for the course for the DCAU's treatment of Wonder Woman).

I thought the character from DCAU was good. At least she got some backstory, whereas Flash, Hawkgirl, and John Stewart just sort of materialized with no introduction or backstory at all. She isn't the same character as the one from modern comics, she was actually leaving the island for the first time in JL, so I think she shouldn't be the 'ambassador' character on day one. She left to kick butt, but evolved into the ambassador of truth character a bit later in JLU.

Though any episode centering around the Amazons was pure pain, I agree on that. Wonder Woman I thought was fine, but that episode where she gets banished for saving the world by bringing supermen to the island was terrible. It boiled down to "Thank you for saving the world, but you gave us cooties, DO NOT WANT!"

Same goes for the episode with the crazy adopted Amazon who decides to kill all the men in the world. Could there be a more dumbass EVIIIIIL femnazi character? Nothing about those episodes really rang true.

 

[3D Master]

They can't leave!

Yes they can. Whether they come or go is purely a matter of their choice; Hippolyta doesn't want to leave, and while some might find it interesting to go seek action, they'd rather stay with everybody else in their group. Persephone is obviously to the point where she just wants to leave, so she could just ask.

Again, they can't leave. Haven't you seen the movie? A hidden island, is not a place where you get to walk away from.

 

[CaptainCanada]

I don't have a problem with all the Amazons being female since it is true to the Greek myth (oddball as it may be), but they should definitely have open boarders to people seeking knowledge, male or female. And the possibility should be left open for male Amazons. If you want to go with the enlightened angle.

They've done those in the comics at various points (like you say, there's a lot of variance; adaptations should focus on the best versions; nobody argues for the Spider-Man cartoons to be based on the crazy version who called himself 'The Spider' and smacked MJ around).

I disliked the DCAU type for totally changing her personality and inverting the whole concept of the character.

Again, they can't leave. Haven't you seen the movie? A hidden island, is not a place where you get to walk away from.

There's a fairly remarkable piece of technology available to them: the boat.

Or, really, the inexplicable jet; just have another Amazon give them a lift to the mainland.

 

[ancient]

I don't have a problem with all the Amazons being female since it is true to the Greek myth (oddball as it may be), but they should definitely have open boarders to people seeking knowledge, male or female. And the possibility should be left open for male Amazons. If you want to go with the enlightened angle.

They've done those in the comics at various points (like you say, there's a lot of variance; adaptations should focus on the best versions; nobody argues for the Spider-Man cartoons to be based on the crazy version who called himself 'The Spider' and smacked MJ around).

A lot of people seem to like the really crazy version of Batman though.

I disliked the DCAU type for totally changing her personality and inverting the whole concept of the character.

I think they were trying to give her a character arc which is really impossible if the character starts out perfect. They needed a quick and dirty way to pull her into the team, so rather than coming out as an ambassador, she came out to stop aliens from killing everyone. It's an easier to follow, more explosion-filled way to intro the character in a cartoon where there are six other main characters.

They also depowered and "un-boyscouted" Superman a bit, which caused some complaints, but I thought he was fine too. Even if he started out really clumsy with his powers, even in JL. And they turned Jor'El into a sort of action hero, which is kind of funny.

 

[CaptainCanada]

I think they were trying to give her a character arc which is really impossible if the character starts out perfect. They needed a quick and dirty way to pull her into the team, so rather than coming out as an ambassador, she came out to stop aliens from killing everyone. It's an easier to follow, more explosion-filled way to intro the character in a cartoon where there are six other main characters.

Oh, I don't have a problem with that. In fact, none of the versions begin with her just being sent out as an ambassador; there's always an immediate threat (Mars/Ares) that promts her dispatch. Making it aliens isn't a problem.

My problem was making her a thief/runaway rather than the winner of the Contest, and then, going even further, having the Amazons actually exile her from home for saving all their asses. That totally changes everything the character is about (not to mention making her an angry bitch with none of the character's grace or intelligence).

 

[CaptainCanada]

And they should be repressive. Their society doesn't make much sense if they aren't.

They're a paradise; being repressive is the exact opposite of that.

 

[3D Master]

Again, they can't leave. Haven't you seen the movie? A hidden island, is not a place where you get to walk away from.

There's a fairly remarkable piece of technology available to them: the boat.

Or, really, the inexplicable jet; just have another Amazon give them a lift to the mainland.

And AGAIN: they're not allowed to leave, and thus use any of those technologies, because they are HIDDEN AWAY from the rest of the world. Which part of hidden away don't you get?

And they should be repressive. Their society doesn't make much sense if they aren't.

They're a paradise; being repressive is the exact opposite of that.

They only CLAIM to be a paradise. And then you get to see a closer look.

A paradise, of humans, without an entire half that is essential to humanity, an entire gender gone.

They were never a paradise.

 

[CaptainCanada]

And AGAIN: they're not allowed to leave, and thus use any of those technologies, because they are HIDDEN AWAY from the rest of the world. Which part of hidden away don't you get?

What part of "they come and go at will" do you not get? Diana leaves to take Steve home, and Hippolyta's decision. The entire Amazon army leaves later, at Hippolyta's decision. At the end, Hippolyta decides to send Diana out again. Clearly, the only thing keeping them there is Hippolyta's wishes. All Persephone would need to do is ask her.

A paradise, of humans, without an entire half that is essential to humanity, an entire gender gone.

No, they're a paradise of Amazons, created by the gods as a single-gendered civilization. They don't need anyone apart from themselves.

They were never a paradise.

Yes they are. That's the whole point. William Marston's message was that they are a superior civilization living in paradise who sent an emissary to fight to end war in the far less paradisical world. George Perez, likewise.

 

[Samuel T. Cogley]

Just watched the DVD. I liked it.

Wonder Woman is one of those characters that I always want to like, but her stories are often bland, and her character unrelatable.

This was more accessible, more fun, and more real. She felt like a real person, which she usually does not.

The mythology stuff always bores me, so that's a hurdle that I can't usually avoid when dealing with Wonder Woman.

Also, this was pretty racy and violent for a DC project. And I liked that!

 

[3D Master]

And AGAIN: they're not allowed to leave, and thus use any of those technologies, because they are HIDDEN AWAY from the rest of the world. Which part of hidden away don't you get?

What part of "they come and go at will" do you not get? Diana leaves to take Steve home, and Hippolyta's decision. The entire Amazon army leaves later, at Hippolyta's decision. At the end, Hippolyta decides to send Diana out again. Clearly, the only thing keeping them there is Hippolyta's wishes. All Persephone would need to do is ask her.

They do NOT come and go at will. They only go, when they have no other choice.

A paradise, of humans, without an entire half that is essential to humanity, an entire gender gone.

No, they're a paradise of Amazons, created by the gods as a single-gendered civilization. They don't need anyone apart from themselves.

Well, you're wrong. It doesn't matter who created them, as what or for what. They are HUMAN. And human means 2 genders. Miss one gender, and you by definition do not have a paradise.

On top of that, the movie's Amazons were not created by the gods; they had husbands that were killed Ares and his cronies, what remained were the women and they were stuffed on an island.

They were never a paradise.

Yes they are. That's the whole point. William Marston's message was that they are a superior civilization living in paradise who sent an emissary to fight to end war in the far less paradisical world. George Perez, likewise.

They were not a paradise, they only THINK they're a paradise. The whole concept is flawed from beginning to end. "I come from a civilization with no men, I've never seen a man till I set foot on your shores, but I've come to tell you, how men and women should live together."

 

[darkwing_duck1]

Leaving aside the MULTI-PAGE OT group rant about which writer intended what meaning vis a vis the Amazons:

I just finished the DVD a bit ago. In and of itself it was pretty good. I had two problems. Steve Trevor spent most of the film either as a cad or a goof, which undercut the alleged theme of discovering the similarities between genders and finding common ground. Instead they chose to do a simple role inversion through most of the film, making Steve not much more than a sidekick.

I also would have liked to have seen shots of the Amazons and the Army fighting side by side, even coming to one anothers' aid. It would have gone a long way towards paying off the "discovering that we're not so different" angle, and helped explain why the Amazons were cheering the Steve/Diana kiss rather than the shocked silence I would have expected.

 

[CaptainCanada]

They do NOT come and go at will. They only go, when they have no other choice.

What are you talking about? At the end, Hippolyta admits that she was wrong to keep their civilization hidden, which means it was merely her choice; and so she sends Diana out. Persephone's line has no weight if the matter was never in Hippolyta's hands.

Well, you're wrong. It doesn't matter who created them, as what or for what.

Yes it does. They're Amazons, created as one gender and they've always been quite happy that way. You're imposing your own paradise on theirs, which is a fundamental error that many writers make. You can't approach the concept that way.

On top of that, the movie's Amazons were not created by the gods; they had husbands that were killed Ares and his cronies, what remained were the women and they were stuffed on an island.

Which isn't their proper origin.

They were not a paradise, they only THINK they're a paradise.

No, it's a paradise; that's the whole premise of Wonder Woman.

"I come from a civilization with no men, I've never seen a man till I set foot on your shores, but I've come to tell you, how men and women should live together."

She's there to tell them how people should live together, with emphasis on women being treated equally.

 

[3D Master]

They do NOT come and go at will. They only go, when they have no other choice.

What are you talking about? At the end, Hippolyta admits that she was wrong to keep their civilization hidden, which means it was merely her choice; and so she sends Diana out. Persephone's line has no weight if the matter was never in Hippolyta's hands.

Yes, and she's the queen! So if she says nobody goes, nobody goes.

Well, you're wrong. It doesn't matter who created them, as what or for what.

Yes it does. They're Amazons, created as one gender and they've always been quite happy that way. You're imposing your own paradise on theirs, which is a fundamental error that many writers make. You can't approach the concept that way.

Amazons are not another species that has just one gender, and procreates with one-gender. They are human, they therefor have TWO genders, just like everyone else of us. And no, I'm not imposing anyone's paradise on anyone's non-paradise. I'm imposing the facts of biology.

Which isn't their proper origin.

Couldn't care less.

They were not a paradise, they only THINK they're a paradise.

No, it's a paradise; that's the whole premise of Wonder Woman.

Couldn't care less.

"I come from a civilization with no men, I've never seen a man till I set foot on your shores, but I've come to tell you, how men and women should live together."

She's there to tell them how people should live together, with emphasis on women being treated equally.

That's not what the dialog in the comics say.

 

[CaptainCanada]

Yes, and she's the queen! So if she says nobody goes, nobody goes.

All it would take would be for Persephone to ask Hippolyta for permission to leave and explain her situation; Hippolyta's not an evil dictator. There's nothing keeping her there. She could leave at will, but she doesn't; instead, she acts like there's no way out and turns evil.

All it would have taken:

"I wish to have a family, and, respecting the choice that we dwell here, I would like to leave for the mainland."
"Sure, we'll give you a lift to the shore."

Problem solved.

Amazons are not another species that has just one gender, and procreates with one-gender. They are human, they therefor have TWO genders, just like everyone else of us. And no, I'm not imposing anyone's paradise on anyone's non-paradise. I'm imposing the facts of biology.

They're Amazons; they were created to live in a one-gendered society, like Valkyries. They can mate with men, but there are no Amazon men. They're quite happy that way, generally. To suggest otherwise is to say that women need men to be happy.

 

[Jeyl]

She's there to tell them how people should live together, with emphasis on women being treated equally.

That's not what the dialog in the comics say.

And now ladies and gentlemen, a quote from Wonder Woman herself in the #25 December, 2008 issue of Wonder Woman, pages 9-18.

Wonder Woman is observing the set of the new "Wonder Woman The Movie" and notices that her character as a child is being taught by her fellow Amazons to fear man.
Wonder Woman: Why is it that people feel that a belief in women equals a hatred of men?

And in response to the actors playing the Amazons chanting "KILL THE MEN!"
Wonder Woman: Well, this is a diplomatic nightmare. The world already fears my people.

And my favorite bit which is not without irony

Wonder Woman has confronted the source behind this production and realizes that everything is not just fake but a very bad depiction of her true story
Wonder Woman: Like so much else in this hellish production. Straight to video, no doubt. (Few scenes later) I must confess the entire production has led me to an epiphany that waiting a while for a good movie is better than having a terrible one today.

See? Even Wonder Woman knows how to tell when a movie misrepresents her and her people!

 

[CaptainCanada]

Heh, I loved that issue. Simone's 'big' plots have only been so-so, but the Queen of Fables two-parter was pure fun.

 

[3D Master]

Yes, and she's the queen! So if she says nobody goes, nobody goes.

All it would take would be for Persephone to ask Hippolyta for permission to leave and explain her situation; Hippolyta's not an evil dictator. There's nothing keeping her there. She could leave at will, but she doesn't; instead, she acts like there's no way out and turns evil.

All it would have taken:

"I wish to have a family, and, respecting the choice that we dwell here, I would like to leave for the mainland."
"Sure, we'll give you a lift to the shore."

Problem solved.

Says you. Simple fact is, that Hyppolita decided the Amazons would be hidden away from the human world. If Amazons simply get to pack up and leave, it isn't very hidden. She would have told her 'no' no doubt. And the fact is, that Hyppolita being a queen in the old world's mold, is by definition a dictator. She alone holds the power, she says something, it's done.

Amazons are not another species that has just one gender, and procreates with one-gender. They are human, they therefor have TWO genders, just like everyone else of us. And no, I'm not imposing anyone's paradise on anyone's non-paradise. I'm imposing the facts of biology.

They're Amazons; they were created to live in a one-gendered society, like Valkyries. They can mate with men, but there are no Amazon men. They're quite happy that way, generally. To suggest otherwise is to say that women need men to be happy.

"Created to live in a one-gendered society."

Does that mean they are NOT human? Because humans are NOT created to live in a one-gendered society.

If they are NOT human, they do NOT live in a human paradise even if they live in their non-human paradise, and they have NOTHING to say or to teach a HUMAN world about how to live together let alone with multiple genders.

 

[CaptainCanada]

If Amazons simply get to pack up and leave, it isn't very hidden.

Why would Persephone go blabbing about where she's from? Why would anyone believe her? Even if they did, why would it matter, no one can get on the island unless the Amazons let them in.

Does that mean they are NOT human? Because humans are NOT created to live in a one-gendered society.

Biologically they're human, but they were created special-order by a cabal to live as they currently do; they're Amazons.

If they are NOT human, they do NOT live in a human paradise even if they live in their non-human paradise, and they have NOTHING to say or to teach a HUMAN world about how to live together let alone with multiple genders.

Again, wrong. They know quite a bit about running a successful society based on mutal respect and cooperation; such a message of equality is gender-irrelevant.

 

[3D Master]

If Amazons simply get to pack up and leave, it isn't very hidden.

Why would Persephone go blabbing about where she's from? Why would anyone believe her? Even if they did, why would it matter, no one can get on the island unless the Amazons let them in.

Completely besides the point.

Does that mean they are NOT human? Because humans are NOT created to live in a one-gendered society.

Biologically they're human, but they were created special-order by a cabal to live as they currently do; they're Amazons.

If they are human, they are NOT supposed to live with one gender, if they are supposed to live as one-gender, they are NOT human.

If they are NOT human, they do NOT live in a human paradise even if they live in their non-human paradise, and they have NOTHING to say or to teach a HUMAN world about how to live together let alone with multiple genders.

Again, wrong. They know quite a bit about running a successful society based on mutal respect and cooperation; such a message of equality is gender-irrelevant.

Except that they're NOT human, and so have no idea of HUMAN problems. It's easy to talk about respect and cooperation if you're a bunch of genetically engineered freaks designed to have just one culture, no differences.

As non-humans who have no idea how the human mind and world works, they have nothing to teach us.